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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Listen, not everyone has to agree with black people.

    These days it seems you have to agree or you are made out to be in the wrong.

    Like I said I would never intentionally cause offence to a black person but I still don't agree 100% with it.

    I understand that many people are black, however I still don't have to agree with it.

    I am entitiled to an opinion.
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    (Original post by River85)
    Same with religion, many would argue. Though I feel I've discussed this with you before...
    Then it's indoctrination. There's a choice in leaving religion if you've been brought up with one but I'm happy to acknowledge strict parentage will hamper this choice. Nobody should be introduced to a religion where they lack the capacity to understand the rules of said religion. This would mean males who are circumcised in the name of religion (and all non-medical mutilations of their body). After all, people cannot have tattoos until they are 18 but consent is not an issue for glorified GBH. And many people rage when Jehova Witnesses of young ages refuse blood transfusing for dying for their beliefs.
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Listen, not everyone has to agree with homosexuality.

    These days it seems you have to agree or you are made out to be in the wrong.

    Like I said I would never intentionally cause offence to a homosexual but I still don't agree 100% with it.

    I understand that many people are gay, however I still don't have to agree with it.

    I am entitiled to an opinion.
    You sure are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion makes you a homophobe.
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    I am entitiled to an opinion.
    You are and I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

    What I am asking you to do is explain what makes you think confuses children about seeing homosexuality? Life is about having opinions but also challenging your own opinions. If you don't have any real basis for this opinion then perhaps you should try and get appropriate life experience and read appropriate academic literature as well as personal stories.

    As you are not able to articulate yourself many assume your opinion is coming from ignorance and homophobia. If you were able to articuate yourself better perhaps people would respect your opinon?

    If what you experience in life only confirms you previous belief then fair enough. But there is nothing worse than having a feeling or opinion that is without foundation, in my opinion.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    You sure are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion makes you a homophobe.
    Fair enough.....
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    I understand your point but it seems nowdays that if you are not pro-gay then you are either branded a bigot, religious fanatic or skinhead type personality.

    I'm non of the above, I'm not a hater of gays. I just believe in traditional family values with a mam and dad and thats what I have been brought up to be like.

    I don't like seeing homosexuality on the TV when my 10 year old boy is watching. Am I wrong to think that?
    And what would be your response if your son told you at any point that he's gay or bisexual? How would you feeling knowing that you'd made him feel that who he is is wrong? If a child is going to be attracted to members of the same sex then they will be, whether or not they know about different sexualities. They are just more likely to feel that they are 'wrong' and 'bad' and 'broken' for years of your lives. This leads to higher levels of mental health problems and suicide in young LGBTQ people.

    And the homosexuality that you are viewing, would you object to the same level of intimacy and physical contact between a man and a woman? If not, you're just an ignorant bigot. We deserve to have who we are represented fairly and truthfully on television. We pay our TV license fees too and so the BBC are duty-bound to include LQBTQ people in their programming.

    Oh, and guess what helps drastically to overcome homophobia to give people the chance to live as who they are without prejudice and fear of harm: understanding and acceptance. Children are born without hate for anyone, it is society and their parents who teach them how to hate and who they 'should' hate. So I hope that whenever you hear or see homophobia you remember that it is people like YOU who caused the hate and that are responsible for the crime.

    Love should always come before hate.
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    why can't people see that homosexuality is no different from heterosexuality. Love is love, why is it offensive to people who someone else loves/is attracted to? It doesn't hurt anyone to be gay!
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    I think people on here need to stop presenting their own views as moral law when in fact they are nothing more than opinions. There is nothing inconsistent about binaryman's position. Just because he does not want his children to be confronted with homosexuality at a young age does not make him a reprehensible bigot. Though I'm not saying I would try to shield my children from homosexuality, most parents try to instill their own social/moral framework in their children and doing so does not make them a bad parent. Sitting an 8 year old down and presenting him with all possible religions, lifestyles etc. and saying "now you pick" is laughable. Who are children to turn to for guidance if not their parents?

    As someone whose parents had several gay friends and who was never particularly perplexed by any of it as a child I don't think his fears of confusing his children are particularly warranted, but I don't see why he has an obligation to educate his children on the subject if they have not already come across it outside of the home (in which case I'm assuming they would have asked about it).
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    (Original post by River85)
    You are and I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

    What I am asking you to do is explain what makes you think confuses children about seeing homosexuality? Life is about having opinions but also challenging your own opinions. If you don't have any real basis for this opinion then perhaps you should try and get appropriate life experience and read appropriate academic literature as well as personal stories.

    As you are not able to articulate yourself many assume your opinion is coming from ignorance and homophobia. If you were able to articuate yourself better perhaps people would respect your opinon?

