[Luxray]

What are your thoughts on this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...i-muslim-video

I found her views quite inspiring because like her, I like to question and explore my religion to understand it better.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by Luxray)
What are your thoughts on this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...i-muslim-video

I found her views quite inspiring because like her, I like to question and explore my religion to understand it better.

No such thing as a moderate Muslim nor do I agree with reforming Islam.
The problems we have in the Muslim world today is that we some scholars who aren't proper scholars at all, they are influenced by their own greed or by external things other than Islam like the house of saud where they make fatwa's which fit them.
Other problem is culture where Muslims get brought up as though their cultural practices, etc is their faith as well when many things go against Islam.


What should be happening is that Muslims need to be educated better on their faith and rid themselves of their cultural practices and their greed.....and follow what Islam was in the first place.



Another thing is that 'reforming' will lead to Islam being changed for people's desires, we'll have bigger divisions based on what people want from their faith leading to the many groups you have in Christianity. Islam is already split as it is because of stupid reasons, their should be unity, not reforming which will ultimately change into other than what Muslims believe is divine but instead many will question it and say its become man made now.

[Danen]

shame this woman has to live under 24h protection.

[Xsmurfy786x]

Lmao danen are you on an Islamic vibe?

[Luxray]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
No such thing as a moderate Muslim nor do I agree with reforming Islam.
The problems we have in the Muslim world today is that we some scholars who aren't proper scholars at all, they are influenced by their own greed or by external things other than Islam like the house of saud where they make fatwa's which fit them.
Other problem is culture where Muslims get brought up as though their cultural practices, etc is their faith as well when many things go against Islam.


What should be happening is that Muslims need to be educated better on their faith and rid themselves of their cultural practices and their greed.....and follow what Islam was in the first place.



Another thing is that 'reforming' will lead to Islam being changed for people's desires, we'll have bigger divisions based on what people want from their faith leading to the many groups you have in Christianity. Islam is already split as it is because of stupid reasons, their should be unity, not reforming which will ultimately change into other than what Muslims believe is divine but instead many will question it and say its become man made now.

I agree with what you said about separation of cultural values and Islam.

But like she mentioned in the video, Islam is being monopolised by certain scholars who have these values and people are taking things at face value.
For example my Dad loves watching Zakir Naik and he takes everything the guy says as 'correct' whereas I don't trust everything he says.

Blahh I don't think I've replied to your post properly, Im not good at explaining my views on this matter =/

[Darth Stewie]

Although i respect her goals and wish her the best of luck i don't think she will be successful and i don't think Islam will go through any type of reform any time soon.

Islam is a religion that has a lot of sects which are taught by a lot of self appointed Imams all with different views but all sharing one very key one, the quran is the word of god and you cannot change the word of god, that alone presents a nearly impassable wall for anyone wishing to reform Islam.

A lot of Muslims also still hold this idea that the problem is "Islam isn't being done right in the world!!" which as an argument is identical to the argument for communism and also shares the same pitfalls. On paper communism sounds like a fantastic system, better equality, diversity, no alienation, no classes and no exploitation. so why don't we have communism? Because what something can hypothetically be and what something actually will be are two completely different things. the hypothetical uncorrupted Islam like the hypothetical communist state will never work in the real world because it goes against some very fundamental aspects of human nature.

"Uncorrupted" Islam is a pipe dream and incompatible with the world we live in, no Islamic country has ever had it because it can't and won't exist at any point in the real world because people will always want power, money and self satisfaction. Likewise the idea of a reformed Islam is doomed to fail due to the very core beliefs surrounding their holy book and where it comes from, in their eyes their god can't be wrong and anyone who says otherwise is incorrect.

[Reform]

Another Islamic sect?

Why is she trying to divide Islam?

As Muslims, all we need is the Quran and Sunnah.

We follow the Prophet pbuh and his example and we interpret the Quran and Sunnah like the first three generations of Islam.

We don't need a reformation of Islam. We don't need innovations.

[Luxray]

(Original post by Reform)
Another Islamic sect?

Why is she trying to divide Islam?

As Muslims, all we need is the Quran and Sunnah.

We follow the Prophet pbuh and his example and we interpret the Quran and Sunnah like the first three generations of Islam.

We don't need a reformation of Islam. We don't need innovations.

Your name really confuses things


That may be all we need but that isn't what Islam has right now. Right now there are people out there in the world making interpretrations of Islam which lead to the oppression of women, for example.

[Luxray]

(Original post by Darth Stewie)
Although i respect her goals and wish her the best of luck i don't think she will be successful and i don't think Islam will go through any type of reform any time soon.

Islam is a religion that has a lot of sects which are taught by a lot of self appointed Imams all with different views but all sharing one very key one, the quran is the word of god and you cannot change the word of god, that alone presents a nearly impassable wall for anyone wishing to reform Islam.

