Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.
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Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.What can be done to improve referees and linesmen?
Throughout the season i have been absolutely dismayed on how consistantly bad referees are from Premiership to the Conference North to Northern League and Sunday League.
Yesterday i was at the Newcastle game and so many decisions were completely clearly wrong. (I can sympathise with split second decisions which in a referees view is blocked etc) Even blatant throw-ins. One of Boltons players passed the ball out for a throw without any challenge yesterday but the linesman awarded said throw-in back to Bolton. Even Owen Coyle was dismayed.
Papiss Cisse was fouled every time he was on the ball more or less yesterday. One right on the area which could have been a penalty. (watching MOTD, It was a free-kick right on edge)
Chelsea have gained 4 points in the past two games over absolute pathetic refereeing decisions. 2 offside goals against Wigan and a penalty yesterday against Fulham which was never ever one. This could have cost Wigan vital points in staying up and obviously affects the champions league race. Both costing millions of pounds to clubs.
Norwich should have had a penalty right before Spurs scored there equalizer yesterday. There was about seven straight red cards in the championship yesterday because of two-footed agressive tackles. 3 of them were more than harsh.
Blyth Spartans (My local team i watch quite often) have been relegated from the Blue Square Conference North. They got beat 3-0 on saturday. But not one of those goals should have stood. Blyth have had decisions like this all season. Absolute absurd, baffling goals ruled off or penalties not given or given. This is by no means the sole reason for our relegation, But it certainly helped.
Playing sunday league all season, We've had penalties awarded for dives, our keeper elbowed in the face and bleeding but given a yellow card for 'diving' goals that have hit the actual net but 'never' crossed the line.
All in all if i wrote about every team and game where referees have cost a team i'd be here till the end of next season. The old saying that it evens itself out is aload of crap. Games especially at this time of season can cost a club millions of pounds or even its very existance.
But what can we do to help referees make the right decision and actually improve the quality of them as a whole.
One thing that is needed is to make the linesmen full time. I can't believe in this day and age. Linesmen in the premiership are only part-time.
Video technology for big decisions is one thing needed, But that can't happen in Sunday league. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.The standard of refereeing in the prem has steadily been getting worse, this season more so than any there are so many wrong decisions in every match (minor and major) Yesterday Fulham Vs Chelsea, Meireles does three cynical fouls and gets away with it, when he finally gets booked it was from a 'foul' in Riise, Meireles did not even touch Riise, at all. Fair enough Riise dived but the ref was close enough not to be fooled. The least the refs could do is offer consistency but they don't even do that. There's no real solutions apart from hire better refs from other leagues.
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.I'm assuming you mean from abroad?(Original post by mynameisq)
There's no real solutions apart from hire better refs from other leagues.
I havn't seen much of overseas referees. What is the standard? Are they better? -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Video cameras all around like in rugby or tennis, stop the clock while decisions are being carefully made. Although part of me thinks that football fans appreciate criticising the referee as part of the game itself, which might mean it never changes.
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Yeah I watch Dortmund's and Bayern's matches, also Madrid, Barca, Valencia and Bilbao quite often and the refs are really good! I don't know if i'm just used to the low standards of the English refs but whenever I watch a match from those two leagues I am amazed how good the refs are, of course there are some wrong decisions but none that actually make me angry whereas watching a premiership game sometimes I do get quite annoyed at farcical decisions. Some people use the fast pace of the prem to excuse the refs but tbh the pace in the spanish and german leagues matches can and does exceed the prem sometimes.(Original post by Vintage)
I'm assuming you mean from abroad?
I havn't seen much of overseas referees. What is the standard? Are they better? -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.More assistant referees, retrospective punishment/relief and video tech for key decisions. Sometimes human error cannot be avoided so punish players that seek to con the referees.
I always go back to Rodwell's sending off in the Merseyside derby- should never have been sent off and completely changed the game- and a quick glance at a replay would have only taken a 20-30s. Much quicker than dealing with the arguing players and being left with a uncompetitive dud of a game.
