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George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Who's guilty?

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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    Er..k. So if a "community" decides that crack dealers are in fact community heroes, the police should not be able to apprehend them? lol. It's literally parody.
    Oh I'm sorry, were we talking about whether the riots were justified? Cos I thought we were talking about why they happened. And like it or not, that is why.

    Actually if I remember rightly the main issue was the police not contacting Duggan's family after killing him.


    Interesting. So you are a self confirmed racialist in that you believe that the state should treat people differently according to their ethnicity.
    Nope. I just don't care. That's literally it. If Abbott was forced to resign, I also wouldn't care. Actually I'd probably be slightly happy since I happen to find her incredibly annoying. But I simply do not care about what she said on Twitter.


    Who knows? I haven't seen any evidence confirming that Zimmerman is a crazy racist that wanted to kill blacks. Could have been the hoodie. tbh I can think of alot of people wondering around in hoodies on my estate black,white and asian that I would not feel remorse if I shot them whilst under attack.
    Well, there's this
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Oh I'm sorry, were we talking about whether the riots were justified? Cos I thought we were talking about why they happened. And like it or not, that is why.

    Actually if I remember rightly I believe the main thing was the police not contacting Duggan's family after killing him.




    Nope. I just don't care. That's literally it. If Abbott was forced to resign, I also wouldn't care. Actually I'd probably be slightly happy since I happen to find her incredibly annoying. But I simply do not care about what she said on Twitter.




    Well, there's this
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html
    How long did they take to contact Tomlinson's family? Did his family galvanise the local white working class community into rioting? no.

    That's the issue here. You don't care if racism goes the other way. By definition, that is racialist. Just informing you that you are a hypocrite. soz.

    where does that show he's a racist? you are aware that in zimmerman's area the main description for criminals is young black male?
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    [QUOTE=Mollymod;37040392]Funny that you're able to tell me what I care about and what I don't care about. If you had read my previous post, you would note that I said in reply to Bonged's post, that I correct myself in thinking that Zimmerman was white. It's been proven that he isn't and I've accepted that, so that point is already invalid. People (not everyone, obviously) would be interested, and infact deeply saddened by black on black crime because it's becoming such a frequent occurence. The racism-crying has helped to make the case internationally known, but that doesn't mean it's fair for you to say no one would care if we couldn't cry racism because that is simply not true. It simply goes down to the nutshell that a 17 year old guy was killed, and the guy who killed him isn't in police custody. To the last sentence, it may not be classed as 'racism' when society is dealing with it, but the definition of racism encompasses hate crimes like that also. It is therefore not easy to just condense the whole issue down to 'who's guilty' and 'who's not'. There are very intricate details with this story.

    Self defence or no self defence, further questioning should still be done. It's just too early to pack up the materials and end the case just like that. Why are you bringing irrelevant cases into this, lol. At least back up your questions with some reasoning.



    funny the France shooting case went cold when we found out the guy was a Muslim. What did they call the shooter before that ? oh yeah, they said he was a white man with ties to the far right. did they have proof? no, but 5 Jews have been shot, he must be white. They even wrote an article headlined ' Minority communities on stand-by' hmm. Any complaints there? Nope. No noise about that. No 'profiling' going on their eh. notice you couldn;t answer my O.J query, slaughtered a White woman didn't he..? were the black community in arms about that? nope. why? couldn't cry racism.

    what about this story? ' teens set fire to kid for being 'white boy' http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...ire-tv-station

    since this story happened this march, strange how the country hasn't been plastered with coverage of this story. funny since you said racism to whites was something taken seriously. any marches over this incident? nope. have you heard of it? nope. you've heard of Trayvon Martint hough haven't you?

    toodle too.
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    (Original post by MrJon)
    funny the France shooting case went cold when we found out the guy was a Muslim. What did they call the shooter before that ? oh yeah, they said he was a white man with ties to the far right. did they have proof? no, but 5 Jews have been shot, he must be white. They even wrote an article headlined ' Minority communities on stand-by' hmm. Any complaints there? Nope. No noise about that. No 'profiling' going on their eh. notice you couldn;t answer my O.J query, slaughtered a White woman didn't he..? were the black community in arms about that? nope. why? couldn't cry racism.

