[No Man]

(Original post by bkeevin)
You can also note that Greece ranks alot higher than any of Brazil, Russia, India or China!!! So it is not all to do with religion or economic prosperity. I would contend that culture, education and the relative openness/isolationism of the people are more important factors.

Those countries might have a lot of money, but they have a long way to go before being as widely developed as Westernised nations and certain nations in the Arabian peninsula. Economic prosperity =/= development.

But I agree with your points about culture, education and openness/isolationism.

I think openness to immigrants and low population also help (which can be said about most places in the Arabian peninsula)

[Politricks]

I wouldn't say some Afghan men exactly hate women, but just don't view them as worthy equals.

[Made in the USA]

(Original post by 99luft Balons)
This is not an Islam-bashing thread.

Have you read through it even?

I don't see how you can talk about culture without talking about religion. Religion is culture

[No Man]

(Original post by Made in the USA)
I don't see how you can talk about culture without talking about religion. Religion is culture

Religion is only part of culture, otherwise a lot of these native African Christians wouldn't believe in witchcraft.

You can use the same analogy with Islam. These crazy Islamic Afgan men are like those that believe in witchcraft, and the Islamic men in places like Qatar and the UAE that have more rational beliefs are like the Christians in the Western world.

The places that hold the crazy beliefs are the underdeveloped/uneducated countries that haven't stamped out the crazy parts of their cultures.

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by bkeevin)
Sorry to have to burst burst your bubble. Marital rape used to be rife in Britain and the law did nothing. It was only in 1991 that the marital rape exemption was abolished in the UK. Can you actually compare the level social conscience of present Afghanistan even with 18th century Britain? We only abolished such a barbaric law 21 years ago in Britain. Any society needs time to change their values.

This is a somewhat misleading portrayal of the state of UK law on the subject. For many years before the official removal of this exemption, the court got around it by simply substituting convictions for assault or indecent assault.

[JackG1]

(Original post by bkeevin)
You are correct indeed. Islam must be the culprit. We all know there have never been any non islamic country or culture where women were or are subjugated. In fact even here in the West we all know women have always been considered equal to men. They always had the right to vote we all know it is only in muslim countries they had to fight and many died for that right. Marital rape and forced marriage have never existed in the christian West ever!!!

Stop being naive.

Which country is well known for beheading homosexuals and stoning adulterous femals? The ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Iran.

Which country is well known for not letting women drive or work? Saudi Arabia, a predominantly Islamic state.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by 99luft Balons)
Abuse and Mistreatment of Women a/ka/a “We Treat Our Women Like Dogs” – Men in Afghanistan are notorious for abusing and mistreating women.

According to one study, more than 50% of Afghan women have experienced physical violence and 17% of have experienced rape and other forms of sexual violence.

The Taliban in particular target women including murdering female civilian school teachers, female aid workers, and all women in positions of power and authority.

While the Taliban was in power they refused to give basic human rights to women including prohibiting them from attaining an education or working. In addition, they required all women to completely cover themselves from head to foot. Why may you ask? Because the men of Afghanistan are brute animals and cannot control themselves so the women must pay by covering themselves up. Under Taliban rule women could not leave their homes without a male relative, could not speak in public and were prohibited from speaking to males who were not close relatives.
Another cultural aspect of Afghanistan is that young girls ages 13 and above are given away in the name of arranged marriages to men they may or may not know. They often encounter inhumane treatment at the hands of their husbands or the husbands’ family in the way of beatings and other harsh behavior. How bad is it you might ask? Well how bad would the treatment have to be to set yourself on fire (called self-immolation)? Yes, that is a common problem for the Afghan government – how do we keep our young married ladies from torching themselves because their husbands beat them and mistreat them so very badly.

According to the Canadian Foreign Affairs Department: “More Afghan women are choosing suicide to escape the violence and brutality of their daily lives.”

ere are a few of the headlines:

“Afghan Girls Burn Themselves to Escape Marriage” - 17 –year-old Shirin had been brought to the Herat Regional Hospital Burns Unit a few days before we met her...In the first seven months of this year, medical staff at the Herat’s burns unit – the only one of its kind in the entire country – said they have seen 51 cases of female self-immolation – only 13 have survived.

“According to NGOs, 90 Percent of Afghan Woman are Abused” - According to nongovernmental agencies, 90% of Afghan women are victims of domestic abuse
“Afghan Woman Ousted from Her Home By Husband Dies of Cold”
“Father Kills Daughter in Sar-i-Pul Province of Afghanistan” – A father beat his 19-year-old daughter who refused to marry a 12-year-old boy.

