[Jamin]

(Original post by Okashira)
God is absolutely perfect, His presence is brighter than all the stars in the universe combined. If we are not perfect as He is, He will consume us like a fire consumes wood. Hell was invented for those who want nothing to do with God. A while ago I made this thread.......http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=1966530

(Original post by Okashira)
That's where you're wrong. Nobody goes to hell for not believing in God. Hell is a jail. You go to jail for breaking the law.

Do you want to maybe, you know, stop contradicting yourself if you want to convey a valid argument?

[Joeyboy 12]

(Original post by jmj)
Fair enough, what would you say then if I told you that the Gospel writer John who talks about Jesus being God the most was actually His best friend, rather than somebody a lot later who had just exxagurated the story? Plus what do you make of the fact that 11 out of 12 disciples were killed for their claim (the disciple John was put in prison on the Isle of Patmos) that Jesus rose from the dead?

You're not being offensive at all you're perfectly welcome and free to your opinion. May I ask however if you've ever read the Bible? Have you investigated the evidence for himself?

Ok, but how can you be sure he was his best friend? People make these assumptions without proper evidence. I could write a biography on Drogba and name myself as his best friend, it's not true but I can still write it. Thousands of years later someone could read it and say so and so was Drogba's best pal! And the disciples were probably killed for being seen as creating anarchy. If somebody said someone rose from the dead, and it was believed by people, there would be a bit of little panic in the streets. It would also make people lose faith in their ruler/rulers, as the 'resurrected' person would seem more powerful. No king or queen would want that.

I have read parts of the bible but to be honest I found to kill a mocking bird and harry potter more engaging. To me the bible is just a book that creates to much conflict in the world.

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Joeyboy 12)
Ok, but how can you be sure he was his best friend? People make these assumptions without proper evidence. I could write a biography on Drogba and name myself as his best friend, it's not true but I can still write it. Thousands of years later someone could read it and say so and so was Drogba's best pal! And the disciples were probably killed for being seen as creating anarchy. If somebody said someone rose from the dead, and it was believed by people, there would be a bit of little panic in the streets. It would also make people lose faith in their ruler/rulers, as the 'resurrected' person would seem more powerful. No king or queen would want that.

I have read parts of the bible but to be honest I found to kill a mocking bird and harry potter more engaging. To me the bible is just a book that creates to much conflict in the world.

And in addition jesus simply lied to his "best friend" about it, even if he was the best friend!

[tomclarky]

(Original post by jmj)
I believe that God is a good and just judge, so I trust He knows what He is doing regarding those people

How can God be good and just when he condemns people for being gay?

[Okashira]

(Original post by Jamin)
Do you want to maybe, you know, stop contradicting yourself if you want to convey a valid argument?

I don't see it. Hell was originally created for the devil and his angels. They certainly wanted nothing to do with God, so a place was made for them. If there are those who want nothing to do with God, of course they are going to commit crime and sin against Him. That crime is judged in Hell.


The question to my response in the second quote, was why do people go to Hell for not believing in God? The answer is nobody goes to Hell for not believing in God, rather the truth is believing in God's righteousness is the only way go to Heaven. If you don't put your trust in His righteousness, you will be judged by what you done on this earth. If you committed crime, you will go to jail (which is Hell).

(Original post by jmj)
Hi Okashira, I just wondered what the Biblical backing is for this? Because the other two places the Bible mentions paradise (Genesis and Revelation) it seems to refer to the Garden of Eden and the new creation; so thought paradise was a perfect place with God (in this case heaven)- so just wondered what this view was based upon? Thanks

Jesus talked about it when He told of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Some debate whether or not this was just another parable Jesus was telling, but none of the characters in Jesus' parables had names. (He always says a certain man, a servant, a woman, etc) Yet three of the people in this story was named, one of them being Abraham himself. So I take it Jesus was telling a true story.


Another time Jesus made reference to Paradise when He was talking to one of the criminals that were crucified with Him. He told him that he would be in Paradise, and Scripture mentions in 1 Peter 3:19 where Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison.

(Original post by tazarooni89)
No judge would hold his job very long if he punished a different person from the one who actually committed the crime, either.



Well if he's the most powerful being in the universe with power beyond our understanding, he could have literally taken our sin and put it somewhere other than on Jesus. He could have put it on a rock and then punished the rock - as though the rock had comitted all our sins. Or he could have literally taken our sin and just made it vanish, as though nobody had committed them.

If God is so powerful that he can do things which don't appear to make sense to us (like transferring someone's sinful history elsewhere), why can't he do these things?

He's the most powerful in the universe, but we had to be redeemed legally. Remember I said God is just and righteous, and He follows the standard that He set Himself. Now, a rock can't take our sin, we are not rocks. Even if God placed our sin on the rock, what will He take from the rock and place on us? What has the rock done to make us rigtheous? (We would all be rock heads ) We have to receive righteousness, or else we will continue to be the same sinful person. Jesus lived the perfect life, obeyed all God's laws, and was a man.


