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Lets privatise the NHS

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Applying to Uni? Let Universities come to you. Click here to get your perfect place 20-10-2014
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    I'm not against privatisation (bring on the negs ) but a hospital would be pretty difficult to turn into a profit center not mention the entire NHS. The American system isn't particulary brilliant anyway, I've heard some of our NHS hopsitals are better than their 'top' hospitals.
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    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    Trying to help everyone isn't working.
    Yes it is.

    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    The fact that there is a demand for healthcare from people on low incomes would mean that their would be a supply of healthcare for them as well.
    Not if they cannot afford it!

    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    Just because their is only one hospital in a town, doesn't mean their cant be doctors from say, four different companies working their. Or even more maybe?

    People would have choice, their should be strong and genuine competition in the healthcare market place.
    And if you are unconscious, how do you decide what doctor treat you?
    And there would not be competition. Not anything useful anyway.
    Generally, competition relies on differentiating on quality. What you are saying is that we should force those who are not well off to have **** healthcare, just because of their bank balance.

    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    the desire of people to get high quality healthcare
    You are ignoring the fact that many people would not be able to afford high quality healthcare.

    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    You mean, your post.

    I am here to discuss the idea of a private healthcare system in the UK.

    I don't want to respond to personal cases and get dragged in a battle by someone trying to emotionally black mail me in to holding a certain opinion.
    Lol. You are trying to wriggle out of that one.
    You claim that people need healthcare because of their own poor choices.
    And as such you think people should have to pay for that.
    You ignore the fact that people people need healthcare for reasons way beyond their control.
    And then when someone brings you up on that, you just ignore then.
    You are not very good at this debating thing are you.

    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    Is it really so bad that a very small number of people suffer so a majority of people can wreak greater benefits?
    So you are happy for the poor to die on your doorstep because they cannot afford healthcare?
    What about spreading diseases to you that they cannot afford to get treated?

    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    Any private healthcare system would of course have charity help those who need it.
    And what happens when charity is not enough?

    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    Also I stated that US provided higher quality of healthcare when it did.
    If you have the money that is.
    And even then, the NHS does a pretty damn good job considering the money spent (the US system costs the US government TWICE AS MUCH per person than the NHS costs that, and even then people have to pay thousands to get treatment. Doesn't seem a good deal once you actually look at how much more it costs.
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    Dave,

    Think about this: with private healthcare, healthcare coverage will diminish, so that, say, a quarter are without healthcare. These are certain to be the poorest (and so, manual labourers and the like)

    Such a huge number of people will avoid paying for healthcare because of its incredible expense, and so will spend very long periods off sick. Therefore they will be unable to work.

    Under private healthcare, then, the amount of tax revenue will contract, meaning we will be worse off, as a nation, in tax revenue, than with state healthcare.
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    And did you even respond to the posts I made last night?
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    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    I know my view is part of very small minority and this is going to be very unpopular, but I thought I would share it and see what happens.

    So the government is currently in the process of overhauling the NHS. As we all know the NHS is in crisis, anyone thinks otherwise is simply short sighted. But I think more drastic changes need to take place.

    Right now the government punish those who work hard and are involved in private enterprise, via means of redistribution of taxes on the rich to pay for health care for all. And also those who use private health care continue to pay national insurance. We don't need this, and everyone should be on a level playing field via private healthcare. That way we get a better quality of treatment for all.

    Privatatisation will give everyone a chance to become a shareholder in the a private health service. This means that the health companies will be more accountable to you, because without the approval of there customers they are unlikely to turn a profit.

    A wider range of treatments will be available, drugs that can’t be found on the NHS will become more accessible in the country.

    People will change their life styles, eating habits, increase the amount they exercise etc etc, because they know that living in an irresponsible manner will end up costing them money and no one else.

    With the population getting older by the day, the government can ill afford to keep on the NHS as tax money should be spent else where. So its important that massive private investment takes place as soon as possible. Private health care will provide a higher standard of care and insure that the population of the UK gets the health care it deserves.

    edit: I am willing to let my opinion be changed slightly. But bear in mind I have strong believes in a free market and the decentralization of the government which isn't going to change. Also since 99% of people are completely against this, I really cant awsner every single question, seen as I am on my own here. But anyway you get the gist of what I think from this post I hope.



