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Sexism is still rife in society and always will be

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    (Original post by Steevee)
    And have you considered that maybe that's simply because there is a different dynamic there?

    I could go up to one of my male mates and say 'Alright c***' and it would be perfectly normal, if I tried that with any number of my other mates, male or female, it would not go down well.

    Rigghhtt..

    And no my dear, I said I've met girls like you, because I've met girls like you. I know plenty of girls who have banter and are a laugh. But you seem like the girls that think they can say and do what they want with guys on the basis that 'Hey, they're guys, they can take it', and then say we're just being sexist when we suddenly don't react 100% to your 'banter'. There are plenty of douchebags out there who are guys to, and do exactly the same thing, but at least they don't try and blame it on sexism.
    Im talking about reactions by the same people here.

    You have never met me. I can assure your totally unfounded judgement is wrong.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Doesn't mean I am not nice to them! I'm lovely to my friends gf (the one that I really dislike because she is rude and refuses to talk to any of us most of the time), I always chat to her, I even made her a cake Just because you dislike someone is not an excuse to be horrible to them!!
    Perhaps I'm missing something, as I haven't read the original thread. However, as a shy/introverted person myself, have you ever thought that perhaps she doesn't talk to you because she finds confident, loud extroverts such as you and your friends quite intimidating? I know I do.
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    (Original post by snowyowl)
    Perhaps I'm missing something, as I haven't read the original thread. However, as a shy/introverted person myself, have you ever thought that perhaps she doesn't talk to you because she finds confident, loud extroverts such as you and your friends quite intimidating? I know I do.
    Yeah but you think after two years of me trying ridiculously hard and toning down conversations whenever she is around she would actually bother to engage. Also her boyfriend is as extroverted as I am so that is no excuse. But anyway I have been through this on another thread, being introverted is no excuse for being rude. However all introverts on here and most I come across on a day to day basis seem to think it is.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Yeah but you think after two years of me trying ridiculously hard and toning down conversations whenever she is around she would actually bother to engage. Also her boyfriend is as extroverted as I am so that is no excuse. But anyway I have been through this on another thread, being introverted is no excuse for being rude. However all introverts on here and most I come across on a day to day basis seem to think it is.
    Being an extrovert is no excuse for being a bully and hating people for not wanting to talk to you.

    You are giving extroverts a bad name, fortunately the ones I've met and associate with are a tad more open minded than you.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Yeah but you think after two years of me trying ridiculously hard and toning down conversations whenever she is around she would actually bother to engage. Also her boyfriend is as extroverted as I am so that is no excuse. But anyway I have been through this on another thread, being introverted is no excuse for being rude. However all introverts on here and most I come across on a day to day basis seem to think it is.
    Well I'm not her so I can only speak from personal experience. However, I know that when I'm quiet, shy and don't say much (for example when talking to my boyfriend's mother, although I've been a lot better recently), I am not trying to be rude. I realise that others may perceive me as rude, but I just can't be any more loud and confident, hard as I try.

    My boyfriend is an extrovert too and he finds it easy to meet new people, whereas I feel intimidated by anyone new I meet. Once I get to know them I am absolutely fine though.

    I don't know how best to explain it. Something holds me back from being loud and confident, starting conversation, makling jokes. It does feel like a physical barrier that I can't break through.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to type so much. I just wish extroverts such as yourself would see that we aren't rude, we just can't be confident like you are.
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    There is no denying that! idiots will remain idiots, sadly!
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    (Original post by snowyowl)
    Well I'm not her so I can only speak from personal experience. However, I know that when I'm quiet, shy and don't say much (for example when talking to my boyfriend's mother, although I've been a lot better recently), I am not trying to be rude. I realise that others may perceive me as rude, but I just can't be any more loud and confident, hard as I try.

    My boyfriend is an extrovert too and he finds it easy to meet new people, whereas I feel intimidated by anyone new I meet. Once I get to know them I am absolutely fine though.

    I don't know how best to explain it. Something holds me back from being loud and confident, starting conversation, makling jokes. It does feel like a physical barrier that I can't break through.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to type so much. I just wish extroverts such as yourself would see that we aren't rude, we just can't be confident like you are.
    1. It's not just that, if I start a conversation with her, she will very rarely allow it to continue
    As in: 'Hi, how are you?' 'Good'
    'How is the course going' 'ok'
    'How was your holiday? Get up to much?' 'ok, not really'
    And she just sits there in silence whenever she is forced to spend time with the rest of our flat =/ I just leave the room these days because I cant stand the weird silence that descends whenever she is around. She makes me uncomfortable in my own home.
    She knows us all, we've known her for two years almost now. I mean fair enough if you are shy and have just met the person, but it is obvious she just cannot be bothered to make the effort with us.

