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M71 - Extradite Abu Qatada Motion

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    (Original post by TopHat)
    If you are looking into it, why put forward this motion now, when the situation could change? That just seems rushed and unnecessary. If you withdraw this motion now, and the Foreign Secretary reaches an acceptable compromise with the MUN, Labour would gladly support the resultant motion, but the current version is a step too far.
    Any changes would build on the premise of this motion in its current form - Abu Qatada should face the Jordanian legal system, for the good of the UK and Jordan.

    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    This bill is already a complete shambles and a disaster.
    *Motion. It would be good if we could try to be a little less partisan. (Also I just accidentally pos repped you!)
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    He should face the Jordanian legal system, but currently all your motion will do is expose him to the Jordanian extralegal system, as highlighted by parties as diverse as the Socialists to the Libertarians and more or less everything in between bar the Government itself. If you can provide the guarantee that an independent body will attest that he is treated within the parameters of Jordanian law, and no more, I think we would all be comfortable in voting Aye. But you have failed that completely.
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    Remove this fifth columnist immediately.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    *Motion. It would be good if we could try to be a little less partisan. (Also I just accidentally pos repped you!)
    I'm not being partisan - I'm defending civil liberties for all, not just for white Christians like the right wing want to. Radical Islamists, on the condition that they are peaceful, should have the right to spout as much **** as everybody else.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    'It's an issue of sovereignty'.

    No, it's an issue of an innocent man being sent away to be tortured by a supposedly civilised nation.

    Play your stupid Europhobic games somewhere else, not with a mans life. The government has the power to take as much power away from Europe as it likes, it doesn't need to make petty, immature little statements like this.

    I'll be PM'ing all Labour, Socialist and Liberal Democrat MPs and asking them to vote it down, and I would expect Libertarians to put their money where their mouth is and vote it down, too.
    That's rank hyperbole. Of course it's an issue of sovereignty - he lives in the UK, and the highest court in the UK has approved his extradition!

    This isn't about Europhobia. I don't deny that ignoring Europe and deporting him would be like sticking two fingers up to them, but that's a side effect of what would be a perfectly legitimate deportation, not the cause of the deportation. If we were only deporting him in order to flex our muscles, then I would agree that he would be a victim of 'Europhobic games'. But we're not. If there was no ECHR, we would have deported him, so it's not about 'Europhobic games': it's about deporting someone whose deportation has been approved by the highest court in the land of the country he resides in.
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    (Original post by TopHat)
    He should face the Jordanian legal system, but currently all your motion will do is expose him to the Jordanian extralegal system, as highlighted by parties as diverse as the Socialists to the Libertarians and more or less everything in between bar the Government itself. If you can provide the guarantee that an independent body will attest that he is treated within the parameters of Jordanian law, and no more, I think we would all be comfortable in voting Aye. But you have failed that completely.
    How can he face the Jordanian legal system without this motion being passed? I don't expect a reply to this, as you haven't replied to my other quotes of your posts in this topic.
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    (Original post by tufc)
    That's rank hyperbole. Of course it's an issue of sovereignty - he lives in the UK, and the highest court in the UK has approved his extradition!

    This isn't about Europhobia. I don't deny that ignoring Europe and deporting him would be like sticking two fingers up to them, but that's a side effect of what would be a perfectly legitimate deportation, not the cause of the deportation. If we were only deporting him in order to flex our muscles, then I would agree that he would be a victim of 'Europhobic games'. But we're not. If there was no ECHR, we would have deported him, so it's not about 'Europhobic games': it's about deporting someone whose deportation has been approved by the highest court in the land of the country he resides in.
    The highest court in the UK legal system has said he shouldn't be extradited, actually.

    And of course it's about Europhobia. Everybody here can see that the right cares more about bashing Europe (our biggest trade partners, by the way), than actually protecting human rights.

    If human rights are ignored for Abu Qatada, they can be ignored for you or me.
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    (Original post by tufc)
    How can he face the Jordanian legal system without this motion being passed? I don't expect a reply to this, as you haven't replied to my other quotes of your posts in this topic.
    I've been replying to everyone generally, rather than specifically - it's rather tiresome to have to quote about five people and make separate replies when they're all making the same argument.

    If you read my earlier post addressed to JPKC about communications with the MUN, we have provided a solution we feel would be adequate for everyone involved, from Socialists to Libertarians.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    I'm not being partisan - I'm defending civil liberties for all, not just for white Christians like the right wing want to. Radical Islamists, on the condition that they are peaceful, should have the right to spout as much **** as everybody else.
    Are you calling Qatada peaceful? TSR Labour's not being very coherent on this issue, I get the impression that some of you agree with me and RL Labour, some agree with TopHat and his view that the prospect of extra-judicial punishment is the main deterent to voting in favour, and then you implying that Qatada should not be extradited full-stop.

    :confused:
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    The highest court in the UK legal system has said he shouldn't be extradited, actually.

    And of course it's about Europhobia. Everybody here can see that the right cares more about bashing Europe (our biggest trade partners, by the way), than actually protecting human rights.

