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Why was there a furore over the "granny tax"?

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    It wasn't even a tax! It's the slow phasing out of an age related perk.

    The harmonisation of the personal allowance across all age groups is justified on the basis of fairness and simplicity, providing some with additional tax breaks at the expense of others is a policy that unfortunately stokes resentment and mistust between the generations. It's political favouritism.

    Osbourne is right to stop picking the pockets of the young to pay for the benefits of the retired and inactive. Some of whom are extraordinarily rich.

    Thoughts?
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    Agreed.
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    considering the vast majority have worked their whole lives and put a large amount of money in to the system im going to have to say that i do disagree with this.
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    considering the vast majority have worked their whole lives and put a large amount of money in to the system im going to have to say that i do disagree with this.
    They also take an awful lot out of the system, pensions alone cost £100bn per year and this money is raised with taxes on the young and productive.

    We all want and need tax breaks, if there are perks available we should spread them around evenly rather than handing them to the few at the expense of the many.
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    considering the vast majority have worked their whole lives and put a large amount of money in to the system im going to have to say that i do disagree with this.
    They have not paid enough. How do I know this?

    Because we have £4,000,000,000,000 national debt - including pension liabilities.
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    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    Agreed.
    Classical Liberal agreed which means I should also agree as he/she seems to give the best answer to every thread I read.

    Seriously though...

    I absolutely agree with you. The only reason I saw the political outrage was because older people are a lot more involved in politics and they make a much larger percentage of newspaper readers so they're going to have their views represented the most. I think the new changes have given us a fairer tax system and I welcome them in.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    They also take an awful lot out of the system, pensions alone cost £100bn per year and this money is raised with taxes on the young and productive.

    We all want and need tax breaks, if there are perks available we should spread them around evenly rather than handing them to the few at the expense of the many.
    theyve put more in to the system than anyone else on averhge theyve each paid £250,000 in tax during their life time ... this compared to what theyre being paid in pensions is pittance.

    i know where youre coming from but either way its going to be horribly unfair to either the younger generations or the older ones and lets be honest the old have done more to deserve it, why continue punishing people later on in life? after all its not their fault the current financial mess.

    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    They have not paid enough. How do I know this?

    Because we have £4,000,000,000,000 national debt - including pension liabilities.
    that may be but why punish them further considering theyve done nothing but pay the state their entire lives? theyve earned these perks.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    It wasn't even a tax! It's the slow phasing out of an age related perk.

    The harmonisation of the personal allowance across all age groups is justified on the basis of fairness and simplicity, providing some with additional tax breaks at the expense of others is a policy that unfortunately stokes resentment and mistust between the generations. It's political favouritism.

    Osbourne is right to stop picking the pockets of the young to pay for the benefits of the retired and inactive. Some of whom are extraordinarily rich.

    Thoughts?

    How many people in the older generation are rich? Many of them you say? Why that is an unbelievable claim good sir!

    What with all these pensioners claiming winter fuel allowance because they are barely living on what they have! RAWR! Lets all put em on trial!!!

    or dont forget those who are committing suicide because they have been left with no other option after losing their pensions, livelihoods and having nobody there to be with them...Yup, such a good and rich life!

    Lets not forget the carehome scandal. Lose your home and become a husk of your former self and looked after by slobbering dullards who are only in it to take the piss and claim their job cheque.


    Are you still a slobbering retard OP or is this not registering.

    My mum has just retired and struggled to get into any job role because of her age. A world of experience and she is a healthy 61 year old, no dementia in sight, former nurse and teacher who then went into the police force these past 4 years and was good at it.

    She had ZERO chance against younger people.

    Elderly people are not young people.

    Heres the difference.

    Old people;

    - Not as strong
    - Vulnerable to the weather
    - Vulnerable to con artists
    - Vulnerable on pensions
    - Vulnerable to more disease
    - Vulnerable to being alone

    To think my age group hates its older generation is just sickening. You'll be old one day kid, so dont think you're invincible all your useless life.
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    theyve put more in to the system than anyone else on averhge theyve each paid £250,000 in tax during their life time ... this compared to what theyre being paid in pensions is pittance.

    i know where youre coming from but either way its going to be horribly unfair to either the younger generations or the older ones and lets be honest the old have done more to deserve it, why continue punishing people later on in life? after all its not their fault the current financial mess.
    They're not being "punished" though, their tax allowances are being brought into line with everybody elses. How is that a punishment? Pensioners get a raft of cash and non-cash benefits including the winter fuel allowance, free bus passes, free T.V licences freedom from national insurance, unconditional use of the NHS, it's about time weak politicians stopped bribing them at the direct expense of future generations.
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    (Original post by HARRY PUTAH)
    Are you a ****ing idiot or just insanely up your own arse?