    It's not perceiving you as rude, whether you are trying to be or not, you are being rude. Well, ok, she is rude, and if you behave like her then yes, you are being rude. Obviously I don't know you and haven't interacted with you so cannot pass that judgement on you personally. Sorry.
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    (Original post by HSG1992)
    Being an extrovert is no excuse for being a bully and hating people for not wanting to talk to you.

    You are giving extroverts a bad name, fortunately the ones I've met and associate with are a tad more open minded than you.
    How am I giving extroverts a bad name? As I have already stated, I never said I hated introverts. I just find them to often be very rude and for this reason they make me uncomfortable. Also, how am I an any way a bully? If you would actually bother to read this thread I already stated very clearly that I do not view disliking someone as a reason not to be nice to them.

    Don't throw accusations like that around lightly in future please. Especially when you can't even be bothered to read what has been said previously in the thread. You are obviously the one with issues of how nice you are to people here and not me. Not to mention ignorant.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    How am I giving extroverts a bad name? As I have already stated, I never said I hated introverts. I just find them to often be very rude and for this reason they make me uncomfortable. Also, how am I an any way a bully? If you would actually bother to read this thread I already stated very clearly that I do not view disliking someone as a reason not to be nice to them.

    Don't throw accusations like that around lightly in future please. Especially when you can't even be bothered to read what has been said previously in the thread. You are obviously the one with issues of how nice you are to people here and not me. Not to mention ignorant.
    A wise (wo)man speaks because (s)he has something to say; a fool because (s)he has to say something. - Plato.

    Edited to remove potential sexism.
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    I like independent and badass women more than really girly and confused ones, as long as they're not militant feminists.
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    (Original post by HSG1992)
    A wise (wo)man speaks because (s)he has something to say; a fool because (s)he has to say something. - Plato.

    Edited to remove potential sexism.
    That did not address my questions in any way shape or form, and wasn't particularly relevant to what I just said.In fact it's kindof ironic given the content of your post that it was just words for words sake. Just another slur on me for being an extrovet, maybe you are the one that needs to be less judgemental. I would like to know what evidence you have for me being a bully please? Either that or an apology for your unfounded accusation and for being so insulting.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    That did not address my questions in any way shape or form, and wasn't particularly relevant to what I just said.In fact it's kindof ironic given the content of your post that it was just words for words sake. Just another slur on me for being an extrovet, maybe you are the one that needs to be less judgemental. I would like to know what evidence you have for me being a bully please? Either that or an apology for your unfounded accusation and for being so insulting.
    Alright you clearly just enjoy the sound of your own voice or the way your words look on your monitor so go find someone else to keep you entertained.
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    A lot of girls probably don't like you because generally girls do not like "banter". What guys say to each other as jokes would often deeply offend a girl. For example, my brother's friend who is quite large said he'd lost some weight and has no one noticed, and one of his friends replied "Yeah I could tell because you've lost one of your chins". All the lads including the one he just insulted burst out laughing. I guarantee you if a girl would have said that to another girl they wouldn't be friends anymore. When a girl tries to have "banter" like a lad would with other girls it isn't seen as banter, it's seen as being a rude bitch. That's not to say you are in the wrong trying to behave the same way around girls as you do around guys, but it's really not going to go down well.
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    (Original post by HSG1992)
    Alright you clearly just enjoy the sound of your own voice or the way your words look on your monitor so go find someone else to keep you entertained.
    Don't be so rude and insulting. There is just no need for it. Introverts always seem to think they are so superior. Which is why I find you so rude.
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    (Original post by laura130490)
    A lot of girls probably don't like you because generally girls do not like "banter". What guys say to each other as jokes would often deeply offend a girl. For example, my brother's friend who is quite large said he'd lost some weight and has no one noticed, and one of his friends replied "Yeah I could tell because you've lost one of your chins". All the lads including the one he just insulted burst out laughing. I guarantee you if a girl would have said that to another girl they wouldn't be friends anymore. When a girl tries to have "banter" like a lad would with other girls it isn't seen as banter, it's seen as being a rude bitch. That's not to say you are in the wrong trying to behave the same way around girls as you do around guys, but it's really not going to go down well.
    No girls take banter off guys with a giggle all the time. But if a girl says it they take offence. If a guy said that to a girl most would just laugh it off. Some would run away crying but they wouldn't get angry at the guy and actively be cruel to him.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    But surely individuals are different too? Why, just because I don't fit societies stereotype of my gender, should people dislike me?

