[Okashira]

Because Adam's sin began concerning a tree, so Jesus took that curse away from hanging on a tree. (Of course that being the wood used for the cross came from a tree)


What other ways are worse than crucifixion?

[SaintSoldier]

(Original post by Okashira)
What other ways are worse than crucifixion?

Plenty; look up Sikh history.

[Okashira]

(Original post by SaintSoldier)
Plenty; look up Sikh history.

What kind of methods they used for excecution?

[SaintSoldier]

(Original post by Okashira)
What kind of methods they used for excecution?

The Mughals used the methods against us. A short sample:



Guru Arjan was forced to sit on red hot iron plates, with burning sand being poured onto him, because he refused to change one Pauree (line) of the Guru Granth Sahib.



Bhai Dayala was forced to sit in a cauldron of boiling water for not converting.



Bhai Mati Das was cut in half (from head-to-toe) for not converting.



Bhai Sati Das (his brother) was burned alive for not converting.



Bhai Taru Singh had his hair ripped off his scalp and was left to bleed to death for not converting.

BhaiManiSinghJi.bmp

Bhai Mani Singh was chopped to pieces, starting from the extremeties and working inwards, for not converting.



Subheg Singh and Shahbaz Singh (father and son) were both grinded to death together for not converting.


There was a bounty on every Sikh's head. Sikhs were being hunted like animals and their Kesh (hair) fetched a lot of money.

...And there are literally hundreds of other examples I could choose from.

But the thing that, for me, separates these great people from Jesus is their attitude to death.

What did Jesus say on the cross? "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That doesn't strike me as heroic or great.

Contrast this with the attitude of the Sikhs - not a word of pain was uttered. Not a word. I challenge you to find any historical source which states that these great souls ever cried, screamed, or even just frowned at their situation. They took everything without any complaint, and that is what makes them great.

[Popppppy]

(Original post by Steevee)
That's all well and good, Jesus was pretty chill for most of his life, unlike some other religious figures we could mention. But why'd he have to jump on the 'Hate the gays, hate the promiscious, hate the pro-choice' bandwagon? He was shaping up so well.

I don't think Jesus was about hating anybody.
He taught about not judging others, and loving our enemies.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Popppppy)
I don't think Jesus was about hating anybody.
He taught about not judging others, and loving our enemies.

And yet he also agreed that Homosexuality, polygamy and eating shellfish would damn you to hellfire.

It's like if Hitler had a son, and he came along and said 'Chill guys, basically, my Dad was right and I agree with him and all, but let's all have a few cool ones, we're chill. I love you guys, we're all friends here.' It sounds great, until you remember the first bit of what he said. Which, is essentially what Jesus did.

[Okashira]

(Original post by SaintSoldier)
The Mughals used the methods against us. A short sample:



Guru Arjan was forced to sit on red hot iron plates, with burning sand being poured onto him, because he refused to change one Pauree (line) of the Guru Granth Sahib.



Bhai Dayala was forced to sit in a cauldron of boiling water for not converting.



Bhai Mati Das was cut in half (from head-to-toe) for not converting.



Bhai Sati Das (his brother) was burned alive for not converting.



Bhai Taru Singh had his hair ripped off his scalp and was left to bleed to death for not converting.

BhaiManiSinghJi.bmp

Bhai Mani Singh was chopped to pieces, starting from the extremeties and working inwards, for not converting.



Subheg Singh and Shahbaz Singh (father and son) were both grinded to death together for not converting.


There was a bounty on every Sikh's head. Sikhs were being hunted like animals and their Kesh (hair) fetched a lot of money.

...And there are literally hundreds of other examples I could choose from.

But the thing that, for me, separates these great people from Jesus is their attitude to death.

What did Jesus say on the cross? "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That doesn't strike me as heroic or great.

Contrast this with the attitude of the Sikhs - not a word of pain was uttered. Not a word. I challenge you to find any historical source which states that these great souls ever cried, screamed, or even just frowned at their situation. They took everything without any complaint, and that is what makes them great.

You mentioned Jesus shouting "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me", yet that wasn't some kind of cry for help. It is very clear He was quoting Scripture. For one, He said it in Hebrew. If He was really crying out for help, I doubt He would be debating which language He would say it in. Another piece of evidence that He was quoting Scripture, is that He said to criminal who was crucified with Him that he would be in paradise. This shows Jesus knew full well what was happening, and there would be no reason to truly cry out for help, or ask why God abandoned Him.