    If human rights are ignored for Abu Qatada, they can be ignored for you or me.
    No-one supporting this motion can deny that they would enjoy the metaphoric sticking up of the two fingers to Europe. But that's not the motivation in this: the fact is that the highest legal authority that is actually in the UK has approved his extradition, and a foreign court should not be able to change that.

    I don't understand people who have such support for us being subject to the ECHR - did we have human rights problems in this country before we were subject to it? No, we had the best record of protecting civil and human rights in the world.

    I think all these Eurocrats holding court in France should remember that it was their own Vichy government that collaborated and was thus complicit in the most horrific human rights abuse of all time, and that without British intervention, there would be no such thing as human rights on the Continent.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    Are you calling Qatada peaceful? TSR Labour's not being very coherent on this issue, I get the impression that some of you agree with me and RL Labour, some agree with TopHat and his view that the prospect of extra-judicial punishment is the main deterent to voting in favour, and then you implying that Qatada should not be extradited full-stop.

    :confused:
    Oh, is he not peaceful? If you think he's inciting hatred, violence or even going as far as to commit it, you should go and talk to the police - you see, then he can be tried under British courts (without being tortured, as much as the right wing like you want it).
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    (Original post by tufc)
    No-one supporting this motion can deny that they would enjoy the metaphoric sticking up of the two fingers to Europe. But that's not the motivation in this: the fact is that the highest legal authority that is actually in the UK has approved his extradition, and a foreign court should not be able to change that.

    I don't understand people who have such support for us being subject to the ECHR - did we have human rights problems in this country before we were subject to it? No, we had the best record of protecting civil and human rights in the world.

    I think all these Eurocrats holding court in France should remember that it was their own Vichy government that collaborated and was thus complicit in the most horrific human rights abuse of all time, and that without British intervention, there would be no such thing as human rights on the Continent.
    Lol. So this issue has nothing to do with Europe - but you say you'd 'enjoy sticking two fingers up at Europe' then go on to whine hysterically about Eurocrats as usual.

    It's always about Europe for you nutters. Just let it go.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    Oh, is he not peaceful? If you think he's inciting hatred, violence or even going as far as to commit it, you should go and talk to the police - you see, then he can be tried under British courts (without being tortured, as much as the right wing like you want it).
    As you can see JPKC, we're perfectly consistent. If we could be certain he would not face torture and would receive a fair trial, we would not object. We very much doubt he will see either of those things, however.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    Lol. So this issue has nothing to do with Europe - but you say you'd 'enjoy sticking two fingers up at Europe' then go on to whine hysterically about Eurocrats as usual.

    It's always about Europe for you nutters. Just let it go.
    Of course the issue itself is about European intervention in British matters. But the fact is, our desire to have him extradited isn't due to us wanting to flex our muscles over Europe - that's an independent side-effect that I think a lot of us would like. What it's about is a man whose extradition has been approved by the highest UK legal authority receiving the treatment that the British justice system has said he should receive.
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    (Original post by tufc)
    Of course the issue itself is about European intervention in British matters. But the fact is, our desire to have him extradited isn't due to us wanting to flex our muscles over Europe - that's an independent side-effect that I think a lot of us would like. What it's about is a man whose extradition has been approved by the highest UK legal authority receiving the treatment that the British justice system has said he should receive.
    No, the issue is not about European intervention. It's about one man, and whether or not we should risk him being tortured.

    And if the Conservative party and UKIP don't like European intervention in British matters, why don't they pull us out of the ECHR? I'd make sure the whole electorate knew that our human rights had been repealed, don't worry.
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    This has such a simple solution, I can't believe the Government are still awkwardly limping on. Withdraw this motion, go the MUN, find a suitable compromise with Jordan that allows us to safeguard Qatada from torture, come back, write a new motion, everyone Ayes it with massive cross party consensus, job done. Instead, we're watching the dead horse trying to cross the Somme.
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    The UK incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into British Law through the Human Rights Act 1998. A person may take their case to the European Court on Human Rights as a Last resort.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    No, the issue is not about European intervention. It's about one man, and whether or not we should risk him being tortured.
    And that's why it's about Europe: our highest authority has said torture isn't a substantial enough risk to prevent his extradition, yet they've been overruled by a European court.


    And if the Conservative party and UKIP don't like European intervention in British matters, why don't they pull us out of the ECHR? I'd make sure the whole electorate knew that our human rights had been repealed, don't worry.
    This isn't the issue. We want free trade with Europe, but they're meddling too much in our affairs for it to be worth it.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    And if the Conservative party and UKIP don't like European intervention in British matters, why don't they pull us out of the ECHR? I'd make sure the whole electorate knew that our human rights had been repealed, don't worry.
    To be fair, ECHR has over-stepped the mark, it is one thing to uphold human rights but to prevent terrorist, criminals and others from being deported for as small reason as they have a cat thus a life has been built up here... yes he may be tortured in Jordan but that is not for us to worry about as he is not a British citizen.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    Lol. So this issue has nothing to do with Europe - but you say you'd 'enjoy sticking two fingers up at Europe' then go on to whine hysterically about Eurocrats as usual.

    It's always about Europe for you nutters. Just let it go.
    If Qatada was wanted in America, he'd have been extradited already, regardless of what the ECHR says.

    We must adopt the same extradition policy with all countries
Updated: April 21, 2012
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