    YES, Yes, yes :P let's get on with it. Bring on an insurance based system, lets have some progress in this anachronistic machine.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    Yes it is.

    .
    My expirience (and my families and friends) with the NHS has been negativeostive about 60:40 of the time.

    And the negatives aren't even little pedantic things,

    I mean

    MRSA X2
    Not spotting cancer
    Neglect X2
    Surgery when didn't need it - Breast Taken off
    Diagnosed with cancer, treated - bald, didn't even have cancer.
    My apendix was 2 hours from bursting because 4 doctors couldn't spot it over a month, despite the agony.
    Took them 8 years to diagnose me with chronic hip retraction
    Market Price for drugs vs NHS prices

    Yeah
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    My expirience (and my families and friends) with the NHS has been negativeostive about 60:40 of the time.

    And the negatives aren't even little pedantic things,

    I mean

    MRSA X2
    Not spotting cancer
    Neglect X2
    Surgery when didn't need it - Breast Taken off
    Diagnosed with cancer, treated - bald, didn't even have cancer.
    My apendix was 2 hours from bursting because 4 doctors couldn't spot it over a month, despite the agony.
    Took them 8 years to diagnose me with chronic hip retraction
    Market Price for drugs vs NHS prices

    Yeah
    And yet you get similar things that happen with private healthcare companies.
    Of course, you have the age old issue that personal experiences are just anecdotal.
    You clearly have had bad experiences, whereas I have pretty much only had good experiences (the only real bad experience was because a receptionist was moody - not really the NHS's fault).
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    And yet you get similar things that happen with private healthcare companies.
    Such errors hardly occur in Switzerland.
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    (Original post by Herr)
    Such errors hardly occur in Switzerland.
    Of course, switzerland is a much much smaller country, and has many fewer people living in it. As such, of course the actual number of such issues is going to be hugely less.
    Also being such as smaller country, you don't have a lot of the issues we do (for one it is a lot more difficult to ensure the quality of hospitals when you have more of them).

    The suggestion that private medicine somehow solves the problem of malpractice is laughable (or it would be laughable if medical malpractice wasn't such a serious issue).
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    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    No people have to alter their life style so their bank accounts don't suffer.

    Someone one 12k per year could see as much as £1440 put back in their pockets by removing the NHS.
    And then robbed blind for a few thousand pounds in health insurance which won't cover a great deal - without googling it, do you even know how much private health insurance costs?
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    And yet you get similar things that happen with private healthcare companies.
    Of course, you have the age old issue that personal experiences are just anecdotal.
    You clearly have had bad experiences, whereas I have pretty much only had good experiences (the only real bad experience was because a receptionist was moody - not really the NHS's fault).
    I realise I've worded it to look like I've had MRSA, neglect and my breast taken off hahaha, anything with my or me not in it is not me!!!!
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    I doubt the NHS as a whole could be privatized, it's become too political as it is.

    The disaster to it is in reality it isn't a sustainable system and there are plenty of academic papers on it that states it would be a bankrupt system in as little as 10 years. But it isn't being bankrupted due to the way it works but it will eventually be bankrupted by unaffordable PFI schemes Liarbore subjected the system to. It can be a cheap and fairly affordable system but it needs to be reformed and better managed. Perhaps one of the thing that needs to go is the free at point of use system... I think this should be the first to be abolished and instead come up with a deductible or excess payment scheme similar to that of Sweden.

    Implementing a Hong Kong or Singapore system won't be a possibility in UK as there are too many rural areas with lower utilization of services rates and in reality it isn't workable in vast majority of countries as these 2 places are City states with a highly urbanized population.

    The system of Switzerland? That isn't possible either because UK has wide income disparities and a regulated health insurance scheme would almost be unworkable especially if there isn't a lowering of taxes. The Swiss system is a "rich country" only system which can only work in a country where people are willing to fork out money to buy "top ups" to the basic insurance plans.... this is BIG business here in Switzerland you could even get plans which allows you to whiten your teeth once per year for free and over 70% of all Swiss people have a top-up of somekind to their health insurance if not for themselves they would buy it for their children... since only the basic part of the health insurance is regulated and made somewhat affordable by regulation the insurance companies have a free for all top-up industry, great system but most likely to be unworkable in UK.