A lot of Muslims also still hold this idea that the problem is "Islam isn't being done right in the world!!" which as an argument is identical to the argument for communism and also shares the same pitfalls. On paper communism sounds like a fantastic system, better equality, diversity, no alienation, no classes and no exploitation. so why don't we have communism? Because what something can hypothetically be and what something actually will be are two completely different things. the hypothetical uncorrupted Islam like the hypothetical communist state will never work in the real world because it goes against some very fundamental aspects of human nature.

"Uncorrupted" Islam is a pipe dream and incompatible with the world we live in, no Islamic country has ever had it because it can't and won't exist at any point in the real world because people will always want power, money and self satisfaction. Likewise the idea of a reformed Islam is doomed to fail due to the very core beliefs surrounding their holy book and where it comes from, in their eyes their god can't be wrong and anyone who says otherwise is incorrect.

You can't change the word of God but you can try interpreting it and possibly misinterpreting it (i.e. saying women shouldn't drive cars for some wierd, stupid reason).
I think she understands that there can't be an uncorrupt Islam but what she is after is the general Muslim population need to understand that they should not be afraid to question Islam and break out from group identity.

[Darth Stewie]

(Original post by Luxray)
You can't change the word of God but you can try interpreting it and possibly misinterpreting it (i.e. saying women shouldn't drive cars for some wierd, stupid reason).
I think she understands that there can't be an uncorrupt Islam but what she is after is the general Muslim population need to understand that they should not be afraid to question Islam and break out from group identity.

But the vast majority do seem...well afraid might be the wrong word because that implies they will be in danger for doing so which although might be the case for some (in which case the issue is a lot more complicated) but for the others questioning Islam seems to be a social taboo within their communities which just isn't done. Although breaking that may be theoretically possible, when you have a community like many in the west where the Imam is self appointed and the youth are becoming more and more conservative trying to convince them to adopt more liberal values is a mammoth task and there is every chance they will see this as an attack on their beliefs and respond with hostility.

I fully support her goals and especially considering the growing animosity towards Islam in the west hope she at least partially succeeds but pretty much think that the second she stands up in a community that has youth becoming more conservative and tries telling them to question their interpretations and views they will flip her the bird so to speak because they will just view it as an attack on their beliefs and an attempt at getting them to abandon them.

For instance one issue she talked about is tolerance towards homosexuality, according to this study (page 47)

http://dvmx.com/British_Muslim_Youth.pdf

71% of the people asked between the ages of 16-24 think homosexuality is wrong and should be illegal. by comparison only 50% of the 55+ group though it is wrong and should be illegal. The majority of the Islamic youth is becoming more and more hard line and as a result the idea of promoting a more liberal tolerant interpretation of Islam will probably just fall on ears that don't want to hear it.

I do have the utmost respect for this lady and do genuinely wish to be proven wrong in the future but unfortunately i just can't see her plans for reformation ever coming to fruition.

[King-Panther]

BIDDAH!

[King-Panther]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
No such thing as a moderate Muslim nor do I agree with reforming Islam.
The problems we have in the Muslim world today is that we some scholars who aren't proper scholars at all, they are influenced by their own greed or by external things other than Islam like the house of saud where they make fatwa's which fit them.
Other problem is culture where Muslims get brought up as though their cultural practices, etc is their faith as well when many things go against Islam.


What should be happening is that Muslims need to be educated better on their faith and rid themselves of their cultural practices and their greed.....and follow what Islam was in the first place.



Another thing is that 'reforming' will lead to Islam being changed for people's desires, we'll have bigger divisions based on what people want from their faith leading to the many groups you have in Christianity. Islam is already split as it is because of stupid reasons, their should be unity, not reforming which will ultimately change into other than what Muslims believe is divine but instead many will question it and say its become man made now.

As long as its not biddah!

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by King-Panther)
As long as its not biddah!

Do you yourself think any different interpretation of the Qur'an would be bidah?

Also, you're back not revising

[King-Panther]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
Do you yourself think any different interpretation of the Qur'an would be bidah?

Also, you're back not revising

No, biddah is innovation, to create or introduce something that was not there at the time of the prophet...

Saudi arabia is an example, muhammed introduced rights for women, but saudi is restricting that, muhammed allowed other faiths to live along side the muslims and even allowed them to live by their own laws, saudi doesn't.

I know, i need to!

[sweetascandy]

(Original post by Reform)
Another Islamic sect?
Why is she trying to divide Islam?

As Muslims, all we need is the Quran and Sunnah.

We follow the Prophet pbuh and his example and we interpret the Quran and Sunnah like the first three generations of Islam.

We don't need a reformation of Islam. We don't need innovations.