    I'll admit obviously there are differences between men and women, but behaving the way society expects women to is not one of those differences, it is a product of society, quite clearly proven by those of us that have grown up not fitting that at all.
    You're right, it's not always clear cut. It's a mixture of biological differences, and gender role socialisation.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    No girls take banter off guys with a giggle all the time. But if a girl says it they take offence. If a guy said that to a girl most would just laugh it off. Some would run away crying but they wouldn't get angry at the guy and actively be cruel to him.
    I don't know any girl that would take that off a guy and not be upset or angry about it. I don't know any guy that would even say something like that to a girl tbh, not unless he was her brother or something. The point is, unfortunately as a girl, you cannot have banter with other girls without being seen as a nasty bitch. Guys might be able to get away with slightly more because girls know that's what a lot of guys are like and there's no malice behind it. But when a girl says something like that another girl will assume they are doing it to be nasty, not just to have "banter", because most girls don't banter.
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    (Original post by BadCoverVersion)
    The sad part is that its so ingrained we just accept the patriarchy as the status quo. The truth is that sexism is often socially subliminal for most people, who will support feminism insofar as it just means equal pay and employment opportunities. In my experience, very few men will ever come to see the world this way, simply because its much easier to fall back into the default male roles laid out by society. Sadly, many women like you seem to fall into a gap.
    Attitudes like this don't encourage men to sympathise with you. I strongly believe in equal rights for everybody, regardless of what colour/bits between your legs/sexual orientation/race you were born with/as. Unfortunately, whenever I've talked to feminists about this I always leave the conversation feeling like a jerk just for being born a guy. I'm told "You can't understand", "You're still subliminally sexist" etc.

    It really makes it hard to still try and be on the side of a group that dismisses anything you have to say.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I'm not talking about the obvious things, like the pay gap, or women in sport etc etc.
    I'm talking about the way we are brought up and this ingrained idea of 'female traits' and 'male traits, that is forced upon all of us from a very early age.

    As a girl that has always struggled with female relationships from around the age of four, I always had male friends. Instead of ballet I went to football, much to my dads pleasure and mums disappointment, and I was always getting into scraps in the playground. As I have got older I have made some female friends, but has been a struggle.

    As a girl the expectation is that you must be vulnerable, and show these vulnerabilities to other girls in order to enter into a friendship. As a result of severe bullying throughout my school-life I am unable to do this. This leaves the majority of female relationships closed to me.

    Similarly, as a girl, 'banter' and joking does not go down well.
    I have always been brought up to take the piss and it is amazing how many people of both genders take it far too seriously coming from a girl, when from a guy they just laugh it off. I have the same problem with the fact I am independant and outspoken. I get a lot of guys cutting me down in conversations, or cutting me out altogether.
    An example of this was me taking the piss out of a friend of mine, his housemate turns to me and says 'Oh, she thinks she's funny, doesn't she'. I would have though 21 year old male students had got past the point of finding independent outspoken females threatening, but apparently not.

    Ingrained in both genders is the expectation of girls to be womanly, needy, vulnerable and most of all submissive. It is not immediately obvious to most as the majority have the fortune of fitting these stereotypes imposed upon them by society, but as someone who doesn't really fit the extent of this issue has recently become blindingly obvious. I have come to realise the reason I have always resented being born a girl, and the reason I have always struggled with relationships other than friendships with men (Despite all the male complaints about girls liking shopping and not football I've heard over the years, 99% of the male population would never date a girl that likes football and hates shopping seemingly).

    I would also add that I am sure that the opposite is true for men, and this is equally as ****. Although In my experience girls are a lot more forgiving in terms of relationships with these types of guys, and in some case even prefer them.

    Can anyone see this deep rooted sexism going away?
    To what extent do people think this is an issue in society?
    Unless the whole planet are completely bisexual (and even then, who knows), men and women are going to be treated differently. Our world is filled with an overwhelming majority of heterosexuals, and even if it weren't the case that lesbians, gays and bisexuals have been pressured/forced to hide their sexuality, men and women are going to be treated differently by men and women (in general, of course).

    It's just the way people are, I suppose. There isn't any malicious sexism there in that they don't want to hurt you, but they do want their "guy time", and since they still see you as a girl, they'll always be feeling they have to change their behaviour around you, no matter how much you insist you won't be offended.

    I don't think it's going to go away in the foreseeable future, but things can change. Possibly the law's had an effect on what people went to do, but these days there isn't too much that the law discriminates between men and women - whilst once men were required to join the army and women had to obey their husbands, the biggest difference these days is probably maternity/paternity pay/leave (at least in this country), and you can see the difference. Even then though you'd probably predict mothers wanting to stay at home with newborns more than fathers if things were equal.

    It's clearly an issue for some, but I just don't see any way to fix it. I'd even go as far as to say if that's how people are, I wouldn't want to fix it. Can someone really be prosecuted for wanting to spend time with a group of solely men rather than have some women along too? I can think of quite a few shopping trips that would fall through if the group were required to have a 50:50 male:female split. As for a more subtle fix, I think the government's options aren't too many. Seemingly the only sex discrimination that's publicly acceptable are for new parents - as I've mentioned above, I don't think this will have much of an effect unless you were to very heavily over-encourage fathers to be the primary carers, and this won't go down well - and for the retirement age, which is being phased out anyway and only really kicks in when you've got someone near retirement age wanting a job, well after the other issues have had their impact.
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    As long as women sweep the kitchen and make me my sammiches I don't care lol

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