“The Tribulations of Child-bearing Children” – Rabia, 14, is expect her first child almost a year after getting married to Haji Oadullah, aged 49, his second wife. She is supposed to deliver in a few days, but this is her first visit to a health center. She is fortunate...Men often don’t allow their pregnant women to go to hospitals and doctors.

"Afghan woman to be freed from jail after agreeing to marry rapist" - An Afghan woman jailed for adultery after she was raped by a relative is set to be freed – but only after agreeing to marry the man who attacked her.Half the women in Afghan jails have been imprisoned for 'moral crimes'.


“Afghan Woman Among Worst Off in World” Afghan women are among the worst off in the world, violence against them is endemic and Afghanistan’s government fails to protect them from crimes such as rape and murder.

Reports of a new law limiting the personal rights of women, and forcing them have sex with their husbands have hit the Western media. Supposedly, President Karzai signed the bill into law to get certain influential Shiite leaders on his side for the elections. After an uproar and worldwide condemnation, the Ministry of Justice said they will review it to see if it violates Islamic law. Hopefully, the law gets scrapped, or Afghan women will not be able to use an excuse millions of women all over the world use: "Sorry, honey, not tonight, I have a headache".

All joking aside, this law is cruel and wrong as it strips women of their God given right to prevent the violation of their bodies. One has to really wonder, how in the world laws like these get even brought up. Why do Afghans have such a hatred of their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters? Is it Islam? Of course not, Afghan men have done a great job of perverting a beautiful religion and twisting sacred verses to fit their own personal agendas. It's actually the backward tribal culture that exists in Afghanistan, and while many other societies have gotten rid of their hatred for women, Afghans simply cannot shake it off. Today in Afghanistan, women are treated like objects, many are forced to marry men they do not want, and young girls are even sometimes sold off to settle gambling debts. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)did not stop the burying of girls so that 1400 plus years later, they can be sold off like cattle.

Don't the father's of these girls who are forced into marriage see that they are participating in the rape of their daughters? Since the girl was forced, the marriage is not valid, and the child, their grandchild is now born out of wedlock. Don’t they realize that their actions are producing in the end an illegitimate grandchild? Do these Afghan men not see the shame in that? Many Islamic scholars will also agree that a forced marriage is not a valid marriage and any child born out of that marriage is born out of wedlock.

What can Afghan women do? Burn their bras like the American women did? Well, in some parts of Afghanistan, women have been burning themselves. Extreme? Yes, but apparently, the message is still not getting through. The blame has to fall on the mothers of these men as well. The first teacher a baby boy has is his mother. Why aren't these mothers teaching their sons to respect women and treat them as equals? Perhaps they are too ignorant themselves to be able to teach them. Perhaps they too suffered the same fate and don’t know any other way. It’s a horrible cycle. Either way, something has to be done; Afghan women can no longer tolerate this from they own men. No foreign invading army has brought upon more misery and suffering to the Afghan woman than the Afghan man. This has to change.

The problem is culture where Muslims get brought up as though their cultural practices, etc is their faith as well when many things go against Islam.

What should be happening is that Muslims need to be educated better on their faith and rid themselves of their cultural practices and their greed.....and follow what Islam was in the first place...where everything worked properly, where the Muslims were equal, women had rights of education ,etc.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by JackG1)
Stop being naive.

Which country is well known for beheading homosexuals and stoning adulterous femals? The ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Iran.

Which country is well known for not letting women drive or work? Saudi Arabia, a predominantly Islamic state.

If these countries are so Islamic, then why do they ignore everything else in Islam......such as the right of a women to travel and work.

And also not establishing the Caliphate which Muslims should do, yet these states are happy to go along with what they want....in particular the house of saud who are far from being completely Islamic

[Chloe xxx]

(Original post by effofex)
Not necessarily. In some of the most technologically advanced/richest states on the planet (Qatar, UAE, Oman, Saudi) there is still alot of discrimination towards women.

What a surprise, all muslim majority states.

I dont know why we are still debating this, its fairly obvious to many people what the deep root cause of the misogyny and lack of female rights there is in these places.

[Chloe xxx]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
If these countries are so Islamic, then why do they ignore everything else in Islam......such as the right of a women to travel and work.

And also not establishing the Caliphate which Muslims should do, yet these states are happy to go along with what they want....in particular the house of saud who are far from being completely Islamic

Men have to give the woman the right to travel or work.

Many saudis have stated they dont want better rights for women as it could lead to western style openness.

I mean come on, they dont want to lose their control over women, do they?

[Chloe xxx]

(Original post by No Man)
Religion is only part of culture, otherwise a lot of these native African Christians wouldn't believe in witchcraft.

