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My Personal Views On Homosexuality

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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    Lol no. Just because they don't know the specific cause doesn't mean that it is a choice. They have done many studies and conclusively shown it isn't a choice. Even if it were caused by social/environmental factors that wouldn't make it a choice. These things affect people on a subconscious level and a person has no say in it they do not get to 'choose' their sexual orientation.
    No I am sorry, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest it is not a choice. Please try again, and please cite some sources. Of course I am not suggesting it is a choice or it is not which is why I have done the rational thing and have examined both cases.

    You are saying you do not know nor can explain the cause of homosexuality but you think you can conclusively say it is not choice?
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    So you are okay with incest?
    em, when you way up the pros and cons, yea I guess I am. As a civilisation we don't have the right to not only judge, but to label relationships we aren't part of. Just because we deem a modern hetrosexual relationship to be a man and a women having sex and eating in restaurants and going for walks, doesn't mean that's what all relationships consist of. Our society is, and should always be, entirely open to the individual and whatever they look for in life.
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    No I am sorry, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest it is not a choice. Please try again, and please cite some sources. Of course I am not suggesting it is a choice or it is not which is why I have done the rational thing and have examined both cases.

    You are saying you do not know nor can explain the cause of homosexuality but you think you can conclusively say it is not choice?
    Yes there is. The APA acknowledges that one does not choose their sexual orientation. Why? Because they have done the research. Research shows that sexual orientation is observable and done developing at around age 6. Even considering social factors it has been concluded that there is no choosing.

    http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    Yes there is. The APA acknowledges that one does not choose their sexual orientation. Why? Because they have done the research. Research shows that sexual orientation is observable and done developing at around age 6. Even considering social factors it has been concluded that there is no choosing.

    http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
    Your link highlights a case for the notion that homosexuality is not a choice. I can just as easily produce a link with research showing it is a choice.

    So I ask again, how is this conclusive?
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    Your link highlights a case for the notion that homosexuality is not a choice. I can just as easily produce a link with research showing it is a choice.

    So I ask again, how is this conclusive?
    Show me a link from a credible source that homosexuality is a choice. The APA's finding are scientifically backed by tons of research thereby making their position reasonable and can be considered fact as there is no counter evidence.
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    Yes there is. The APA acknowledges that one does not choose their sexual orientation. Why? Because they have done the research. Research shows that sexual orientation is observable and done developing at around age 6. Even considering social factors it has been concluded that there is no choosing *.

    http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
    * in most cases

    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    Your link highlights a case for the notion that homosexuality is not a choice. I can just as easily produce a link with research showing it is a choice.

    So I ask again, how is this conclusive?
    It isn't conclusive. But neither can you say it is a choice - the real answer is that it's complicated and that any wild assertions either way have no completely solid basis to go on (saying it is 100% a choice is particularly idiotic though).

    If you're genuinely interested in learning about this, you might find this discussion on reddit interesting - http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/c...lity/?sort=top

    Specifically:
    The current consensus is that on a biological level homosexuality is like having the genes for height, having requirements in the environment for the gene to be expressed (nutrition etc. in the case of height).
    You can be biologically susceptible to being homosexual in the same way you can be susceptible to being tall, it may not necessarily manifest itself, though the environmental cues for it's manifestation are unknown.
    There's definitely something more complicated happening than a specific gene being active in homosexual individuals.
    There are many theories on why someone develops a homosexual orientation. Popular theories include non-gender conforming activities during childhood, societal and familial pressures, and fraternal birth order.
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    Your link highlights a case for the notion that homosexuality is not a choice. I can just as easily produce a link with research showing it is a choice.

    So I ask again, how is this conclusive?
    That's from the APA - the authority on psychology.

    That's the most credible source anywhere. Thereby, any other supposed source you produce is not sufficient.
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    You say homosexuality is not a choice but you have not provided any evidence, in fact there does not exist any conclusive evidence to support that claim. Quote from Wikipedia:



    Just because you write it in italics does not mean anything. So we cannot establish conclusively weather it is choice or not but what we can do is examine the consequences of either case and I have done that in my principle post.