    Probably both, so here I am about to explain to you how stupid you actually are and anyone who agrees with you.

    How many people in the older generation are rich? Many of them you say? Why that is an unbelievable claim good sir!

    What with all these pensioners claiming winter fuel allowance because they are barely living on what they have! RAWR! Lets all put em on trial!!!

    or dont forget those who are committing suicide because they have been left with no other option after losing their pensions, livelihoods and having nobody there to be with them...Yup, such a good and rich life!

    Lets not forget the carehome scandal. Lose your home and become a husk of your former self and looked after by slobbering dullards who are only in it to take the piss and claim their job cheque.


    Are you still a slobbering retard OP or is this not registering.

    My mum has just retired and struggled to get into any job role because of her age. A world of experience and she is a healthy 61 year old, no dementia in sight, former nurse and teacher who then went into the police force these past 4 years and was good at it.

    She had ZERO chance against younger people.

    Elderly people are not young people.

    Heres the difference.

    Old people;

    - Not as strong
    - Vulnerable to the weather
    - Vulnerable to con artists
    - Vulnerable on pensions
    - Vulnerable to more disease
    - Vulnerable to being alone

    To think my age group hates its older generation is just sickening. You'll be old one day kid, so dont think you're invincible all your useless life.

    If your mum is struggling to find a job the freezing of the personal allowance won't affect her, will it? :facepalm2:
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    They're not being "punished" though, their tax allowances are being brought into line with everybody elses. How is that a punishment? Pensioners get a raft of cash and non-cash benefits including the winter fuel allowance, free bus passes, free T.V licences freedom from national insurance, unconditional use of the NHS, it's about time weak politicians stopped bribing them at the direct expense of future generations.
    these arent bribes? theyre rewards for the decades of hard work theyve put into this country so people can enjoy its infrastructure and services and the fact that a large majority of them are poor.. you think people will be claiming a fuel allowance if they are wealthy? you think the wealthy ones will bother getting a couple of quid off a bus ticket? these perks exist because the majority need them..

    why should someone whose contributed hundreds of thousands of pounds to the state be treated the same as someone whose done very little?

    they get these benefits because the vast majority have earned them and need them they have spent their lives slaving away for this country and in mine and the majority of the populations opinion they are entitled to be cut some slack hte fact youre comparing this to political bribary or pandering is to be honest, wrong..
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    To be honest this is the media reacting against what they saw as an attempt to micro-manage the media by George Osbornes office and his advisers, before the budget they were working hard at the press, wanting to make sure that the budget was reported in exactly the way they wanted, especially over the reduction in the top rate of income tax etc. Unfortunately this approach must have grated against even Conservative supporting newspapers so they reacted by launching into him over the "granny tax" and "pie and pasty tax", they wanted something to have a go at him.

    There are higher agendas at play here and George Osborne has made some enemies in high places, in the way Liam Fox did a few months back. Osborne until recently was seen as a powerful figure in the Coalition, the "Chief Executive" of the government and the heir apparent to Cameron, which he might still be, but something has gone on where he has rubbed people up the wrong way in the media or in his own party or both, because the recent attacks on Osborne have not been from the left but from the right.
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    that may be but why punish them further considering theyve done nothing but pay the state their entire lives? theyve earned these perks.
    They have not earned the perks though.

    It is like me buying a Ferrari and going into debt to pay for it. Have I earnt the Ferrari? Ofcourse not. But I will pay the back the debt later.

    Unlike the old, who will die and saddle unborn generations with said debt.
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    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    They have not earned the perks though.

    It is like me buying a Ferrari and going into debt to pay for it. Have I earnt the Ferrari? Ofcourse not. But I will pay the back the debt later.

