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Health bill and cutbacks. Ruining lives.

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    What is everyones opinion on the health bill?

    I'm struggling to comprehend Camerons rational in any of this. He's going to make everything so efficient that we won't need human beings to run anything, and more and more job losses are going to happen.

    Its hitting me on a personal level... my mother is currently waiting for everything to fall into place to have replacement jaw surgery. She is in absolute agony, on 120mg codeine a day, the doctors are trying to persuade her to have morphine patches, but if she was going to have them, then she wouldn't be able to work. And thats reasonable right? She would be able to get a sick note until after the operation and everything would be great. But no. My mum works as a secretary in the oncology department of a hospital, and they are going to sack 32 secretaries from that department to replace them with voice recognition technology. Everyone is trying to outdo each other to make the best impression so they don't get the sack because if they do, they get offered another job, but its not an equivalent job, it can be a band 1 job. And with my dad waiting to have a brain operation and on disability benefits, having a significantly lesser paid job is out of the question.

    So my mum is having to drug herself up to drag herself to work everyday, because of Cameron and his cutbacks. I've never hated someone so much in my life. I understand creating efficiency is essential, but not to the degree that he is doing, its ridiculous.
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    What is everyones opinion on the health bill?

    I'm struggling to comprehend Camerons rational in any of this. He's going to make everything so efficient that we won't need human beings to run anything, and more and more job losses are going to happen.

    Its hitting me on a personal level... my mother is currently waiting for everything to fall into place to have replacement jaw surgery. She is in absolute agony, on 120mg codeine a day, the doctors are trying to persuade her to have morphine patches, but if she was going to have them, then she wouldn't be able to work. And thats reasonable right? She would be able to get a sick note until after the operation and everything would be great. But no. My mum works as a secretary in the oncology department of a hospital, and they are going to sack 32 secretaries from that department to replace them with voice recognition technology. Everyone is trying to outdo each other to make the best impression so they don't get the sack because if they do, they get offered another job, but its not an equivalent job, it can be a band 1 job. And with my dad waiting to have a brain operation and on disability benefits, having a significantly lesser paid job is out of the question.

    So my mum is having to drug herself up to drag herself to work everyday, because of Cameron and his cutbacks. I've never hated someone so much in my life. I understand creating efficiency is essential, but not to the degree that he is doing, its ridiculous.
    I'm very sorry about your mother.

    Like the tripling of tuition fees, it's an ideological move, not one based on public demand or backing from the medical profession (which has been unanimous in its condemnation of this bill) or indeed actual necessity. If governments (past and present, Lab and Con) were serious about "efficiency" they would never have let these management/consultancy clowns take over the NHS, they wouldn't have let private healthcare companies interfere with GP surgeries, they wouldn't have encouraged PFI or contracted off hospital services...the list goes on.

    I think it is slowly setting the scene to slowly cripple the NHS more and more until it becomes utterly inefficient and we'll have "no choice" but to dismantle it. Or at least that's what the Tories of the future will tell us. After all, when schools, universities, roads and prisons become privatised, why would healthcare be any different? Because David Cameron and his chums are really big ol' socialist softies deep down?
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    What is everyones opinion on the health bill?

    I'm struggling to comprehend Camerons rational in any of this. He's going to make everything so efficient that we won't need human beings to run anything, and more and more job losses are going to happen.

    Its hitting me on a personal level... my mother is currently waiting for everything to fall into place to have replacement jaw surgery. She is in absolute agony, on 120mg codeine a day, the doctors are trying to persuade her to have morphine patches, but if she was going to have them, then she wouldn't be able to work. And thats reasonable right? She would be able to get a sick note until after the operation and everything would be great. But no. My mum works as a secretary in the oncology department of a hospital, and they are going to sack 32 secretaries from that department to replace them with voice recognition technology. Everyone is trying to outdo each other to make the best impression so they don't get the sack because if they do, they get offered another job, but its not an equivalent job, it can be a band 1 job. And with my dad waiting to have a brain operation and on disability benefits, having a significantly lesser paid job is out of the question.