I really want FIFA, the world's worst sporting governing body (the rest of the sporting world is laughing at football with respect to using tech), to work on this because incorrect early red cards and crap penalty shouts completely ruin the spectacle for me.Last edited by Aramiss18; 10-04-2012 at 10:29. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Video replays should be introduced.
Both teams are given 3 reviews per game and can ask for a decision to be looked at. If you're wrong then you lose a review. If you're right then you keep them.
A lot of teams will only use for controversial decisions as they will not want to waste reviews on minor infringements.
Referees should be given a rating out of 10 or a 100 after each game based on their decision making. When they are unsure of a result, they should ask for it to be reviewed (and thereby not harming their score unless frivilous and excessive reviews are asked for).
The clock should be stopped for these decisions but in most cases I'd imagine it will take like 10 seconds.
Once the technology is introduced it will quickly become cheaper over time and the technology will filter down the game. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.The factor most people will complain about is the time it takes to make these decisions and that football is a fast paced game.
but so much time is wasted when players complain or when referees go and consult their linesman etc.
It would also stop bias, because the video refs could be sitting miles away, so won't feel the wrath of the fans on them. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.I'd find the game quite boring if they spend a few minutes deciding for a booking or not. It won't be half as fun knowing everything is 100% correct. Would have nothing to talk about.
Both sides have the same refs + lines(wo)men.
Only thing i would like is goal line technology because that's a case of yes or no. Even with replaying all penalty shouts + analysing them, some refs will have different ideas of whether or not it's a foul. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.it wouldn't be a few minutes, a minute at max, you just have to see a replay once or twice to know whether it was a foul or not.(Original post by KyraBloke)
I'd find the game quite boring if they spend a few minutes deciding for a booking or not. It won't be half as fun knowing everything is 100% correct. Would have nothing to talk about.
Both sides have the same refs + lines(wo)men.
Only thing i would like is goal line technology because that's a case of yes or no. Even with replaying all penalty shouts + analysing them, some refs will have different ideas of whether or not it's a foul. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.I speak as a referee here; that doesn't stop me getting annoyed when decisions they go against my team (Sheffield United) - however I don't retort to abusing referees who are remember human
The thing here is (the Bolton example exempted) that as you admit - referees have only the fraction of a second between moving whistle to lips to make a decision. And that it's only usually having rewatched a decision several times that we as fans notice a mistake - and then we deride the referee as incompetent
The problem is also as such that we as fans naturally have a bias - we notice a lot more mistakes when they are made against our team; lets say I've not seen any Spurs fans complaining about the 'ungiven' penalty yesterday. What this means is that though there is a problem with decision making - there is also a notion of the only decisions the referee makes that we have any interest in are the ones where he gets it wrong.
We have a media culture where it's important to find someone to blame. I remember reading this article a few years ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2.../match.arsenal
Now - as was revealed afterwards - Poll got that call correct; so a more honest appraisal could have been Graham Poll got a decision correctly which meant Bolton deservedly got a UEFA Cup place.
Another example is Urs Meier's decision to disallow England's goal against Portugal. As a referee I thought he got that one spot on - as an England fan I thought it was a shocker. - You see what I mean.
Any referee will say that if there is technology there then we should use it. - Rugby is a proof that using the technology available doesn't slow the match down - though if it was introduced I do think we'd need to have a rule similar where play continues until the ball goes dead.
Sadly; with the nature of 'conning' growing more in our game; a referee's job is going to become much harder. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Why would it take minutes? It would take about 30 seconds at most and you would actually get to watch more football if the clock was stopped ala rugby.(Original post by KyraBloke)
I'd find the game quite boring if they spend a few minutes deciding for a booking or not. It won't be half as fun knowing everything is 100% correct. Would have nothing to talk about.
Both sides have the same refs + lines(wo)men.
Only thing i would like is goal line technology because that's a case of yes or no. Even with replaying all penalty shouts + analysing them, some refs will have different ideas of whether or not it's a foul.