    Unlike the old, who will die and saddle unborn generations with said debt.
    im curious how the ferrari analogy is relevant at all? it seems completely unrelated?

    so youre saying someone whos spent their entire life paying into the system isnt entitled one or two little kick backs and lets be honest they are little its not like the government is throwing gold bricks at them is it?

    are you honestly telling me when youre old and retired you want to carry on throwing all your money at the government who promised you a nice quiet retirement where theyd be taken care of [half the point of taxes...] would you really settle for this?
    would you mind explaining what you mean when you say saddle the younger generations with debt..?
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    these arent bribes? theyre rewards for the decades of hard work theyve put into this country so people can enjoy its infrastructure and services and the fact that a large majority of them are poor.. you think people will be claiming a fuel allowance if they are wealthy? you think the wealthy ones will bother getting a couple of quid off a bus ticket? these perks exist because the majority need them..

    why should someone whose contributed hundreds of thousands of pounds to the state be treated the same as someone whose done very little?

    they get these benefits because the vast majority have earned them and need them they have spent their lives slaving away for this country and in mine and the majority of the populations opinion they are entitled to be cut some slack hte fact youre comparing this to political bribary or pandering is to be honest, wrong..
    No they're definitely bribes, or as one Lib Dem peer put it the Winter Fuel Allowance is a "farcical tax-free bung". The fact is if these pensioners had contributed as much to the economy as you make out the state wouldn't be in hock to the tune of £trillions, the boomer generation in particular have loaded up on state freebies during the past 2-3 decades and taking far more than out than they'll even put in (even with the freezing of the personal allowance).

    Just being old doesn't give you the right to make endless demands on the young and productive. It doesn't work like that!
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    im curious how the ferrari analogy is relevant at all? it seems completely unrelated?

    so youre saying someone whos spent their entire life paying into the system isnt entitled one or two little kick backs and lets be honest they are little its not like the government is throwing gold bricks at them is it?

    are you honestly telling me when youre old and retired you want to carry on throwing all your money at the government who promised you a nice quiet retirement where theyd be taken care of [half the point of taxes...] would you really settle for this?
    would you mind explaining what you mean when you say saddle the younger generations with debt..?

    If these old people had spent their lives being as productive you suggest they wouldn't need miserable little perks such as only "getting a couple of quid off a bus ticket" as they'd have savings and hefty pension funds to fall back on.
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    im curious how the ferrari analogy is relevant at all? it seems completely unrelated?
    It is something that I am getting. Not because I have earnt it. But because I am going into debt. Just like how the nation pays for the old peoples state pensions, public sector pensions, fuel allowance, NHS and so on and so forth.

    With the Ferrari I pay back the debt myself. With entitlements for the old, the old are no longer earning therefore somebody else must pay the debt. Those people are those who are currently working and people who are unborn.

    so youre saying someone whos spent their entire life paying into the system isnt entitled one or two little kick backs and lets be honest they are little its not like the government is throwing gold bricks at them is it?
    They are entitled to something, although I would prefer we not pay as much into the system and keep more for ourselves, but not as much as the old currently get. They simply have not earnt it. That is why we have £4,000,000,000,000 national debt.

    are you honestly telling me when youre old and retired you want to carry on throwing all your money at the government who promised you a nice quiet retirement where theyd be taken care of [half the point of taxes...] would you really settle for this?
    When I am old and retired I want the government I want to live a mansion, a driver, nice golf clubs, etc. The fact of the matter though, is that I need to earn these things over my life, and the old have not earnt the benefits they currently get.

    would you mind explaining what you mean when you say saddle the younger generations with debt..?
    Who do you think will pay the £4,000,000,000,000 debt? The tooth fairy?
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    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    It is something that I am getting. Not because I have earnt it. But because I am going into debt. Just like how the nation pays for the old peoples state pensions, public sector pensions, fuel allowance, NHS and so on and so forth.

    With the Ferrari I pay back the debt myself. With entitlements for the old, the old are no longer earning therefore somebody else must pay the debt. Those people are those who are currently working and people who are unborn.

    so all the money theyve already putin to the country counts for nothing then aye..?

    They are entitled to something, although I would prefer we not pay as much into the system and keep more for ourselves, but not as much as the old currently get. They simply have not earnt it. That is why we have £4,000,000,000,000 national debt.

    we have under 1 trillion national debt? and we have that also due nto benefits, the nhs, construction projects, bail outs, wars etc. etc. i think youre placing far to much of the blame on the elderly..