    So my mum is having to drug herself up to drag herself to work everyday, because of Cameron and his cutbacks. I've never hated someone so much in my life. I understand creating efficiency is essential, but not to the degree that he is doing, its ridiculous.
    I think everyone here will sympathise with your family's situation, and we wish you all the best.

    However, in terms of government policies, what is that you are suggesting?

    Are you saying that if a person's job is no longer required, the tax-payer should continue to employ them anyway, even if what they are doing is no longer useful?

    Or that people who are ill should be given preference when redundancies are being decided?
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    Tories are making cuts in the wrong places at the wrong time.

    Here are theee areas for you ... Dave

    Our MASSIVE military empire

    Foreign Aid

    Farm Subsidies

    ... thanks
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    Tories are making cuts in the wrong places at the wrong time.

    Here are theee areas for you ... Dave

    Our MASSIVE military empire

    Foreign Aid

    Farm Subsidies

    ... thanks
    What massive military empire? Our defence budget is 40 billion a year. Compared to the other costs in the government thats tiny.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    What massive military empire? Our defence budget is 40 billion a year. Compared to the other costs in the government thats tiny.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_expenditures

    I like, I like it a lot, look at the size of our country, out population, what "threat" there is to us, and then look at the chart.

    If its at 2-3% of our GDP, but dave is deciding to cut areas than don't even scrape 0.1%, then something is up.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    What massive military empire? Our defence budget is 40 billion a year. Compared to the other costs in the government thats tiny.
    Making it the 4th largest budget area after welfare, health and education.
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_expenditures

    I like, I like it a lot, look at the size of our country, out population, what "threat" there is to us, and then look at the chart.

    If its at 2-3% of our GDP, but dave is deciding to cut areas than don't even scrape 0.1%, then something is up.
    We have international commitments, allies ect and international dependencies that rely on us for defence.. As for what threats there are. If the job of the military was to only react to already existing threats we would have lost every war or conflict we were ever in. You have to be ready to face any threats that may come along.

    When you look at how much goes in to wellfare, well over a hundred billion and healthcare well over a hundred billion. I don't think 40 billion for defence is that much to pay.
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    I don't get why priests (not sure of which creed) are paid to work in religious posts in hospitals? Surely that's more of a pointless drain than a human being on the phone.

    People volunteer to read fictional books to the blind, so why don't priests volunteer to read their fiction?
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    (Original post by Mbob)
    I think everyone here will sympathise with your family's situation, and we wish you all the best.

    However, in terms of government policies, what is that you are suggesting?

    Are you saying that if a person's job is no longer required, the tax-payer should continue to employ them anyway, even if what they are doing is no longer useful?

    Or that people who are ill should be given preference when redundancies are being decided?
    When secretaries to the matron of a ward are 'no longer useful' that's efficiency gone too far. The more efficient it becomes the more unefficient the whole economy becomes because that's more people with no jobs, or underpaid so they are reliant on the benefits system or don't have as much disposable income to spend to stimulate the economy. Jobs and job creation is needed, not cutting people out.
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    I'm very sorry about your mother.

    Like the tripling of tuition fees, it's an ideological move, not one based on public demand or backing from the medical profession (which has been unanimous in its condemnation of this bill) or indeed actual necessity. If governments (past and present, Lab and Con) were serious about "efficiency" they would never have let these management/consultancy clowns take over the NHS, they wouldn't have let private healthcare companies interfere with GP surgeries, they wouldn't have encouraged PFI or contracted off hospital services...the list goes on.