    The other thing to consider, while 80% of all hospitals are completely private with the remainder being either university teaching hospitals or canton/local authority owned and managed places (these are "budget" ones though in reality it is run like any other private hospital and still better than vast majority of UK NHS hospitals) vast majority of treatments aren't priced at a "free market" scheme as the Federal government regulates the cost of the vast majority of treatments and hospitals will need to find ways and means to reduce cost or efficiency to make it workable. Here is where it makes a difference whether you have a top-up or not.... if you have a top-up you could stay at hospital longer and have better monitoring etc in a ward that would make you think you're in a 5* hotel rather than a hospital. Where you don't they do what they "need" to do (standards are highly regulated in regard to this) and then they chase you home, you come back later for a checkup.... good or bad? Well it does appear that if you can afford to pay more you can get better healthcare.............but at the same time if you can't pay you also get a good one. Somehow I doubt this idea could ever fly in UK as it would perpetuate another class war.

    Hence even though I'm all for privatization and free markets, with regard to UK and healthcare the NHS is still required though it would need to be better managed and most likely more efficiently funded.
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    (Original post by Herr)
    Perhaps one of the thing that needs to go is the free at point of use system... I think this should be the first to be abolished and instead come up with a deductible or excess payment scheme similar to that of Sweden.
    Right. And what about those who can't pay?
    Or who would have to put off going to hospital because of money reasons (there was a documentary I watched last year about America, and one guy had put off surgery that he really needed to have, because if he had it then his family would have to go without food).
    One of the most important thing about the NHS is that it is free at the point of use.

    (Original post by Herr)
    The Swiss system is a "rich country" only system which can only work in a country where people are willing to fork out money to buy "top ups" to the basic insurance plans.
    Just a quick note. It isn't just about being willing. It is also about being able to afford it. As you allude to, Switzerland has a high number of people earning a lot of money. So they can afford such things.

    (Original post by prog2djent)
    I realise I've worded it to look like I've had MRSA, neglect and my breast taken off hahaha, anything with my or me not in it is not me!!!!
    Fair enough.
    But the point still stands.
    Some people have good experiences, some bad.
    So you can't really use the fact that some people have had bad experiences to suggest the NHS is awful.
    Plus, generally, you only hear about the bad ones and not about the good ones, and so that would skew your opinion.
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    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    Sarcasm? Because I am really not expecting anyone to.
    No, I do. I've always had libertarian views and have never thought it was fair that well-to-do people had to pay masses of tax for the 'poor'- which is really just another word for dull-minded and lazy.
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    (Original post by GeneralOJB)
    No, I do. I've always had libertarian views and have never thought it was fair that well-to-do people had to pay masses of tax for the 'poor'- which is really just another word for dull-minded and lazy.
    This is the wrong way around.

    The poor pay for the healthcare of the rich in the NHS. The NHS is probably on balance a regressive system. Why?

    Who uses the NHS the most? - Old People.
    Who owns most of the nations wealth, stocks, shares, pensions, lands? - Old People.
    Who pays for the NHS? - Younger poorer people paying off huge mortgages and bearing the costs of children etc.
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    As fast as everyone is to criticise private health care (especially in America) by arguing that poor people would be disadvantaged, there are certain schemes available in America such as Medicare and Medicaid which guarantee old people, children, disabled people and as far as I know, economically disadantaged families to healthcare or health insurance.

    Secondly, from an economic point of view, if we switched to a system where all the healthcare providers are private (and do not receive funding from the government) then there would be much more competition among them, which would drive prices down and quality of healthcare up in order to meet public demand. At the moment in the country the NHS has hardly any competition. The private healthcare companies in the UK don't really affect the NHS that much (I don't think?) and secondly, by paying taxes to the government, these private healthcare companies are helping to fund the NHS, their main competitor. Economically fair?

    I'm not saying I support privatising the NHS. Tbh I quite the like all the free healthcare I get on the NHS. I just really wish the waiting lists weren't so long, the quality of care better etc etc
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    (Original post by Lintu93)
    As fast as everyone is to criticise private health care (especially in America) by arguing that poor people would be disadvantaged, there are certain schemes available in America such as Medicare and Medicaid which guarantee old people, children, disabled people and as far as I know, economically disadantaged families to healthcare or health insurance.