What we have at the moment is players surrounding the ref after every decision wasting a fair few seconds and on major decisions wasting a couple of minutes. On average there are only about 55 minutes of actual football played, meaning over half an hour is wasted arguing, setting things up and getting the ball back. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Nice to get a referees view of this.(Original post by Matthew_Lowson)
I speak as a referee here; that doesn't stop me getting annoyed when decisions they go against my team (Sheffield United) - however I don't retort to abusing referees who are remember human
The thing here is (the Bolton example exempted) that as you admit - referees have only the fraction of a second between moving whistle to lips to make a decision. And that it's only usually having rewatched a decision several times that we as fans notice a mistake - and then we deride the referee as incompetent
The problem is also as such that we as fans naturally have a bias - we notice a lot more mistakes when they are made against our team; lets say I've not seen any Spurs fans complaining about the 'ungiven' penalty yesterday. What this means is that though there is a problem with decision making - there is also a notion of the only decisions the referee makes that we have any interest in are the ones where he gets it wrong.
We have a media culture where it's important to find someone to blame. I remember reading this article a few years ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2.../match.arsenal
Now - as was revealed afterwards - Poll got that call correct; so a more honest appraisal could have been Graham Poll got a decision correctly which meant Bolton deservedly got a UEFA Cup place.
Another example is Urs Meier's decision to disallow England's goal against Portugal. As a referee I thought he got that one spot on - as an England fan I thought it was a shocker. - You see what I mean.
Any referee will say that if there is technology there then we should use it. - Rugby is a proof that using the technology available doesn't slow the match down - though if it was introduced I do think we'd need to have a rule similar where play continues until the ball goes dead.
Sadly; with the nature of 'conning' growing more in our game; a referee's job is going to become much harder.
As a ref do you think they should come out after games like managers and defend there actions. Along with saying why they sent off a player etc. It would clear an awful lot up.
Also as a sunday league player i do find a pathetic amount of abuse happens. Enough to put me off ever becoming a ref. Myself if a ref makes a bad decision in a match, obviously against me and my team. my teammates will obviously protest a great deal involving abuse, But i normally speak to the referee and just say 'look ref, that was a bad decision. try even it out a bit' giving the ref a bit of respect can go along way.
Speaking of the Rodwell red card mentioned above also. Did that red card get rescinded by the FA? Because a Newcastle player got sent off awhile back (I shall try remember who, Might have been Barton) and it was never ever a red card. Yet on appeal. The Fa rejected the appeal. When it was 100% never a sending off looking at the replays. The Fa don't help themselves either. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Funnily enough; a mate of mine is doing that as part of his dissertation. He's been sending out a questionnaire - its DangerGranger91 on twitter if anyone is interested in getting in touch with him on there.(Original post by Vintage)
Nice to get a referees view of this.
As a ref do you think they should come out after games like managers and defend there actions. Along with saying why they sent off a player etc. It would clear an awful lot up.
Also as a sunday league player i do find a pathetic amount of abuse happens. Enough to put me off ever becoming a ref. Myself if a ref makes a bad decision in a match, obviously against me and my team. my teammates will obviously protest a great deal involving abuse, But i normally speak to the referee and just say 'look ref, that was a bad decision. try even it out a bit' giving the ref a bit of respect can go along way.
Speaking of the Rodwell red card mentioned above also. Did that red card get rescinded by the FA? Because a Newcastle player got sent off awhile back (I shall try remember who, Might have been Barton) and it was never ever a red card. Yet on appeal. The Fa rejected the appeal. When it was 100% never a sending off looking at the replays. The Fa don't help themselves either.
In some instances it would be really good if a referee did go out and offer explanations for their decisions but in my view it can and would open u
The main positives is that it prevents any of this nonsense that a referee is acting on personal opinions. When on Sunday morning parks the worst I see is from pushy mothers and fathers. The media will be able to speak to all 'three' teams involved in that particular match -
As a ref thankfully I've never had threats made against me - but I've taken a fair bit of abuse - the thing is that I have never had a problem with any manager coming to me and saying that they think I made a mistake - I dont think any referee would have a problem. A problem occurs when somebody makes the comment 'That referee knew it was a penalty but refused to give it because he doesn't like us'
If players/managers had referee qualifications then I dont think we'd see as many disputes. - Neil Warnock is a qualified ref and more often than not when he was charged it was the way he said it rather than the decision itself.