    You argue why would one chose homosexuality if it has negative consequences? That question can be asked in any situation, e.g. Why would a paedophile chose to be attracted to children and download illegal images when he knows he may face prison? Why would someone smoke when they know it can eventually kill them?
    (1) You just tried to argue that because we don't know with 100% certainty the cause of homosexuality, that it could be a choice. Do you not understand logic?

    (2) No one said a pedophile chooses to be attracted to children. People almost never consciously choose what they are attracted to. Attraction is mostly on a sub-conscious level.

    (3) If it is a choice that would mean that:
    (a) You woke up one day and decided 'From here on out, I'm going to be heterosexual'
    (b) You can decide that, tomorrow, you're homosexual.

    P.S. I'd love for you to attempt (b), because I can guarantee it isn't possible.
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    No I am sorry, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest it is not a choice. Please try again, and please cite some sources. Of course I am not suggesting it is a choice or it is not which is why I have done the rational thing and have examined both cases.

    You are saying you do not know nor can explain the cause of homosexuality but you think you can conclusively say it is not choice?
    So, heterosexuality is a choice too following your logic - can you personally really stand behind that statement?
    And what is the cause of heterosexuality then? The constant display of it in our society? The "easier" choice?
    Admittedly, nobody will be able to tell you what the root of sexuality is as it is highly complex, but it may be different for everyone. There's a interesting work on sexual fluidity by Lisa Diamond if you're really interested.
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    I think you fogot beastiality, necrophilia etc.

    I love a "progressive society".
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    (1) You just tried to argue that because we don't know with 100% certainty the cause of homosexuality, that it could be a choice. Do you not understand logic?

    (2) No one said a pedophile chooses to be attracted to children. People almost never consciously choose what they are attracted to. Attraction is mostly on a sub-conscious level.
    No I argued we cannot conclusively establish weather it is a choice or not and the previous poster agrees with this. Since you believe homosexuality is strictly not a choice I can provide a counter example. I am currently heterosexual but I can at this very moment choose to be homosexual such that I am only sexually attracted to other males. Hence the reason you see many people 'changing' their sexual orientation, some go from bisexual to homosexual.
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    No I argued we cannot conclusively establish weather it is a choice or not and the previous poster agrees with this. Since you believe homosexuality is strictly not a choice I can provide a counter example. I am currently heterosexual but I can at this very moment choose to be homosexual such that I am only sexually attracted to other males. Hence the reason you see many people 'changing' their sexual orientation, some go from bisexual to homosexual.
    Can you really? You can make yourself exclusively attractive to males? Somehow I don't believe you. :rolleyes: The APA has also stated that one cannot change their sexual orientation. Please do your research.
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    No I argued we cannot conclusively establish weather it is a choice or not and the previous poster agrees with this. Since you believe homosexuality is strictly not a choice I can provide a counter example. I am currently heterosexual but I can at this very moment choose to be homosexual such that I am only sexually attracted to other males. Hence the reason you see many people 'changing' their sexual orientation, some go from bisexual to homosexual.
    Except that's false. :rolleyes:

    As was stated, the APA has stated it's not a choice - and considering they're actually psychologists who study this subject, I bet they know way more than you do

    I also in no way believe that you can choose to be attracted to the same sex, just like I cannot choose to be attracted to the opposite sex.
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    (Original post by konvictz0007)
    No I argued we cannot conclusively establish weather it is a choice or not and the previous poster agrees with this. Since you believe homosexuality is strictly not a choice I can provide a counter example. I am currently heterosexual but I can at this very moment choose to be homosexual such that I am only sexually attracted to other males. Hence the reason you see many people 'changing' their sexual orientation, some go from bisexual to homosexual.
    You almost got me to laugh at this. You are presenting a hypothetical anecdote as some kind of 'proof'? I mean, you couldn't even find a real story to tell here?

    Man, this is gold. Hypothetical anecdotes - a new low in logical reasoning.

    Your hypothetical anecdote (*snicker*) states that there exists one person for whom homosexuality is a choice.
    Fine. There probably does exist some person somewhere with a completely malleable sexuality. This does not change that it is accepted that the majority of people have no conscious choice over their sexuality.