    When I am old and retired I want the government I want to live a mansion, a driver, nice golf clubs, etc. The fact of the matter though, is that I need to earn these things over my life, and the old have not earnt the benefits they currently get.

    what point are you trying to make here? they have worked all their lives and due to the law and economics they can generally speaking no longer earn a wage even if they wanted to, when was the last time you saw an old biddy working in a bank, john lewis etc.?

    Who do you think will pay the £4,000,000,000,000 debt? The tooth fairy?
    youve failed to answer my question and simply created an entirely new one which i never made a point about.. the national debt is note solely, by any stretch of the imagination, down to the elderly. we all benefit from the money the government has spent ... be it the roads, rails, state hand outs, nhs etc. you cant blame the elderly for this debt as for a start a huge proportion of it was caused by the young... its only in the last few decades the national debt has sky rocketed so i fail to see how you can blaim an 80year old lady with her knitting needles for it ... they didnt cause the banks to collapse and add hundreds of billions to the national debt did they?
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    (Original post by calumsteele1)
    youve failed to answer my question and simply created an entirely new one which i never made a point about.. the national debt is note solely, by any stretch of the imagination, down to the elderly.
    Obviously it is not entirely down the elderly. But the old are the main beneficaries of welfare and government services. Most of what the government does is take money from young people and transfer to the old (even though the old hold most of the nations wealth). Why does this happen? Probably because the old are very politically active, not as ideologically driven as the young and thus open to bribes from politicians.


    we all benefit from the money the government has spent

    Wrong, somebody has to pay for it somewhere. The government has nothing. It can only spend by taking away from somebody else. And at the moment the government spends largely on the aged and charges the young and the unborn.

    ... they didnt cause the banks to collapse and add hundreds of billions to the national debt did they?
    The banking collapse will have little effect on the national debt (unlike the deficit) so this argument is void. And interestingly I think the banking crisis was caused by the inflation in the housing market. And guess who owns most of the nations houses. You guessed it..... the old.

    So the old have double ****ed us because we now need massive mortgages to buy their over priced homes. So the bastards have indebted the government and individuals personally.

    Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against the old. I just think our entire economic system is rigged up in their favour and is screwing us young people and our children over. It is an abomination.
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    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    Obviously it is not entirely down the elderly. But the old are the main beneficaries of welfare and government services. Most of what the government does is take money from young people and transfer to the old (even though the old hold most of the nations wealth). Why does this happen? Probably because the old are very politically active, not as ideologically driven as the young and thus open to bribes from politicians.


    well what exactly are you defining as old first...? i find your argument that 80year olds hold the majority of the nations wealth highly questionable to be honest.. it isnt the elderly who make fortunes working in the city, even if they are wealthy that simply means theyve paid even more in to the system validating my point further.. compensating someone for their service to the country is not bribery! do you call the national memorial services for the war dead bribery? theyve given to the country aswell but how dare we continue to remember that fact, wasting public money and all that..




    Wrong, somebody has to pay for it somewhere. The government has nothing. It can only spend by taking away from somebody else. And at the moment the government spends largely on the aged and charges the young and the unborn.

    well of course someone has to pay for it... they paid for the young before them and we will continue to pay for the young after us, if youve got a better way than that id like to hear it..

    The banking collapse will have little effect on the national debt (unlike the deficit) so this argument is void. And interestingly I think the banking crisis was caused by the inflation in the housing market. And guess who owns most of the nations houses. You guessed it..... the old.
    so the banking crisis didnt do any damage to the national debt? the cost of the crisis cost the uk tax payer about £850billion are you really trying to contend that had a negligable impact? yes they own the houses because theyve earned money to buy them just as every person wishes to do? the reason for house price inflation is because the government is building enough new ones in places people want to live...

    So the old have double ****ed us because we now need massive mortgages to buy their over priced homes. So the bastards have indebted the government and individuals personally.
    this is just wrong in so many ways...
    Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against the old. I just think our entire economic system is rigged up in their favour and is screwing us young people and our children over. It is an abomination.may i ask what makes you say this? you keep ignoring the fact that we are doing exactly what theyve done? they paid their taxes to build up the uk for them and future generations to live in .. if you dont like paying money to support britain as a whole then the door is open for you to leave ..
    your argument appears to be revolving around the idea that the entire uk budget goes to the elderly? where did you get this highly uestionable observation from?

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