If David Elleray had to make a big call about what to do - I remember Eddie Wolstenholme who was the referee when we played West Brom 10 years ago (the game that got abandoned as we had three red cards and two injured after we had used our subs) he'd regularly come out to explain his reasoning behind decisions. - This left people in no doubt as to what he thought - and the number of times a red card he issued was challenged - I think you can count them on your hands.
The main negatives are the following
A manager/player can be hauled up before the football association for misconduct if they make a comment out of turn about a referee. What happens if the referee explains his reasoning but video evidence shows that he made a mistake? Is he brought before the FA?
If a referee makes a comment then he's on the record. - the natural problem is if a pattern of decision starts to occur; going back to Poll and Elleray; both of whom did have run ins with Keane - to which he noticed. What happens if a comment is made about that? - in the next game that they referee; if Keane makes a challenge does the referee think 'If I give a yellow card here it looks like I'm victimising him.' - a further example is the 2000 cup final where Poll says that due to media suggestions that he was a Chelsea fan (to which he's not he's a QPR fan) it can cause trouble with a team - namely those who may say 'there's two teams playing here' to try and get the next marginal awarded in their favour.
The only time we have any focus on a referee ahead of a match is the World Cup Final and the FA Cup final - apart from those no attention is given to the ref unless he makes what is viewed as an error.
There is a pressure to perform - huge pressure on the referees and the independence from the media may allow them to retain their neutrality. Referees do have to submit reports to the FA over any red and yellow card they issue.
The big thing that I think needs doing with refereeing is to stop yellow cards being unappealable - in the essence of a 2 yellow card dismissal. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Referees and linesmen do an impossible job. They can't see everything and it's unrealistic to expect them too. Even the so called "easy" decisions; how can a linesman look at the furthest back defender, the striker AND the player passing the ball? And in that time he has to be perfectly positioned too.
If there's no tech then there will be mistakes. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.About this point...maybe introduce a 5th official or have the 4th official have access to a laptop with a live feed allowing him to make the decision by looking at replays in real time and relaying it to the referee? It would cut down on more time and at most the stoppage would be 10-20 seconds.(Original post by Zerforax)
Video replays should be introduced.
Both teams are given 3 reviews per game and can ask for a decision to be looked at. If you're wrong then you lose a review. If you're right then you keep them.
A lot of teams will only use for controversial decisions as they will not want to waste reviews on minor infringements.
The clock should be stopped for these decisions but in most cases I'd imagine it will take like 10 seconds.
Once the technology is introduced it will quickly become cheaper over time and the technology will filter down the game. -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.Sauce?(Original post by Mess.)
Why would it take minutes? It would take about 30 seconds at most and you would actually get to watch more football if the clock was stopped ala rugby.
What we have at the moment is players surrounding the ref after every decision wasting a fair few seconds and on major decisions wasting a couple of minutes. On average there are only about 55 minutes of actual football played, meaning over half an hour is wasted arguing, setting things up and getting the ball back.
Spoiler:ShowDo you have a source for this statistic? -
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Re: Referees: How can we stop utter in-competence throughout the game.(Original post by xDave-)
I've seen similar things that say the ball's only in play for roughly 25-30 mins a half, pretty sure he's right but I don't have a source either.
I'm afraid that is disgraceful. I now feel as cheated when I first realised that TV shows which had a 30 minute slot had a 2 min 30 sec delay, 5 min break and 2 min 30 sec early finish for adverts.(Original post by Mess.)
I'm on my phone atm but I think there was a sky sports report last season and Wenger said it years ago I think
I demand every footballer's salary gets reduced by a third to accomodate the lack of football we get or to increase their output by a third
If video refeering were to be introduced, should stop clock be introduced too, in order to get a full 90 mins of football?