    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    The APA has also stated that one cannot change their sexual orientation. Please do your research.
    No they did not. Please be more careful with reading your sources, your universal quantifiers are what is giving 'konvictz0007' a false sense of 'scoring some points'. If he actually had a real counter example (as opposed to the pathetic facsimile presented) he would have successfully negated your point. As it is, his argument has no bearing on the actual quote from the linked site:

    "Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

    Edit:
    (Original post by NYU2012)
    As was stated, the APA has stated it's not a choice
    My response to RandZul also applies to you.
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    Can you really? You can make yourself exclusively attractive to males? Somehow I don't believe you. :rolleyes: The APA has also stated that one cannot change their sexual orientation. Please do your research.
    I don't agree with the OP and certainly do not want to nor believe that he could put a switch on his orientation, but I do think that sometimes you can change your sexual orientation in the sense that you fall in love with a person that might just be male/female. Maybe I'm expressing myself poorly, but we are so quick to label sexual orientation. I'm much more comfortable with the idea of sexual fluidity, but then I can see how others wouldn't. I think the Kinsey scale kind of covers that though.
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    (Original post by Chrosson)
    My response to RandZul also applies to you.
    We are well aware of what the APA states. The APA is conservative in its statements however, no research has ever found that sexual orientation is a choice.

    You'll also note that in a number of places wherein the APA discusses homosexuality, the word 'choice' is never mentioned.

    As such, the APA has stated that most people little to no choice in their sexual orientation - in fact, it could be taken to be that no people experience choice in their sexual orientation; as 'most' can apply to 'all' and 'little to no' can mean 'none' - a vacuously true type of statement.
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    To those who are saying it is a choice - when exactly did you choose to be straight?
    Point proven.
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    (Original post by perlsh)
    I don't agree with the OP and certainly do not want to nor believe that he could put a switch on his orientation, but I do think that sometimes you can change your sexual orientation in the sense that you fall in love with a person that might just be male/female. Maybe I'm expressing myself poorly, but we are so quick to label sexual orientation. I'm much more comfortable with the idea of sexual fluidity, but then I can see how others wouldn't. I think the Kinsey scale kind of covers that though.
    That's not an accurate statement.

    (1) The Kinsey scale does not indicate that one has a 'choice' in their sexual orientation.

    (2) Nor does the Kinsey scale state that one can 'change' their sexual orientation.

    Rather, the Kinsey scale says that people do not have to be a binary sexuality (i.e. purely homosexual or purely heterosexual) - people can be mostly homosexual with some heterosexual tendencies and vice versa. However, these people do not change their sexual orientation, nor do they have a choice.
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    if your saying homosexuality is a choice... did you sit down one day and choose to be straight?

    Its ridiculous as a grown bisexual i dont sit there and decide one day im going to like men and the next women, if i find someone i like i like them it doesn't matter on the gender.
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    (Original post by Chrosson)
    No they did not. Please be more careful with reading your sources, your universal quantifiers are what is giving 'konvictz0007' a false sense of 'scoring some points'. If he actually had a real counter example (as opposed to the pathetic facsimile presented) he would have successfully negated your point. As it is, his argument has no bearing on the actual quote from the linked site:

    "Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."
    The problem is that there is no counter-example that I have ever found. The APA has made it clear that there is really no choice about sexual orientation. They need to be somewhat conservative but so far no research has shown any choice in the matter. The choice that some people have maybe would be bisexuals, and for some reason many people believe that a bisexual individual who enters a relationship with someone of the same sex makes them homosexual....if you subscribe to that then they are in fact 'choosing' their sexuality. However that wouldn't make sense. So I see little to no point in acknowledging any form of choice on the subject. There has been no credible evidence to suggest that it even could be, whereas there is overwhelming evidence saying that it is not.

    Also the APA did say that trying to change one's sexual orientation has no evidence to show it works. Please don't tell me to read a source that I have read many many times. I know exactly what it says.

    All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective.
    Not shown to be effective. Meaning there is no evidence to say that one can change their sexual orientation.
Updated: April 15, 2012
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