    I think it is slowly setting the scene to slowly cripple the NHS more and more until it becomes utterly inefficient and we'll have "no choice" but to dismantle it. Or at least that's what the Tories of the future will tell us. After all, when schools, universities, roads and prisons become privatised, why would healthcare be any different? Because David Cameron and his chums are really big ol' socialist softies deep down?
    It really is getting ridiculous. My mum was telling me that when they need to order stationery and supplies, they go to an intranet catalogue website, and when all the cutbacks started, 90% of the catalogue has been blacked out. The only things you can get are paper, paper lips, staples basic black biros. Anything else like ink cartridges has to be approved by someone else. My 50 year old mother has to be approved to get a printer cartridge. I think she's clever enough to know that a cartridge has run out when it stops printing for gods sake.
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    When secretaries to the matron of a ward are 'no longer useful' that's efficiency gone too far. The more efficient it becomes the more unefficient the whole economy becomes because that's more people with no jobs, or underpaid so they are reliant on the benefits system or don't have as much disposable income to spend to stimulate the economy. Jobs and job creation is needed, not cutting people out.
    Sorry, this line of thinking doesn't work in the public sector. The public sector doesn't really bring in money. Someone who goes jobless in the public sector is actually beneficial for public spending, as it's one less wage to pay. You may say, 'well, what about public workers who pay tax?', well, it's ludicrous that public sector need to pay tax at all. Public sector workers merely push their wage around the economic circle and don't bring money IN to the country. However, jobs in the private sector are more valuable because that money IS actually brought into the country. External investment from other countries into the private sector bring more money into the pot. Whilst I think the public sector workers need to be protected, it most definitely needs streamlining. A simple look at the past ten years of public spending which has brought us into this overly comfortable cushion will conclude that this efficiency and value for money must be brought about somewhere.
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    Tories are making cuts in the wrong places at the wrong time.

    Here are theee areas for you ... Dave

    Our MASSIVE military empire

    Foreign Aid

    Farm Subsidies

    ... thanks
    If we abolished the entire military the government's budget would decrease by ~5%. The welfare state is the only place cuts can have a substantial impact on the budget.
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    (Original post by Nick100)
    If we abolished the entire military the government's budget would decrease by ~5%. The welfare state is the only place cuts can have a substantial impact on the budget.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileKExpenditure.svg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_protection

    I suggest we cut a lot of bereaucracy aswell.

    I'd say cut at lot from the military because really, all we are doing is "protecting" other people and making ourselves more open to hatred and threat by being everywhere.
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    so glad im leaving this country. Least back home in Ireland they still give a damn about the populace
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    I suggest we cut a lot of bereaucracy aswell.
    Doesn't the new Bill increase bereaucracy? I'm sure I heard/read somewhere that the three-tier management is being increased to a five-tier one? In what world what increasing management in the NHS be beneficial for clients - the word they now 'have' to use instead of patients
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    I don't get why priests (not sure of which creed) are paid to work in religious posts in hospitals? Surely that's more of a pointless drain than a human being on the phone.

    People volunteer to read fictional books to the blind, so why don't priests volunteer to read their fiction?
    In many religious denominations, certainly the main ones many priests are paid to work in their parish ,

    i think you are underestimating the role of the hospital chaplain , as well as ministering to patients of their own faith , they provide an ecumenical and arguably 'secular' support to the whole hospital community, patients, staff, relatives etc

    they also have a valuable role in bridging cultural differences

    also in terms of numbers employed a trust with 3 sites and over 1000 beds might employ 8 or so FTEs in chaplaincy services , i think we have something like that 3CoE full timers, 2 'free church' full timers , 1 and bit FTE RC (3 part timers, one for each site) and 2 and bit Muslim ( 1 male FT and one female Part time at the site with the biggest concentration of muslim population and 1 FT across the other two sites - though all the chaplains work cross site for on-call ). all of them will speak to anyone who wants to speak with them , although how they make themselves available varies somewhat ( i.e. one of our free church chaplains allocates himself a couple of hours a day to 'patrol' the wards just to be a presence )

    spirituality and religion is an important part of how many people deal with illness and injury or perhaps we should fire the people who run the patient library as well ?


    chaplains are paid at band 5 or 6 and the senior chaplain is a band 7 ... i rather remove some of the pointless middle managers on band 7 or 8a than remove the chaplaincy services


    changing subjects, with respect to the OP

    1.what makes you think that a change in meds will prevent your mother from working