Yet getting into the excecution methods you brought up, most of them probably killed the victims pretty quickly. Even though the pain is great (understatement), how long can one last after being cut in two? How long can one last being boiled alive? Their suffering didn't last that long, compared to a method such as crucifixion. (You could survive up to days on the cross. There's a chance you could go to sleep on the cross, only to be awaken again to the cruel reality of where you are)



The number one cause of death on the cross, is from lack of oxygen. It's almost like slowly being choked to death. Yet we know Jesus didn't just die from this, He also died from something like a heart attack or stroke. (Doctors use the evidence of when the soldier pierced His side, and blood and a clear liquid came out) You count in all of that, and if you are to believe that Jesus did take our sins into His own body, that the punishment for everyone's evil doings were punished on His person, Jesus suffered the most painful experience known to man. (Again if you count that part in, but most of you don't beleive, and so I won't hold your disbelief against you. Yet the beatings, and Bible even prophecied that they would pluck hair from Jesus' beard, plus the crucifixion are enough to say His suffering was really up there)

[Popppppy]

(Original post by Steevee)
And yet he also agreed that Homosexuality, polygamy and eating shellfish would damn you to hellfire.

It's like if Hitler had a son, and he came along and said 'Chill guys, basically, my Dad was right and I agree with him and all, but let's all have a few cool ones, we're chill. I love you guys, we're all friends here.' It sounds great, until you remember the first bit of what he said. Which, is essentially what Jesus did.

God sent Jesus as a sacrifice so that we wouldn't need to follow the rules of the old Testament.
He was the ultimate sacrifice. So all that shellfish/pork etc isn't relevant to Christians.

Personally I don't think God hates gay people, even thought it's what I was taught at church.
He made me bisexual (which is not something anyone at my Church knows), he didn't give me a choice not to feel the way I do, so I don't see how he could hate me for it, but that's another story.

I don't really want to get into an argument, I'm pretty private about my beliefs and my relationship with God.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Popppppy)
God sent Jesus as a sacrifice so that we wouldn't need to follow the rules of the old Testament.
He was the ultimate sacrifice. So all that shellfish/pork etc isn't relevant to Christians.

Personally I don't think God hates gay people, even thought it's what I was taught at church.
He made me bisexual (which is not something anyone at my Church knows), he didn't give me a choice not to feel the way I do, so I don't see how he could hate me for it, but that's another story.

I don't really want to get into an argument, I'm pretty private about my beliefs and my relationship with God.

I don't think you understand your own religion

Jesus himself said he had not come to superseed the laws and rules already laid down by past prophets.

Well, religious types would say that infact it's a test put to you by God, to prove your devotion to him, and should you ever act on it it's down the shoot to the hot place with you.

[Architecture-er]

(Original post by Okashira)
Yes, many people have been crucified, yet how many people took on the sins of the whole world? I also doubt they were the bloody heap that Jesus was on the cross. I believe most who died on the cross, the most they receive before being nailed to it, is a flogging. Jesus was flogged, beaten, spat on, and beaten some more. This went on from the night of His arrest, all the way to when He was finally nailed on the cross. He was still mocked while on the cross, and was insulted by both the criminals that were crucified with Him. (Of course one finally realized who Jesus was) I really doubt this much punishment and attention was given to others who was crucified. Even if that were so, they would have been screaming and fighting all the way. Jesus received all of it in spite of being completely innocent, and even forgave those who were still insulting, mocking, and beating Him.



To put it simply, there is no comparison here.

Not to mention that after all that, he then had to have part of his soul torn apart and put in hell temporarily. Which must be even worse than a normal human, given that he was cut off from part of his own psyche.

[SaintSoldier]

(Original post by Okashira)
Yet getting into the excecution methods you brought up, most of them probably killed the victims pretty quickly. Even though the pain is great (understatement), how long can one last after being cut in two? How long can one last being boiled alive? Their suffering didn't last that long, compared to a method such as crucifixion. (You could survive up to days on the cross. There's a chance you could go to sleep on the cross, only to be awaken again to the cruel reality of where you are)

Guru Arjan was tortured for ~two weeks before he died. The same goes for many (the majority actually) of the people I posted. They easily match, if not supercede, Jesus.

And even with the shorter ones (which would have lasted a few hours) - how can you say that they were meaningless because of that? I doubt you could go through anything near that, and tbh neither could I.

Deliberate attempts were made at making it more painful. For example, Bhai Mati Das was actually cut with a slightly blunted blade, so that it last longer. This was because Bhai Mati Das was executed in front of Guru Tegh Bahadur, with the intention of making him feel guilty that the Sikhs were experiencing pain due to him and thus succumbing to conversion out of Sikhism.