    Secondly, from an economic point of view, if we switched to a system where all the healthcare providers are private (and do not receive funding from the government) then there would be much more competition among them, which would drive prices down and quality of healthcare up in order to meet public demand. At the moment in the country the NHS has hardly any competition. The private healthcare companies in the UK don't really affect the NHS that much (I don't think?) and secondly, by paying taxes to the government, these private healthcare companies are helping to fund the NHS, their main competitor. Economically fair?

    I'm not saying I support privatising the NHS. Tbh I quite the like all the free healthcare I get on the NHS. I just really wish the waiting lists weren't so long, the quality of care better etc etc
    Firstly - despite these schemes there was still 55 million people with inadequate access to healthcare. Talk to your average, easy-going American and they will all say the system is a complete shambles.

    Does the private sector affect the NHS much? Knowing a number of people working in the health sector, if you have anything serious, you'll find yourself with an NHS doctor in an NHS hospital - you've just jumped the queue a little bit.

    Private healthcare competition drives down costs and drives up quality? I fear this is a somewhat naive belief in the superiority of the free market. Costs would almost certainly go up. Hospitals would be completely independent from insurance providers, leading them to just hike their charges up to crazy levels. Just look at no win, no fee lawyers and how they've driven up costs for everybody in terms of insurance and how costs in the motor industry have soared, 'because its just an insruance firm paying out'

    Everybody moans about the quality of care. Why is it that every account I read from the seriously ill, who have been overseas to get treatment, always wind back up at the NHS and say that its the best damn system in the world? The frailty of the NHS is a political myth and 18 week waiting lists do exist as an actual limit. Good enough? Not really. An improvement even on when I was little? You bet!
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    (Original post by Lintu93)
    As fast as everyone is to criticise private health care (especially in America) by arguing that poor people would be disadvantaged, there are certain schemes available in America such as Medicare and Medicaid which guarantee old people, children, disabled people and as far as I know, economically disadantaged families to healthcare or health insurance.

    Secondly, from an economic point of view, if we switched to a system where all the healthcare providers are private (and do not receive funding from the government) then there would be much more competition among them, which would drive prices down and quality of healthcare up in order to meet public demand. At the moment in the country the NHS has hardly any competition. The private healthcare companies in the UK don't really affect the NHS that much (I don't think?) and secondly, by paying taxes to the government, these private healthcare companies are helping to fund the NHS, their main competitor. Economically fair?

    I'm not saying I support privatising the NHS. Tbh I quite the like all the free healthcare I get on the NHS. I just really wish the waiting lists weren't so long, the quality of care better etc etc
    Those are government backed schemes. I health service truly free of the state wouldn't have that in place.

    In a one tier private healthcare system, charities would take up the short fall for the less privileged.
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    (Original post by wozza1991)
    Firstly - despite these schemes there was still 55 million people with inadequate access to healthcare. Talk to your average, easy-going American and they will all say the system is a complete shambles.

    Does the private sector affect the NHS much? Knowing a number of people working in the health sector, if you have anything serious, you'll find yourself with an NHS doctor in an NHS hospital - you've just jumped the queue a little bit.

    Private healthcare competition drives down costs and drives up quality? I fear this is a somewhat naive belief in the superiority of the free market. Costs would almost certainly go up. Hospitals would be completely independent from insurance providers, leading them to just hike their charges up to crazy levels. Just look at no win, no fee lawyers and how they've driven up costs for everybody in terms of insurance and how costs in the motor industry have soared, 'because its just an insruance firm paying out'

    Everybody moans about the quality of care. Why is it that every account I read from the seriously ill, who have been overseas to get treatment, always wind back up at the NHS and say that its the best damn system in the world? The frailty of the NHS is a political myth and 18 week waiting lists do exist as an actual limit. Good enough? Not really. An improvement even on when I was little? You bet!
    The average american wants the Federal Government to get out of the healthcare.....
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    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    The average american wants the Federal Government to get out of the healthcare.....
    I can only base what I say on every American I have spoken to.

    May I ask where this comes from? Perhaps the media, dominated by those who have comfortable healthcare as it is and have absolutely no interest in seeing their taxes spent on the health of the nation?

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