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I stopped reading after seeing how you compared gays to pedofiles as im sure many people did, it is wrong for you to do so as pedofiles are hurting and violating children! Whereas gay people are loving other likeminded adults who can make up their own minds. I think you need to address your limited perspective and question why you have it in the first place, perhaps clean out your closet :wink:
Reply 221
Are people also implying that if a child was not to be hurt or damaged through paedophilia it would be acceptable? This question demonstrates the flawed logic of that particular argument.
Original post by konvictz0007
Are people also implying that if a child was not to be hurt or damaged through paedophilia it would be acceptable? This question demonstrates the flawed logic of that particular argument.


A child, even if not necessarily harmed still cannot consent. They do not have the mental capacity to do so.
Reply 223
Original post by konvictz0007
Are people also implying that if a child was not to be hurt or damaged through paedophilia it would be acceptable? This question demonstrates the flawed logic of that particular argument.


It doesn't demonstrate the flawed logic of the argument. An adult choosing to engage in sexual relations with a child would be acceptable if it was reasonable to suppose that the child will not be harmed. But, since the vast majority of children who have been molested ARE harmed in the process, this is not a reasonable supposition. On the other hand adults are only very rarely harmed by consensual same-sex activities, and consequently it is reasonable for a person to presume that engaging in these activities will not be harmful. You're working on the assumption that engaging in sexual relations with a child is INHERENTLY wrong; an incorrect assumption - child molestation is wrong in virtue of its harmful consequences, which homosexual behaviours lack.
Reply 224
I'm actually shocked that people still hold such 12th century views like the OP does, but i'm beginning to expect it here on the student room :frown:
Original post by konvictz0007
I certainly do not agree with incest, I personally feel that it is disgusting. Of course I will personally say it is not natural, but in the current day and age, we cannot object to what to consenting adults do behind closed doors as long as it is not harming anyone, be it homosexuality or incest.

Which lead me to the question why would someone accept homosexuality and not incest, you can say in both cases two people love each other, what has it got to do with you?


Theoretically incest can be justified on these grounds, although the repercussions of procreating can justify its prohibition (birth deformities). As for homosexuality being unnatural, yes it is unnatural from the perspective of sex being designed for procreation. But unnatural doesn't not equate to bad. There are many natural instincts, such as selfishness, competitiveness, jealousy, infidelity, and bigotry, but these are obviously not good things. What is natural has nothing to do with morality.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by anon1212
As for homosexuality being unnatural, yes it is unnatural from the perspective of sex being designed for procreation. But unnatural doesn't not equate to bad.


OK so 1. Anything that happens in nature is by definition natural. Humans are part of nature, and 2. Most apes have sex for purposes other than reproduction.
Reply 227
Original post by konvictz0007
A lot of people are saying that paedophilia and homosexuality cannot be compared and the comparison is not relevant. You cannot just say it is not relevant without any sort of justification. I am saying it is relevant and will pursue to argue the case. Wikipedia also agrees with the relevancy with a cited source, to quote directly from Wikipedia:


The comparison is relevant however the main difference between homosexuality, heterosexuality and paedophilia is that homosexuals and heterosexuals are attracted to those who are of age for sex and so no one is harmed in the process. Paedophilia harms children because a child does not have the maturity to fully understand what they may or may not be consenting to. Also, their bodies may not yet be ready to have sex and so there is a very high chance of physical and/or mental damage.

Further to this my point is society in general is vastly negative towards paedophiles. If a paedophile is known to the authorities they are punished, criminalised and jailed. How is this fair if we are saying both circumstances are through no choice of their own? Nature has come up quiet frequently. Some users are saying homosexuality is natural and paedophilia is not - where is the evidence I ask to accept one and reject the other of being natural?


Paedophilia is natural. For one thing it's seen in other species too. Those arguing it is not natural are just made uncomfortable by the idea and so are labelling it as unatural. However again while paedophilia almost always harms others, homosexuality and equally heterosexuality do not.

People are discussing incest as being not natural. A common consensus for the acceptance of the homosexual community is the argument where two practising consensual adults are free to do what they desire as long it is not harming anyone else. One (or two) can maintain an incestuous sexual relationship in this manner as it can be said they are not harming anyone. Many users have rejected the idea of incest on the basis that children produced from an incestuous couple will be disadvantaged from a weaker gene pool, but why are users making the assumption that all incestuous relationships will directly lead to a child I ask? Homosexuality and incest can be practised without procreation so I ask again, why is the idea of incest constantly rejected by society?