    If what you experience in life only confirms you previous belief then fair enough. But there is nothing worse than having a feeling or opinion that is without foundation, in my opinion.
    Ok I will try explain.

    It goes against the laws of mother nature and that is why it is confusing to children.
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Listen, not everyone has to agree with homosexuality.

    These days it seems you have to agree or you are made out to be in the wrong.

    Like I said I would never intentionally cause offence to a homosexual but I still don't agree 100% with it.

    I understand that many people are gay, however I still don't have to agree with it.

    I am entitiled to an opinion.
    "Listen, not everyone has to agree with inter-racial relationships.

    These days it seems you have to agree or you are made out to be in the wrong.

    Like I said I would never intentionally cause offence to a interracial couple but I still don't agree 100% with it.

    I understand that many people are attracted to other races, however I still don't have to agree with it.

    I am entitled to an opinion."

    Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. Nobody is forcing you to change your mind. However, we are entitled to call you a bigot for holding your opinion
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Kids play computer games, let kids grow up without confusing them even more by sticking homosexuals on their games.
    But exposing your kids to mass murder and attempted genocide is ok?
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Ok I will try explain.

    It goes against the laws of mother nature and that is why it is confusing to children.
    Don't computers, cars, aeroplanes, etc. also go against mother nature?

    And if it's not natural, how do you explain gay animals?
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Ok I will try explain.

    It goes against the laws of mother nature and that is why it is confusing to children.
    But..

    Wat..

    Thats a complete non sequitur.

    Your argument goes

    ->'It is not natural' (Arguable)
    ->'Therefore it confuses children'

    The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise good sir, your argument is totally unsound. :holmes:

    As for the 'its not natural' argument.

    May I remind you of the following
    -Animals have exhibited homosexual behaviour in the wild
    -If you define human beings as 'natural', then by definition anything we do must also be 'natural'. It is innately characteristic of us.
    -You are typing into a box with artifically constructed flashy lights that communicate an abstract world with which other flashy light boxes can communicate with. People use 'unnatural' lenses to aid them with eyesight and hearing, we use 'unnatural' medical methods to prevent death etc.
    -You are implying 'natural' is even a good thing, does it not strike you as odd that if you try to define anything as inherently 'good' just because it is 'natural' you fall into an idealised pastoral utopia? Its such a common flaw. If you like the 'natural' so much, please, leave society and go live naked in a bush somewhere.
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Ok I will try explain.

    It goes against the laws of mother nature and that is why it is confusing to children.
    There are many things your children witness that are against "mother nature". I'm not sure if it confuses them. Some are actually seen as quite normal and socially acceptable now (as homosexuality largely is, in the UK at least).

    Homosexuality has been witnessed in nature, and has existed since the dawn of time.

    You're making an assumption that children are confused by this. I'm asking what makes you think children are confused.

    (Original post by BigFudamental)
    I think people on here need to stop presenting their own views as moral law when in fact they are nothing more than opinions. There is nothing inconsistent or particularly offensive about binaryman's position. Just because he does not want his children to be confronted with homosexuality at a young age does not make him a reprehensible bigot. Though I'm not saying I would try to shield my children from homosexuality, most parents try to instill their own social/moral framework in their children and doing so does not make them a bad parent. Sitting an 8 year old down and presenting him with all possible religions, lifestyles etc. and saying "now you pick" is laughable. Who are children to turn to for guidance if not their parents?

    As someone whose parents had several gay friends and who was never particularly perplexed by any of it as a child I don't think his fears of confusing his children are particularly warranted, but I don't see why he has an obligation to educate his children on the subject if they have not already come across it outside of the home (in which case I'm assuming they would have asked about it).
    That's what I object to, rather than his opinion itself.

    I'm 27 and I wouldn't feel comfortable watching a gay kiss on TV with my father in the same room (and certainly wouldn't when 10), and I'm certainly not a homophobe.

    They are his kids and if he feels the need to "protect their innocence" then that's fair enough. I don't feel they'll be corrupted by knowing about homosexuality, but there's no point in forcing it on them. I just hope that if they do ask him about it he'll explain homosexuality in a non-bigoted way.
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    (Original post by BigFudamental)
    I think people on here need to stop presenting their own views as moral law when in fact they are nothing more than opinions. There is nothing inconsistent or particularly offensive about binaryman's position. Just because he does not want his children to be confronted with homosexuality at a young age does not make him a reprehensible bigot. Though I'm not saying I would try to shield my children from homosexuality, most parents try to instill their own social/moral framework in their children and doing so does not make them a bad parent. Sitting an 8 year old down and presenting him with all possible religions, lifestyles etc. and saying "now you pick" is laughable. Who are children to turn to for guidance if not their parents?