    what about this story? ' teens set fire to kid for being 'white boy' http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...ire-tv-station

    since this story happened this march, strange how the country hasn't been plastered with coverage of this country. funny since you said racism to whites was something taken seriously. any marches over this incident? nope. have you heard of it? nope. and i think you know why.

    toodle too.
    I had never heard of the accusations of the shooter being a white man with ties to the far right. Seriously what news channel are you watching? In case you didn't hear, there were rumours the guy's brother has been under questioning because they think he assisted the perpetrator in some way. The story has definitely not gone cold now it's been proven that it wasn't a white man. I really know nothing about the OJ Simpson case, hence why I refused to comment on it. I don't talk about things I know nothing about, but you can't just assume the entire black community enjoys to cry racism. There are some black people who prefer to delve deeper into the issues before they assume racism is the cause of the *******. Take Morgan Freeman for example. It's just the ones who are crying racism have the louder voice. I hadn't heard of the case you posted, no, and of course it's sad, but I'm saying it's taken seriously by individuals, and not by society as a whole, which I have said from the beginning, that that is wrong and that I do not condone those sorts of double standards in any way.

    If nobody cared about the tragic story you posted, then why has an article been written? Surely if nobody cared, there would be no attempts to raise awareness about it.
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    (Original post by Mollymod)
    I had never heard of the accusations of the shooter being a white man with ties to the far right. Seriously what news channel are you watching? In case you didn't hear, there were rumours the guy's brother has been under questioning because they think he assisted the perpetrator in some way. The story has definitely not gone cold now it's been proven that it wasn't a white man. I really know nothing about the OJ Simpson case, hence why I refused to comment on it. I don't talk about things I know nothing about, but you can't just assume the entire black community enjoys to cry racism. There are some black people who prefer to delve deeper into the issues before they assume racism is the cause of the *******. Take Morgan Freeman for example. It's just the ones who are crying racism have the louder voice. I hadn't heard of the case you posted, no, and of course it's sad, but I'm saying it's taken seriously by individuals, and not by society as a whole, which I have said from the beginning, that that is wrong and that I do not condone those sorts of double standards in any way.

    If nobody cared about the tragic story you posted, then why has an article been written? Surely if nobody cared, there would be no attempts to raise awareness about it.
    Main storyline in Guardian after the shootings. Writers were chastising Sarkozy for dehumanising muslims, saying that it was a neo-nazi out to get muslims.

    I agree with you and I appreciate your point of view. IMO it is largely white liberals that use double standards. The captain haddock guy earlier for example.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    How long did they take to contact Tomlinson's family? Did his family galvanise the local white working class community into rioting? no.
    I'm pretty sure they knew as soon as he was identified. In fact I think it was his son who identified him. So basically as soon as possible.

    Still ignoring the fact that Mark Duggan was known by many while Ian Tomlinson was barely known by his own son.

    Still ignoring the history of tension between the police and the members Duggan's community, which frankly is a lot more tangible than the vague relationship between 'the police' and 'the working class'.

    That's the issue here. You don't care if racism goes the other way. By definition, that is racialist. Just informing you that you are a hypocrite. soz.
    But I am a white male. I am the 'victim' of Abbott's comment. Don't I get to decide whether or not I'm personally offended by it? I just don't think it was that bad, and frankly, from a historical perspective it had some truth to it.


    where does that show he's a racist? you are aware that in zimmerman's area the main description for criminals is young black male?
    Yes, so Martin was a victim of being a young black male in a place where young black males are seen as suspicious. If he hadn't been, Zimmerman would not have followed him.
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    (Original post by Mollymod)
    I had never heard of the accusations of the shooter being a white man with ties to the far right. Seriously what news channel are you watching? In case you didn't hear, there were rumours the guy's brother has been under questioning because they think he assisted the perpetrator in some way. The story has definitely not gone cold now it's been proven that it wasn't a white man. I really know nothing about the OJ Simpson case, hence why I refused to comment on it. I don't talk about things I know nothing about, but you can't just assume the entire black community enjoys to cry racism. There are some black people who prefer to delve deeper into the issues before they assume racism is the cause of the *******. Take Morgan Freeman for example. It's just the ones who are crying racism have the louder voice. I hadn't heard of the case you posted, no, and of course it's sad, but I'm saying it's taken seriously by individuals, and not by society as a whole, which I have said from the beginning, that that is wrong and that I do not condone those sorts of double standards in any way.