Incest is not favoured in nature because of the way genetics work. That doesn't mean to say it isn't natural however. Like paedophilia, homosexuality, heterosexuality etc it is also seen in other species for example. People are made uncomfortable by incest because it is very taboo. It makes sense not to encourage it as over generations a lot of genetic disorders can arise from a population which has a high level of incest and that's never a good thing, but I don't think anyone could condemn anyone in an incestuous relationship as long as they truly weren't harming anyone else, and certainly if they had chosen not to have children together!

Many people have tackled my negative gene issue about human continuity by stating homosexuals will promote a negative population growth and will help issues of over crowding. I cannot express in words how offended I am by that statement. So because we want to control the population does that mean we should abandon research and development in preventing cancer and other forms of life threatening illnesses? By that logic we can say we should have more illegal wars as it will bring down the mortality levels and help control population?


You've thrown your toys out the pram here. You cannot equate potentially prevented deaths to potentially unborn children of homosexual persons, and it's ludicrous to equate it to the vast number of deaths brought about by war. Force a homosexual into a heterosexual relationship and they won't be any more likely to want children. If anything they'll be put off because they won't be in a loving relationship; their child is less likely to be brought up in a loving environment.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 228
Original post by Miracle Day
Because paedophillia damages people


Evidence?
Reply 229
Original post by SamF1992
paedophilia involves forced sexual activity without consent Paedophilia is a sexual orientation, how exactly does a state of mind "involve forced sexual activity without consent"? :confused:
Reply 230
Original post by olucas
but any relationship between consensual adults is perfectly acceptable


So you are okay with incest?
Original post by Stefan1991
Paedophilia is a sexual orientation, how exactly does a state of mind "involve forced sexual activity without consent"? :confused:


You still cannot claim that it is a sexual orientation. It cannot be a sexual orientation simply by the definition of what a sexual orientation is. :colonhash:
Original post by konvictz0007
Firstly these are my views. I have the right and I am entitled to have my views regarding this subject especially as it is always under constant mass scrutiny. Just because you do not agree with me does not mean my rights should be compromised. It is my intention to promote positive discussion of the topic and my points.


It is indeed always under constant mass scrutiny, although in my opinion it shouldn't be, since someone's sexuality is nobody's business bar that person and their sexual partner(s). However, you are also entitled to your opinion. Positive discussion is a good thing.

Original post by konvictz0007
Some argue homosexuality is not a choice, one does not choose their sexual orientation. I disagree with that statement because this can also apply to other situations. A lot of people including some scientific researchers also say paedophilia is not chosen by an individual. My issue with this is if society is to accept homosexuals on the basis that they have no choice, then why punish and criminalise paedophiles as they also have no choice?


As a gay man I can tell you that I did not choose to be homosexual, in the same manner that you did not wake up one morning and consciously decide to be straight. You are attracted to women because that is the way your brain is wired, and this same rule applies to me. It was not a choice. I don't know if you think I'm lying or for some reason would choose to be gay and face unnecessary hassle, but no... I did not choose my sexuality.

Paedophilia is a different issue altogether since a child is not of sufficient emotional maturity to be able to consent to sexual activity or intercourse. Young children are extremely impressionable and vulnerable, making the act of paedophilia legally rape. I'm sure you agree that rape is abhorrent and should be approached as a crime. However, two perfectly consenting adults of the same gender making love is not a crime. If you think it is, I would like you to explain why.

Original post by konvictz0007
Humans are limited in their choice, we 'cant' decide what we want. We are designed in a way, this information is stored in our DNA. Society can also have a strong say. Two siblings, a brother and a sister, cannot have a sexual relationship because it goes against etiquette of society and science. He cannot just say 'oh I love my sister, its not affecting you so whats your problem if i go out with her'. I therefore believe choice alone is not justification for homosexuality.


Some people can and do say "oh I love my sister", and incest between siblings does exist. This is a contentious issue because of the issue of inbreeding and the fact that were two siblings to produce a child, said innocent child would be at risk of being disabled. This situation would involve harm being caused to an innocent party (i.e. the baby), making it objectionable. However, the point remains that gay sex does not harm anybody. This is why incest and homosexuality are two completely separate issues. And for the record, as long as two siblings are of a similar age and take measures to ensure that pregnancy does not occur, I see no problem with that kind of relationship either. But that's just my opinion.