Well your username suggests otherwise.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist )

[D0LLxo]

(Original post by Darth Stewie)
But the vast majority do seem...well afraid might be the wrong word because that implies they will be in danger for doing so which although might be the case for some (in which case the issue is a lot more complicated) but for the others questioning Islam seems to be a social taboo within their communities which just isn't done. Although breaking that may be theoretically possible, when you have a community like many in the west where the Imam is self appointed and the youth are becoming more and more conservative trying to convince them to adopt more liberal values is a mammoth task and there is every chance they will see this as an attack on their beliefs and respond with hostility.

I fully support her goals and especially considering the growing animosity towards Islam in the west hope she at least partially succeeds but pretty much think that the second she stands up in a community that has youth becoming more conservative and tries to get them to move towards more liberal interpretations and views they will flip her the bird so to speak because they will just view it as an attack on their beliefs.

For instance one issue she talked about is tolerence towards homosexuality, according to this study (page 47)

http://dvmx.com/British_Muslim_Youth.pdf

71% of the people asked between the ages of 16-24 think homosexuality is wrong and should be illegal. by comparison only 50% of the 55+ group though it is wrong and should be illegal. The majority of the Islamic youth is becoming more and more hard line and as a result the idea of promoting a more liberal tolerant interpretation of Islam will probably just fall on ears that don't want to hear it.

I do have the utmost respect for this lady and do genuinely wish to be proven wrong in the future but unfortunately i just can't see her plans for reformation ever coming to fruition.

Damn straight! Sorry, but for me, liberal vegan homosexual Muslims are just the opposite extreme of angry radicals who want everyone to burn in Hell.

I have nothing against vegans, homosexuals or radicals -- just don't manipulate Islam to support your argument.

[I-Am-A-Tripod]

(Original post by King-Panther)
No, biddah is innovation, to create or introduce something that was not there at the time of the prophet...

Saudi arabia is an example, muhammed introduced rights for women, but saudi is restricting that, muhammed allowed other faiths to live along side the muslims and even allowed them to live by their own laws, saudi doesn't.

I know, i need to!

Surely the modern world is full of things that werent there at 'the time of the prophet'
So praciticing islam today has to be 'biddah' How could you have not realised this?

biddah this, biddah that doesnt harm anyone

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by King-Panther)
No, biddah is innovation, to create or introduce something that was not there at the time of the prophet...

Saudi arabia is an example, muhammed introduced rights for women, but saudi is restricting that, muhammed allowed other faiths to live along side the muslims and even allowed them to live by their own laws, saudi doesn't.

I know, i need to!

Yeah I know what it is, I just thought from what you'd said to others that you might consider alternative interpretations as bidah

Yeah Saudi are idiots. But I won't get into that as I've already spent half of the night slagging them off...

[yomomalomo]

I was always under the assumption that bidah (innovation, here in the religious kind) was something that muslims should be highly sceptical about and usually dismiss. The religion, and religions in general, are based upon practices and traditions. In Islam the tradition maker was Muhammad and the sunni muslims (the majority) follow his traditions.

When you start reinterpreting traditions or abandoning certain ones you end up losing the definite lines that construct the theology of your faith. Each person (individually now) has a different interpretation to the next one and follows his own different interpretations and has his own relationship with his Creator. This essentially weakens the bond between Muslims as a whole as people become more individualistic and less conservative. This is not something that any Muslim country would want or any or the current Ulema in those countries. They would lose their power and control and see their people fall into decadence (in their eyes).

To a certain extent I agree with here, when looking at Christianity, it hasn't seem to do them much harm. Some traditions and beliefs such as you should always eat sitting down, seem pedantic and useless - you're not going to die if you eat a biscuit standing up! Other traditions and criminal penalties I don't see how you can reinterpret. Some are very bold and condemning in their language - the death penalty can't be reformed

Nevertheless, I think it is good that she is trying to bring some reform or at least tolerance of other people's beliefs and views in general as that is something that the Islamic world is very bad with at the moment. It would help the view of Muslims throughout the world and enable greater integration between us and people of other faiths and cultures. If it happens though, there will no doubt be much trouble and a great struggle - just like the reformation of the church. But I'll repeat it again, Muslims wont want this because they can see what has happened to Christendom, through the reform, renaissance and enlightenment, many people either splintered or left Christianity all together (without any harm done), this weakened the church and split it entirely from state - current Ulema and Islamic states/theocracies would be highly damning of this idea as they would lose their religious, political and economic monopolies over their people and country.

[King-Panther]

(Original post by I-Am-A-Tripod)
Surely the modern world is full of things that werent there at 'the time of the prophet'
So praciticing islam today has to be 'biddah' How could you have not realised this?

biddah this, biddah that doesnt harm anyone

In terms of practising islam, no, I don't do anything new.

Thought you were clever there for a second, hard luck.

I don't harm anyone, nor does islam, some crazy muslims might, but its not like crazy non muslims don't harm anyone (g bush).