    As someone whose parents had several gay friends and who was never particularly perplexed by any of it as a child I don't think his fears of confusing his children are particularly warranted, but I don't see why he has an obligation to educate his children on the subject if they have not already come across it outside of the home (in which case I'm assuming they would have asked about it).
    The issue is, there is no justification for "shielding" his child from homosexuality. It is not illegal, damaging, in fact; the existence of homosexuality is not negative in any way.
    No one is suggesting he sing from the rooftops about homosexuality, or force an explanation of it upon his child, but to actively shield your child from something his/her society considers acceptable and is commonplace, whenever it comes up is, in my view, actually damaging for that child- and far more "confusing" than the mere occurrence of homosexuality. In my opinion, that is the sign of a bad parent because you're raising a child ignorant of its own society. I would feel exactly the same about a parent who refused to acknowledge the existence of other religions to its child.
    Besides, in what way am I suggesting my word is moral law? That's laughable... I constantly use the term "in my view/opinion"... Yes, MY. I am simply responding to the OP's views with my own views. His view is offensive/unreasonable to ME, and that's why I'm responding.
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Why is that? If people want to be gay then thats fine. But don't push it into the populations face constantly, there is no need for it.
    (Original post by binaryman)
    If you are gay then that is your own choice.
    There is no choice. People don't decide they want to be gay. Your kids aren't going to see a homosexual couple on a video game and suddenly become gay! If your son or daughter realised that they like boys or girls, respectively, then I imagine it'd be far more confusing for them if they'd never seen a same-sex couple before.

    When it comes down to agreeing or disagreeing, I don't see how that's possible. And I'm going to make comparisons here; being born gay or straight is the same as being born white or black, only easier to hide. You cannot disagree with the colour of someone's skin so how can you disagree with someone's sexual orientation?
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    It goes against the laws of mother nature and that is why it is confusing to children.
    1. So does medicine. You're dying of cancer and have a chance to get rid of it. You're telling me you're going to concede to nature's "survival of the fittest"? If you contract bowel or stomach cancer I can't see you lasting very long before seeking medical help because it's a painful way to die.
    2. Humans drinking cow's milk goes against mother nature. Milk is for infants and only for intra-species feeding. So pouring cows' or goats' milk on your cereal in the morning or having it in your cup of tea, chocolate or coffee is pretty much against mother nature.
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Ok I will try explain.

    It goes against the laws of mother nature and that is why it is confusing to children.
    Gosh, this is a fun topic!

    1: Homosexuality is actually incredibly common in nature and there have been over 1,500 species recorded as participating in homosexual behaviour.

    2: Everything you are doing nowadays is 'against the laws of mother nature'. You are communicating with people thousands of miles away from you on a decidedly unnatural device made out of melted bits of rock and oil, in a unnatural house, while wearing unnatural clothing. The foods you eat are un-natural. Every time you get on a plane and fly away on holiday you are committing an incredibly unnatural act. Yet we don't see people saying that we should ban clothes, houses, farmed food and planes and telling us we should go back and live in trees because it's the 'natural' thing.

    3: The burden is on you as a parent to educate your children about homosexuality. If they find it confusing then you really need to teach them what it's about. Just say "sometimes two men can love each other just like a man and a woman can". Children are incredibly accepting human beings - it's only when they get older that they start to get all bigoted about stuff. If you teach them now then you're going to save them far more confusion than restricting any mention of homosexuality ever would.
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    (Original post by binaryman)
    Listen, not everyone has to agree with homosexuality.

    These days it seems you have to agree or you are made out to be in the wrong.

    Like I said I would never intentionally cause offence to a homosexual but I still don't agree 100% with it.

    I understand that many people are gay, however I still don't have to agree with it.

    I am entitiled to an opinion.
    I don't really get it when people talk about agreeing or disagreeing with homosexuality, by that I mean the use of the word agree/disagree. Homosexuality isn't an opinion.

    When people say they agree with homosexuality what they tend to mean is that they are accepting, tolerant and supportive of gay people and their lives in our society.

    When people say they disagree, what it usually boils down to is that they dislike homosexuality. Using the word disagree just makes it seem more acceptable.

    People think that if they aren't throwing bricks or taunting a gay person then they can't possibly be harming gay people's lives in any way. Yes people are entitled to have opinions and beliefs. If you're going to share them you have to accept that other people will judge you for those. It never fails to amuse me the extent to which people who express their dislike for homosexuality will defend themselves from being called a bigot/homophobe etc.
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    Another non-issue turned into an issue by the pervasive American Christian groups.

    If America decided to expel all the southern states from the U.S.A then it would probably be one of the most intelligent and tolerant nations in the world as opposed to what it is now.

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