Original post by konvictz0007
Furthermore if we are to accept the argument 'gays are born gay' we must investigate that claim and examine what it means for humanity. Under the assumption that the argument that they are born gay holds, then it is something which is affecting their ability to reproduce (as they are not attracted to the opposite sex). Then, it is in my belief that by definition of continuity of the human race we must find a way to prevent it as it is, technically speaking, a negative genetic mutation and must be addressed by doctors and medical researchers to preserve continuity.


Oh, please. This planet is severely overpopulated... we are not remotely in any danger of extinction because of homosexuality. Also, have you even considered the ratio of homosexual to heterosexual people? Not everyone is turning gay. There will always be an overwhelming majority of straight people to populate the planet. And if you are willing to "address" every perceived negative aspect in people then you are perhaps toeing the line of eugenics. What about straight people who are unable to reproduce for whatever reason? Should they be "addressed"?

Original post by konvictz0007
These are some subjects which I feel strongly about. I am willing to debate issues regarding psychology, health and hygiene, communication, social impacts etc.

This topic is constant in media, social and professional circles. There will always be support for and against, I am simply against due to some points I outlined above. I should not be down voted because of my views (there are plenty of groups which are allowed to have a say no matter how 'wrong' some people think they are such as BNP EDL Extremist Muslims), rather I would like TSR to assess my points. This issue must be discussed if were are to find an eventual solution. I welcome feedback and further discussion.


Again, it should not even be an issue in society. Although, sadly it is. And yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But in the same fashion, people are also perfectly entitled to give your post negative votes to show their disagreement with your disagreement with homosexuality... something I believe to be arcane and pointless. You are not going to find an "eventual solution" to homosexuality. Some people are always going to be gay. Society is beginning to accept this now and homosexuals are gaining equal rights at a quickening pace.

Original post by konvictz0007
A lot of people are saying that paedophilia and homosexuality cannot be compared and the comparison is not relevant. You cannot just say it is not relevant without any sort of justification. I am saying it is relevant and will pursue to argue the case. Wikipedia also agrees with the relevancy with a cited source, to quote directly from Wikipedia:

Further to this my point is society in general is vastly negative towards paedophiles. If a paedophile is known to the authorities they are punished, criminalised and jailed. How is this fair if we are saying both circumstances are through no choice of their own? Nature has come up quiet frequently. Some users are saying homosexuality is natural and paedophilia is not - where is the evidence I ask to accept one and reject the other of being natural?


My justification for the two being incomparable is that one scenario involves two consenting adults, while the other involves the statutory rape of a young child by an adult. It cannot be explained in simpler terms than that. You should also refrain from using Wikipedia as a "credible source".

Original post by konvictz0007
People are discussing incest as being not natural. A common consensus for the acceptance of the homosexual community is the argument where two practising consensual adults are free to do what they desire as long it is not harming anyone else. One (or two) can maintain an incestuous sexual relationship in this manner as it can be said they are not harming anyone. Many users have rejected the idea of incest on the basis that children produced from an incestuous couple will be disadvantaged from a weaker gene pool, but why are users making the assumption that all incestuous relationships will directly lead to a child I ask? Homosexuality and incest can be practised without procreation so I ask again, why is the idea of incest constantly rejected by society?


The definition of different things as "natural" is really an idiotic concept either way. Human beings are essentially animals, so anything we do is arguably natural. Also, who cares whether something is or is not natural? You are on a computer at the moment, debating with people from miles around the globe, from the comfort of your own home by use of electronic signals. That is not natural. Man flying by use of an aeroplane is not natural. Cars are not natural. But nobody condemns them and points out their unnatural essence as being a bad thing. As I said above, I see no problem with incest between siblings so long as they use protection and one is not significantly younger than the other.

Original post by konvictz0007
Many people have tackled my negative gene issue about human continuity by stating homosexuals will promote a negative population growth and will help issues of over crowding. I cannot express in words how offended I am by that statement. So because we want to control the population does that mean we should abandon research and development in preventing cancer and other forms of life threatening illnesses? By that logic we can say we should have more illegal wars as it will bring down the mortality levels and help control population?