How can you go to sleep on the cross??!! If it's that easy, then why are you moaning about what Jesus went through. A punishment that you can sleep through is not a punishment in most people's books.

[Person1001]

(Original post by SaintSoldier)
The Mughals used the methods against us. A short sample:



Guru Arjan was forced to sit on red hot iron plates, with burning sand being poured onto him, because he refused to change one Pauree (line) of the Guru Granth Sahib.



Bhai Dayala was forced to sit in a cauldron of boiling water for not converting.



Bhai Mati Das was cut in half (from head-to-toe) for not converting.



Bhai Sati Das (his brother) was burned alive for not converting.



Bhai Taru Singh had his hair ripped off his scalp and was left to bleed to death for not converting.

BhaiManiSinghJi.bmp

Bhai Mani Singh was chopped to pieces, starting from the extremeties and working inwards, for not converting.



Subheg Singh and Shahbaz Singh (father and son) were both grinded to death together for not converting.


There was a bounty on every Sikh's head. Sikhs were being hunted like animals and their Kesh (hair) fetched a lot of

Thats harsh

[Okashira]

(Original post by SaintSoldier)
Guru Arjan was tortured for ~two weeks before he died. The same goes for many (the majority actually) of the people I posted. They easily match, if not supercede, Jesus.

And even with the shorter ones (which would have lasted a few hours) - how can you say that they were meaningless because of that? I doubt you could go through anything near that, and tbh neither could I.

Deliberate attempts were made at making it more painful. For example, Bhai Mati Das was actually cut with a slightly blunted blade, so that it last longer. This was because Bhai Mati Das was executed in front of Guru Tegh Bahadur, with the intention of making him feel guilty that the Sikhs were experiencing pain due to him and thus succumbing to conversion out of Sikhism.

How can you go to sleep on the cross??!! If it's that easy, then why are you moaning about what Jesus went through. A punishment that you can sleep through is not a punishment in most people's books.

Nowhere did I say their pain was meaningless. Yet comparing the length, it takes a longer time to die on the cross. Now you said their torture lasted for two weeks. I imagine they were isolated for periods of time in between, before they were ultimately excecuted. The worst excecution method, is one where it takes time before you ultimately die.



Edit: I guess sleep is not really the right phrasing. More like passing out from time to time.

[SaintSoldier]

(Original post by Person1001)
Thats harsh

That's Sikh history for you

I know this is somewhat of a cliche, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Don't even get me started on Banda Singh getting his eyes gauged out while reciting Rehraas (evening prayer) etc etc....

[SaintSoldier]

(Original post by Okashira)
Nowhere did I say their pain was meaningless. Yet comparing the length, it takes a longer time to die on the cross. Now you said their torture lasted for two weeks. I imagine they were isolated for periods of time in between, before they were ultimately excecuted. The worst excecution method, is one where it takes time before you ultimately die.

It was continuous. What would be the point in taking breaks when the whole idea is to convert them by force?

[PierceBrosnan]

The Roman's actually crucified Jesus because he was a threat to their authority hence why he was crucified just like rebels were in Judea.

[Okashira]

(Original post by SaintSoldier)
It was continuous. What would be the point in taking breaks when the whole idea is to convert them by force?

Let me get a better picture, in what way was it continuous? Did the people stay with the prisoners for two weeks straight, torturing them? Or was it they tortured them in the morning, then at noon, and finallly at night? (Doing this daily until they either convert or die) Just for my knowledge sake.

[SaintSoldier]

(Original post by Okashira)
Let me get a better picture, in what way was it continuous? Did the people stay with the prisoners for two weeks straight, torturing them? Or was it they tortured them in the morning, then at noon, and finallly at night? (Doing this daily until they either convert or die) Just for my knowledge sake.

I know that they were tortured throughout the daylight hours (from historical texts, some were tortured in public to humiliate them) but I don't know what happened at night tbh

[navarre]

I DO confess to loving the Passion story, especially the best verse in the Bible. The part where Pilate asks Jesus 'what is truth?'

Anyway, my parents always go to church on this day and then we have a lovely dinner. Today it was roast pork, which is delicious. Ironically, Jesus, being Jewish, didn't know what he was missing out on in terms of pork.

Still, a day of pork, chocolate and Skyward Sword is rarely a bad day.

[Miracle Day]

God damn you Judas.