    2. do you actually have the slightest clue employment law rather than the rumours and misinformation that is put around by the Liarbore funding Unison propagandists ...
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    When secretaries to the matron of a ward are 'no longer useful' that's efficiency gone too far. The more efficient it becomes the more unefficient the whole economy becomes because that's more people with no jobs, or underpaid so they are reliant on the benefits system or don't have as much disposable income to spend to stimulate the economy. Jobs and job creation is needed, not cutting people out.
    the need for secretarial support has changed drastically in the past 30 years thanks to IT systems, , there is also a problem with a false hierarchy of secretarial jobs in the NHS based on whether someone is a 'clerk-typist', a 'team secretary' or a 'personal secretary' and within team secretaries how many clerk typists there are and if the team you serve has PAs as well ,, then for the PA / personal secretary stuff it depends on how many people you are PA to - as the fewer people you are PA to the more 'important' you and they must be ...

    all in all it;s a system based on mechanical typewriters and paper diaries , rather than the IT systems in use , speech to text, electronic diary management etc has reduced the need for secretarial support as has the use of the PDAs and smart phones .

    we've also replaced flimsy multipart TTO letters followed by a summary of the admission typed by a secretary possibly some weeks later with a discharge summary generated at the point of discharge by the Doctors , Nurses ,Pharmacists and other HCPs caring for the patient on the ward ... ( ditto with stuff like therapy records being entered directly to SystmOne and immediately available to GPs and community teams )

    'bringing back matron' was a publicity stunt and often all it has done is created 'busy work' for Clinical Nurse Managers by having to block out periods of their week to deal with trivia or make themselves 'visible' to visitors etc - it rarely provides an opportunity for them to remain clinically credible because instead of being an expert nurse and supporting junior staff they are tied up dealing with trivia over the the fact that the sandwiches last Thursday were different to the selection on the menu and someone is not happy with a apology from the catering supervisor and /or ward sister... then you get the idea that putting higher graded staff in arole will magically solve problems , no it won't it just means that the higher graded staff are left banging their head against the wall when social services, ambulance providers etc can't deliver what they are contracted to do.
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    It really is getting ridiculous. My mum was telling me that when they need to order stationery and supplies, they go to an intranet catalogue website, and when all the cutbacks started, 90% of the catalogue has been blacked out. The only things you can get are paper, paper lips, staples basic black biros. Anything else like ink cartridges has to be approved by someone else. My 50 year old mother has to be approved to get a printer cartridge. I think she's clever enough to know that a cartridge has run out when it stops printing for gods sake.
    meanwhile there are hundreds of cartridges sitting unused around the site tying thousands of pounds up in unnecessary stock holding and that's before you consider the 'wastage' that occurs ...

    let me tell you a troy, it;s not about printer cartridges , although it is about wastage in the NHS. On the Ward i work in we have a trolley with drawers in it in this trolley we keep supplies for taking blood samples, putting IV cannulas in, doing Lumbar punctures and doing ASIA score .

    in the drawer that has stuff for IV cannulation in , there are 12 'cannula packs' these contain all but three things you need to put a cannula in,

    - skin prep
    - cannula
    - sterile field
    - tegaderm1638 dressing to secure the cannula
    - 5 small gauze squares
    - a small clinical waste bag for the gauzes and field if you get blood on them
    - and a insertion / VIP checks record sheet to go in the notes

    the three things you need that aren't in the pack are

    i. an extension set - there are 4 different extension sets you might use - therefore in that drawer there is a selection of the different extension sets,
    ii. Saline for injection to flush the cannula
    iii. a 10 ml syringe to flush with

    also in the drawer are 10 or 12 extra tegaderm 1638 dressings in case you need a spare one are putting two cannulas in using one cannula pack and an loose cannula - except some bright spark decided rather than there being 10 or 12 extra dressing in there they'd put two boxes of 50 in there from the stock shelves ( which then get restocked by the supplies department ) so we've now got several months worth of extra IV dressings for no real need ( remember when you put a cannula in there's one in the pack - so the individually packed ones a re spares / extras .. )

    imagine this repeated over all 30 or 40 clinicla areas in a trust and it suddenly all starts to add up
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    (Original post by MancStudent098)
    Making it the 4th largest budget area after welfare, health and education.
    Yeah but Health and welfare the two main areas above defence are close to 100 billions pounds more.

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