Innocent civilians being blown up during brutal warfare, and people dying in agony before old age from terrible diseases, are again not anything like sex between two consenting adults. You are now officially clutching at straws.

xx
Anyone else think this post is one long justification by the OP for shagging kids and his sister?
Reply 234
Original post by Stefan1991
So you are okay with incest?


Incest between two consenting adults causes no harm to anyone. Looking past society's OTT fear of it, the only real problem with it is that children born from immediate family members have reduced genetic variation and if this is widespread in a population (whether the size of a town or a whole country) or continues over a few to several generations genetic diseases will appear that could have otherwise been prevented.

So really, as long as incestuous couples are consenting and not having children with each other (not including adoption or children they've had with non-family members) there's no good reason to have a problem with incest.

Original post by WeekendOffender

Some people can and do say "oh I love my sister", and incest between siblings does exist. This is a contentious issue because of the issue of inbreeding and the fact that were two siblings to produce a child, said innocent child would be at risk of being disabled. This situation would involve harm being caused to an innocent party (i.e. the baby), making it objectionable. However, the point remains that gay sex does not harm anybody. This is why incest and homosexuality are two completely separate issues. And for the record, as long as two siblings are of a similar age and take measures to ensure that pregnancy does not occur, I see no problem with that kind of relationship either. But that's just my opinion.


Great post, but I wanted to highlight a common mistake that you've strayed onto: portraying the effects of incest on a very small scale. The problem with incest is not that if a child is born of a brother and sister today that it may be disabled - that frequently happens anyway whether parents are incestuous or not. The problem is that on a wider scale and/or over a few to several generations of inbreeding genetic diseases will inevitably arise because the genetic variation in the population is falling. This is why children born from incest should be avoided and not encouraged. (Incest in itself however is quite separate, of course).

For an example of the effects of inbreeding on a population look up studies that have taken place in Finland. :smile:
Reply 235
Original post by limetang
Interesting. But those findings say absolutely nothing about the idea that homosexuality is something you were born with.


so you theorise that brain structure is changed by environmental factors? interesting, maybe its one of those mystery. Will we ever know? do we actually care.

On a side note.

Maybe, just putting it out there, people should be judged on PERSONALITY and not SEXUALITY.

Stop buying into categorisation, these tick boxes do nothing for the bigger picture.

Peace
x
Original post by Shabalala

Essentially Homosexuality, Paedophila, Beastiality etc... are the same thing sexual preference disorders or a form of mental illneses if you like that cannot be changed at least not with our current technology the difference between Homosexuality and the other two is that Homosexuality isn't harming others and if we can't change who they are then there is no point denying them the right to have a homosexual relationship it's just going to make them unhappy. Paedophila I think isn't necesarily all there own fault but if they act on it they are effectivley raping someone I am attracted to girls that have knocked me back but it doesn''t mean that I will just rape them anyway because i'm stronger than them. Seeing as Paedophila hasn't got a cure I think there should be forced chemical castration for offenders which will cut off all sexual urges completley if they re offend then Physical Castration should happen that will remove any chance of re offending.

I bet there are Paedophiles out there who haven't acted on their urges but are scared to come out and ask for help to control their urges I think they should be encouraged to come out and shouldn't be demonized because they have a mental illness (as long as they haven't acted on those urges) and recieve phyciatric help and chemical castration if they think they can't control their urges.


Homosexuality is a mental illness? Utter tosh. And tell me you did not just compare homosexuality to Paedophilia and Beastiality.
Reply 237
Original post by Stefan1991
Paedophilia is a sexual orientation, how exactly does a state of mind "involve forced sexual activity without consent"? :confused:


Paedophilia is not a sexual orientation. A sexual orientation relates to the sex you are attracted to, or in the case of asexuality, the fact that you aren't:
Heterosexuality = attracted to members of the opposite sex
Homosexuality = attracted to members of the same sex
Bisexuality = attracted to members of both sexes, sometimes equal ratio, sometimes leaning more towards one sex than the other
Asexuality = not attracted to either sex

These are sexual orientations because they are based upon the sex you are attracted to, i.e. male or female. However, child is not a sex, thus paedophilia cannot be described as a sexual orientation. It can be described as a sexual attraction, because that is what it is, but not as a sexual orientation, because it isn't.
Original post by SpongebobSquarepan
I like turtles.


That just made my day :biggrin:
Original post by Stefan1991
Evidence?


Basic Psychology? Studies have shown how harmful adult-child sexual relations can be. :s-smilie:

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