    If nobody cared about the tragic story you posted, then why has an article been written? Surely if nobody cared, there would be no attempts to raise awareness about it.
    1 article? in this a major news source? no. its a minor news soruce. are you outraged? no. because the victim doesn't fit the bill. no real story in that is there? so why isn't this national news? if whites had done it you'd have said ' ahhhh, racismmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, this isn't news because hesssss black ahhhhhhh' same old, same old.

    and really? they didn't accuse the shooter of being white? of course not, it's a lie. more double standards. even though they accused him countless times of being far right. FACT. they paint a pciture of the guy they;re looking for like always. that was the description 'white far right'.

    even after it was a fact that papers wrote articles headlined ' minroites on stand ' yet you fail to acknowledge that. why? makes whites looks like victims deosn't it? dont you just hate it? all people like you do is agree with anything that makes blacks look like vicitms, and disagree with anything which makes whites look they're being victimized. you just done it now. you even said/thought Zimmerman was white. you just profiled right there...

    so i can't assume blacks like to cry about racism...yet you can assume the france case didn't go cold because it was a muslim doin the shooting..hmm i wonder why? yet... you can assume that every black man killed by the cops is because..hes black? change around the colour you get a different answer everytime eh?

    very fair and non-double standard of you. is O.J in jail. Nope, i thought you said earlier a black doing such a thing wouldn't be walking around scot free?

    you haven't claimed that Latinos are now facing special treatment even though Latino Zimmerman is walking free after gunning down innocent blacks have we. hmmm? interesting..
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I'm pretty sure they knew as soon as he was identified. In fact I think it was his son who identified him. So basically as soon as possible.

    Still ignoring the fact that Mark Duggan was known by many while Ian Tomlinson was barely known by his own son.

    Still ignoring the history of tension between the police and the members Duggan's community, which frankly is a lot more tangible than the vague relationship between 'the police' and 'the working class'.



    But I am a white male. I am the 'victim' of Abbott's comment. Don't I get to decide whether or not I'm personally offended by it? I just don't think it was that bad, and frankly, from a historical perspective it had some truth to it.




    Yes, so Martin was a victim of being a young black male in a place where young black males are seen as suspicious. If he hadn't been, Zimmerman would not have followed him.
    Expand on this. What makes it "more tangible".

    Absolutely, but you don't get to decide whether other people are offended. A racist could say "but some black people i know like being called n*****". But you wouldn't take so kindly to that. If we are to live in a society where people are protected from offense based on their ethnicity, everyone has to be protected equally. From a historical perspective it had no truth to it, it was a massive generalisation. My ancestors didn't "divide and rule" anyone, they were themselves ruled by a land owning elite.

    Due to their higher levels of criminality. Catch 22 i suppose.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    Main storyline in Guardian after the shootings. Writers were chastising Sarkozy for dehumanising muslims, saying that it was a neo-nazi out to get muslims.

    I agree with you and I appreciate your point of view. IMO it is largely white liberals that use double standards. The captain haddock guy earlier for example.
    Ah right, it's because I don't read the Guardian that I wasn't able to comment on it, but in that case, it's wrong that that was written when no proof had been given. But then again, the papers do that, which is why I don't believe everything I read. Some of the misleading headlines are hilarious, like some of the ones in The Sun for example, but misleading headlines for serious and controversial issues like this one are terrible. I can't comment on the ethnicity of people who use double standards, but it's important with issues like 'racism', 'sexism', potentially 'religion' too, that things aren't a one way system and that injustice has the potential to go both ways. Thank you, Bonged, for taking a look at the bigger picture and taking the chance to read into what I have actually been trying to say.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    Expand on this. What makes it "more tangible".

