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B421 - Provision of Defribrillators Bill

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    (Original post by Alofleicester)
    Well then call the police and let them charge me with whatever they see fit.
    I see what you did there :sexface:
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    Off topic (as in not about bad jokes :p:) but could I just ask why 3.1 extends only too England? Who funds defibrillators in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?
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    (Original post by ForensicShoe)
    I see what you did there :sexface:
    I regret nothing, all of these puns are current and so perfectly acceptable.
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    I find your capacity to make witty puns enlightening. It has been enough Faraday, though.
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    (Original post by tufc)
    Only concern is training to use them - obviously all schools have trained first-aiders, but is the use of defibrillators covered by basic first-aid courses? Because they're likely to make things even worse if used incorrectly.
    Automated External Defibrillators (the type that are available publically) analyse the heart rhythm and will only deliver a shock if the victim is in ventricular fibrillation - they cannot be used inappropriately. Furthermore, they are extremely easy to use because they guide the operator through the correct procedure and have diagrams demonstrating the positioning of the pads. As such, the UK Resuscitation Council Guidelines state "An AED can be used safely and effectively without previous training. Therefore, the use of an AED should not be restricted to trained rescuers."
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    It's clear that Labour are well meaning with this bill.

    However my questions are

    Shouldn't other educational establishm

    How are we going to ensure essential and necessary training is provided to first aiders?
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    A good bill on the whole. The only issues that need resolving are the provision of training and the cost of implementation.
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    Aye to this. I have heard that early use can save lives and so, barring the training issue, it's an aye from me.
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    (Original post by Matthew_Lowson)
    How are we going to ensure essential and necessary training is provided to first aiders?
    (Original post by Birchington)
    The only issues that need resolving are the provision of training
    (Original post by toronto353)
    barring the training issue, it's an aye from me.
    Probably worthwhile having a quick read of my previous post (#45)
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    (Original post by TopHat)
    See the page before, when I replied to MacGuishy.
    Apologies, I missed this within the midst of the puns. Thank you for that.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    And as for the cost to small businesses, if the government subsidised defibrilators that could be considerably lessened - also, small ones may not necessarily need to buy them!
    :headfire:

    Governments subsidising does not remove the cost, it merely shifts it from business owners to taxpayers, this is not an improvement, merely a shuffle.
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    (Original post by jesusandtequila)
    :headfire:

    Governments subsidising does not remove the cost, it merely shifts it from business owners to taxpayers, this is not an improvement, merely a shuffle.
    Your point? The costs incurred by business would be less, as the burden would be diluted - the public should pay for regulations that fall under our collective interests. Who knows when one of us will be in the cinema and suddenly keel over.
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    F*** it. While we're at it why dont we get them in in OLd People's Home's as well :P
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    Good bill. Aye.
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    (Original post by Chwirkytheappleboy)
    Automated External Defibrillators (the type that are available publically) analyse the heart rhythm and will only deliver a shock if the victim is in ventricular fibrillation - they cannot be used inappropriately. Furthermore, they are extremely easy to use because they guide the operator through the correct procedure and have diagrams demonstrating the positioning of the pads. As such, the UK Resuscitation Council Guidelines state "An AED can be used safely and effectively without previous training. Therefore, the use of an AED should not be restricted to trained rescuers."
    Very good post! Repped, and worth reading.

    (Original post by Matthew_Lowson)
    It's clear that Labour are well meaning with this bill.

    However my questions are

    Shouldn't other educational establishm

    How are we going to ensure essential and necessary training is provided to first aiders?
    Firstly, as noted many times, all schools are required by law to have at least one medical staff in their employ, and we changed the accreditation process in 2.(1), so that means that medical staff member will know how to use them. Secondly, automated defibrillators, as noted above, can't really be used incorrectly. Thirdly, most first aid is more or less fully provided by the voluntary sector anyway. (I may be wrong on this, but I don't even think it is compulsory for schools to teach first aid?)

    Your other question appears to have been cut off.

    (Original post by Birchington)
    A good bill on the whole. The only issues that need resolving are the provision of training and the cost of implementation.
    As in my answer to Lowson, you can see provision of training is essentially covered. There is also a full costing in the notes. It's not a particularly expensive matter, and the cost is sunk - it is a pretty one-off payment, with a very small maintenance fee each year following.
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    Surely it would be better to carry out a widespread programme of CPR training. We have an excellent ambulance service in this country who carry defibrillators as standard, they have a target response time of 8 minutes, so should be able to administer defibrillation where necessary within 10 minutes. Would the time spent hunting down the defibrillator and the person trained to use it not be better spent administering CPR while waiting for an ambulance?

    There is also the problem that people may have a very weak heartbeat that is hard to detect and the use of defibrillation could actually have the opposite effect of that desired, by actually shocking the heart out of rhythm. The problem is there is no way to quantify how many people are killed by the unnecessary use of defibrillation as any post mortem will merely show the cause of death as a cardiac arrest, but not whether the defibrillation was the cause of the cardiac arrest.

    In the right hands defibrillation saves lives, in the wrong hands it can actually cost lives, and I fear that the more widespread its use becomes the more it will be used by those without the proper skills. You might be able to learn how to use a defibrillator on a 1 day training course, but learning when to use it is just as important, and that only comes with years of experience.
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    (Original post by TopHat)
    - My question is shouldn't all educational establishments have these on standby. Universities and colleges for example.
    I'm not sure if I agree that it's not 'difficult' to administrate defibrillation. - Intensive training must be given to those using it on how to use it and when to use it.
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    My understanding of SADS is that CPR is not an effective response. I'd also refer both gentlemen to Chwirkytheappleboy's post. Sixth form colleges are included under "schools", by the Department of Education's definitions. We will extend the bill to universities if enough people are interested.
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    (Original post by Chwirkytheappleboy)
    Probably worthwhile having a quick read of my previous post (#45)
    However, it will make people more confident in using them if we train them. People may hesitate if they don't feel confident enough so training is about building confidence.
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    Aye, good bill.
Updated: April 11, 2012
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