You can use the same analogy with Islam. These crazy Islamic Afgan men are like those that believe in witchcraft, and the Islamic men in places like Qatar and the UAE that have more rational beliefs are like the Christians in the Western world.

The places that hold the crazy beliefs are the underdeveloped/uneducated countries that haven't stamped out the crazy parts of their cultures.

Saudi Arabia has a pretty high level of literacy and is by no stretch of the imagination 'underdeveloped'....its problem is-

It is the Islamic Holy Home, home to the 2 holiest islamic cities, thus its law needs to show as such.

Quite amusing when posters try and deny Saudi Arabia is Islamic at all.

[Made in the USA]

(Original post by No Man)
Religion is only part of culture, otherwise a lot of these native African Christians wouldn't believe in witchcraft.

You can use the same analogy with Islam. These crazy Islamic Afgan men are like those that believe in witchcraft, and the Islamic men in places like Qatar and the UAE that have more rational beliefs are like the Christians in the Western world.

The places that hold the crazy beliefs are the underdeveloped/uneducated countries that haven't stamped out the crazy parts of their cultures.

I'm not saying religion is everything but to discuss afghan culture and refuse to discuss religion is like saying you are going to have a conversation about tablets but no one is allowed to discuss the iPad.

[izzaha]

The treatment of women in Afghanistan has nothing to do Islam. Islam, just like in Christianity, feels that women are the ones that have the children and raise them up. The Prophet Muhammad lectured all Muslims to respect their women after all according to him "Paradise lies in the feet of the mother".

Women can work, study, own property, have a business etc, this is perfectly fine in Islam. The first wife of the Prophet Muhammad was Khadijah who employed him, she proposed to him and he loved her more than anyone else. She is a clear example that women can dominate.

The attitudes of Afghan men towards women disgusts me, it is their backward way of thinking and culture that is a problem not Islam.

Good day to you.

[No Man]

(Original post by Chloe xxx)
Saudi Arabia has a pretty high level of literacy and is by no stretch of the imagination 'underdeveloped'....its problem is-

It is the Islamic Holy Home, home to the 2 holiest islamic cities, thus its law needs to show as such.

Quite amusing when posters try and deny Saudi Arabia is Islamic at all.

I didn't say anything about Saudi Arabia.

[JackG1]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
If these countries are so Islamic, then why do they ignore everything else in Islam......such as the right of a women to travel and work.

And also not establishing the Caliphate which Muslims should do, yet these states are happy to go along with what they want....in particular the house of saud who are far from being completely Islamic

Listen, I don't really care what is said in the Quran, just how that religion is being implemented today as a tool of oppression. Every religion picks and chooses from their holy books what it wants to use. In the Old Testament, Christians are told to kill homosexuals - thankfully, most Christian and predominantly Christian states have moved with the times.

[de_monies]

(Original post by Chloe xxx)

Quite amusing when posters try and deny Saudi Arabia is Islamic at all.

Saudi Arabia is not Islamic. It's a hypocrisy of a nation, is what it is

[Chloe xxx]

(Original post by JackG1)
Listen, I don't really care what is said in the Quran, just how that religion is being implemented today as a tool of oppression. Every religion picks and chooses from their holy books what it wants to use. In the Old Testament, Christians are told to kill homosexuals - thankfully, most Christian and predominantly Christian states have moved with the times.

Exactly. Doesnt mean there arnt still some Christians, like the Phelps family, that use their version of religion to dictate and oppress others.

Its weird how those who defend Islam will never ever admit that the religion is probably the cause of backward beliefs in many of its followers, as it is with Christianity and the Phelps family, and others who would like to kill gays or oppress certain people in the name of God.

[Chloe xxx]

(Original post by No Man)
I didn't say anything about Saudi Arabia.

You said: The places that hold the crazy beliefs are the underdeveloped/uneducated countries that haven't stamped out the crazy parts of their cultures.

Saudi Arabia holds these crazy beliefs and is far from underdeveloped or uneducated.

It is like that because they have an Islamic dictatorship in practice.

[effofex]

(Original post by Chloe xxx)
What a surprise, all muslim majority states.

I dont know why we are still debating this, its fairly obvious to many people what the deep root cause of the misogyny and lack of female rights there is in these places.

Surely Wahhabism, rather than 'Islam'?

You don't see the same social structure in Sufi-dominated regions of Pakistan.

[No Man]

(Original post by Chloe xxx)
You said: The places that hold the crazy beliefs are the underdeveloped/uneducated countries that haven't stamped out the crazy parts of their cultures.

Saudi Arabia holds these crazy beliefs and is far from underdeveloped or uneducated.

It is like that because they have an Islamic dictatorship in practice.

Saudi Arabia is in a league of its own like the Vatican is.