    Absolutely, but you don't get to decide whether other people are offended. A racist could say "but some black people i know like being called n*****". But you wouldn't take so kindly to that. If we are to live in a society where people are protected from offense based on their ethnicity, everyone has to be protected equally. From a historical perspective it had no truth to it, it was a massive generalisation. My ancestors didn't "divide and rule" anyone, they were themselves ruled by a land owning elite.

    Due to their higher levels of criminality. Catch 22 i suppose.
    if people are gonna blame whites for slavery, then can thank us inventing things that they use everyday.
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    (Original post by MrJon)
    if people are gonna blame whites for slavery, then can thank us inventing things that they use everyday.
    you need to chill tbh.
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    (Original post by MrJon)
    1 article? in this a major news source? no. its a minor news soruce. are you outraged? no. because the victim doesn't fit the bill. no real story in that is there? so why isn't this national news? if whites had done it you'd have said ' ahhhh, racismmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, this isn't news because hesssss black ahhhhhhh' same old, same old.

    and really? they didn't accuse the shooter of being white? of course not, it's a lie. more double standards. even though they accused him countless times of being far right. FACT. they paint a pciture of the guy they;re looking for like always. that was the description 'white far right'.

    even after it was a fact that papers wrote articles headlined ' minroites on stand ' yet you fail to acknowledge that. why? makes whites looks like victims deosn't it? dont you just hate it? all people like you do is agree with anything that makes blacks look like vicitms, and disagree with anything which makes whites look they're being victimized. you just done it now. you even said/thought Zimmerman was white. you just profiled right there...

    so i can't assume blacks like to cry about racism...yet you can assume the france case didn't go cold because it was a muslim doin the shooting..hmm i wonder why? yet... you can assume that every black man killed by the cops is because..hes black? change around the colour you get a different answer everytime eh?

    very fair and non-double standard of you. is O.J in jail. Nope, i thought you said earlier a black doing such a thing wouldn't be walking around scot free?

    you haven't claimed that Latinos are now facing special treatment even though Latino Zimmerman is walking free after gunning down innocent blacks have we. hmmm? interesting..
    When did I ever scream 'ahhhh racism'. I said in my first post that I wouldn't judge Zimmerman on those grounds lol. You saw that I corrected my statement about Zimmerman being white, it's funny how you always run back to that one mistake I made that I already corrected because you're running out of valid points. The personal attacks on what 'I' would think are amusing also. There is no 'victim fitting the bill' issue here for me. I said I didn't know much about the O.J case, I'll read into it though. I said it was UNLIKELY that the guy would be walking around scot free, I didn't say it was impossible. You might want to rephrase the last paragraph because I really cannot understand what point you're trying to make. This has been an interesting discussion though.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Yes, so Martin was a victim of being a young black male in a place where young black males are seen as suspicious. If he hadn't been, Zimmerman would not have followed him.
    Nonsense. Are you really suggesting that young white people wearing hoodies are never seen as suspicious? Have you never been to a chavvy area before?

    The ******* I have is this. If a man walked into a police station with injuries on the back of his head and face, and said he killed a white teen in self-defence, and the white teen was a known criminal; people wouldn't notice. The only reason people notice this case is because Travyon is black. Really, Trayvon's ethnicity has nothing to do with any of this.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    you need to chill tbh.
    chill? you put up with a double standard for so long you can no longer 'chill'.
    you supress peoples voices so much you can no longer just ' chill'.

    ppl fck around with sensitive topics your gonna get an insensitive answer.
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    (Original post by MrJon)
    chill? you put up with a double standard for so long you can no longer 'chill'.
    you supress peoples voices so much you can no longer just ' chill'.

    ppl fck around with sensitive topics your gonna get an insensitive answer.
    Fair enough, I don't like the double standard either, but raving about it detracts from the strength of any point you have to make.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    That's easy. Nobody knew who Ian Tomlinson was and his cause of death was not made explicit for a long time after he was killed. Mark Duggan from what I understand was a well liked figure within the community and him being shot in murky circumstances was really just the straw that broke the camels back for the community's relationship with the police, which has always been very strained. Obviously when the riots spread to other areas it stopped being about Duggan.
    He was only well liked because he sold crack cheap to his fellow gangsters. Also, lets say a random guy walks into your gated community, which he has no right to be in. You tell him to go away he runs off, then seconds later he aggresively approcahes you, for all zimmerman new, he could have had a gun. Martin punched zimmerman, so zimmerman shot him in self defense. The media don't help either, showing the cute pictures of martin, if they showed the thug pictures of him it would be a different story. The media are so one sided and just call it racism and all that bull. If he was white he would have been shot.
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    (Original post by Mollymod)
    When did I ever scream 'ahhhh racism'. I said in my first post that I wouldn't judge Zimmerman on those grounds lol. You saw that I corrected my statement about Zimmerman being white, it's funny how you always run back to that one mistake I made that I already corrected because you're running out of valid points. The personal attacks on what 'I' would think are amusing also. There is no 'victim fitting the bill' issue here for me. I said I didn't know much about the O.J case, I'll read into it though. I said it was UNLIKELY that the guy would be walking around scot free, I didn't say it was impossible. You might want to rephrase the last paragraph because I really cannot understand what point you're trying to make. This has been an interesting discussion though.
    i have a ******* with you denying the fact that this march has only taken place because Trayvon was Black. If he was White, nobody would have marched. when have you heard anybody marching for a white man/woman killed? never, atleast not in a racial sense. the main focus in this case is that Trayvon is Black, and nobody is allowed to challenge them without being suspected of being against them. PC'ness. Can a white person manipulate PC'ness in their favour? nope.

    as i said, why don't black people march for black on black crime? because they can't cry racism. the perpitraitors not a white/latino/other, therefore, it's not so much of an issue to get them excited cause they'll have to march agaisnt a black murderer. theres no interest in that for them.

    eif im not right, then why aren't more african-americans protesting daily over black on black murder? only when the perepetraitor is White/Hispanic/Other.

    This March, 10 people killed and 39 injured in ONE WEEK shooting, Chicago

    the dead? all black. including a 6 year old child.

    no outrage. no marching. why?

    couldn't cry racism.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...g-those-killed
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    You can't tell, but I do think it's remotely possible that people are maybe afraid of being branded as racist if they were to go marching for the death of a white boy, but I have absolutely no idea. You really do enjoy bringing it back to the race card though, it seems. You're very vitriolic in your responses with these things. You answer your own questions, incorrectly as well and won't read or reason with others, making it hard to have intelligent discussion with you. There are actually campaigns against the black on black crime and schemes trying to combat the ******* if you had done your research. There is a ******* with black on black crime which is recognised by not only other races, but by black people themselves. How can you say this issue is one they get 'excited' about? There's a really sick and twisted tone to some of the things you say, you make it sound like it's just something people are jumping on the bandwagon about, and to some extent, it's true, but you're going very far to say that people aren't interested if it's a white person which is simply not the case. Maybe the number of protesting black people against black on black crime is minute, but it does not mean these people do not exist. You are only picking what you want to notice and blank out the other parts to the story. There is outrage, and obviously people aren't happy about it, but you simply block out what you don't want to believe or anything that isn't aligned with what you think.

    I'm a black person myself, and I know people, including myself who are saddened by black on black crime. I do talk about it openly to help raise awareness in my community and the thing I have found is that people in general are affected by it, and not just the black community, I have friends from a wide variety of backgrounds, and they all notice that this sort of criminality is a big issue. We do care, and not just in cases where we can't shout 'racism'.
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    (Original post by MrJon)
    neither is allowing people to riot but we still allow it dont we?
    not really considering people for rioting has been charged....which zimmerman hasn't
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    (Original post by MrJon)
    the police records show Zimmerman had suffered a broken nose with bleeding from the back of his head.

    2 Witnesses concured they saw Martin on-top punching Zimmerman in the face.

    Assault is a crime.

    Stop listening to Al Sharpton & Jesse.
    Zimmerman had been following Martin, even when told by the police to stop....as for the assault nobody can confirm whether Zimmerman attacked martin first or vice versa, but considering he had been following him around for some while.....there should at least be a proper investigation rather than assuming Zimmerman was in the right because Martin was black,and has been in trouble for petty offenses. shooting someone shouldn't be something taken lightly :/

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