God is not going to make our sin vanish, because that would be overlooking crime. Jesus is the perfect substitute, because He was the only one who could bear our sin. There's a lot more on this.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Okashira)
He's the most powerful in the universe, but we had to be redeemed legally. Remember I said God is just and righteous, and He follows the standard that He set Himself.

Yes, but if you are going to use the argument that "God is just and righteous" to tell me why he won't simply overlook our sin or transfer our sin onto something that doesn't mind being punished, then the same argument should also apply to transferring our sin onto another person.

We don't usually consider it "just and righteous" to physically punish someone who didn't commit the crime in the first place.

Now, a rock can't take our sin, we are not rocks. Even if God placed our sin on the rock, what will He take from the rock and place on us? What has the rock done to make us rigtheous? (We would all be rock heads ) We have to receive righteousness, or else we will continue to be the same sinful person. Jesus lived the perfect life, obeyed all God's laws, and was a man.

But you said God is powerful beyond our understanding. Even though a rock has no righteousness, God should be able to create a "righteous rock" specifically for this purpose. Or he should be able to make it such that we don't need to "receive righteousness" from somewhere. Or he should be able to manufacture "righteousness" out of nowhere.

Sure, it's difficult to make sense of all these concepts. But it's just as difficult to make sense of transferring sin onto Jesus. As far as our usual understanding goes, my guilt cannot be transferred elsewhere.

[Okashira]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Yes, but if you are going to use the argument that "God is just and righteous" to tell me why he won't simply overlook our sin or transfer our sin onto something that doesn't mind being punished, then the same argument should also apply to transferring our sin onto another person.

We don't usually consider it "just and righteous" to physically punish someone who didn't commit the crime in the first place.



But you said God is powerful beyond our understanding. Even though a rock has no righteousness, God should be able to create a "righteous rock" specifically for this purpose. Or he should be able to make it such that we don't need to "receive righteousness" from somewhere. Or he should be able to manufacture "righteousness" out of nowhere.

Sure, it's difficult to make sense of all these concepts. But it's just as difficult to make sense of transferring sin onto Jesus. As far as our usual understanding goes, my guilt cannot be transferred elsewhere.

You make it sound like Jesus didn't have any say in the matter, that God randomly took some guy on the street, and made him the sacrifice for sin. Jesus willingly became our sacrifice.


I'll say it again, sin must be punished. God said the soul that sins, shall surely die. To make our sin go poof into thin air, makes Him a liar. God is all powerful, but He holds His word above His own name. God also said without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. (Again showing why sin need to be punished. If not, it would make God a liar)


A rock can't die, it's not even alive. Now, animals were sacrificed in the OT, but they could only cover sin for a time. (We are not animals, so only a man can redeem another man) So the "only" legal way for us to be redeem without making God out to be a liar, is for a righteous man to redeem us. (As it is said, by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners. Yet as by one man's obedience, many will be made righteous. Jesus is the second and last Adam if you will)

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Okashira)
You make it sound like Jesus didn't have any say in the matter, that God randomly took some guy on the street, and made him the sacrifice for sin. Jesus willingly became our sacrifice.

Him crying out "My Lord, why have you forsaken me" on the cross doesn't really make it sound like it.

And even if he did die willingly - what has that got to do with it? It still wouldn't usually be considered righteous or just to punish a different person, even if that person was willing to make the sacrifice.

I'll say it again, sin must be punished. God said the soul that sins, shall surely die. To make our sin go poof into thin air, makes Him a liar. God is all powerful, but He holds His word above His own name. God also said without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. (Again showing why sin need to be punished. If not, it would make God a liar)

If the only reason for doing these things is to prevent himself from becoming a liar, he could have just not said "the soul that sins shall die" etc. in the first place.

A rock can't die, it's not even alive. Now, animals were sacrificed in the OT, but they could only cover sin for a time. (We are not animals, so only a man can redeem another man) So the "only" legal way for us to be redeem without making God out to be a liar, is for a righteous man to redeem us. (As it is said, by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners. Yet as by one man's obedience, many will be made righteous. Jesus is the second and last Adam if you will)

You're not getting my point. Even with all your reasoning, the point is that God supposedly has power beyond all understanding. So it can't possibly be beyond his ability to think of a different way to go about it.

You can't say "God can do anything, even things beyond our understanding", and at the same time say "X has to be the case".

[Okashira]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Him crying out "My Lord, why have you forsaken me" on the cross doesn't really make it sound like it.

And even if he did die willingly - what has that got to do with it? It still wouldn't usually be considered righteous or just to punish a different person, even if that person was willing to make the sacrifice.

Jesus was quoting Scripture when He said that. Some proofs for that, is the very same phrasing in found in the Pslams, word for word. Another proof is He said it in hebrew. (If Jesus was really asking God why He forsook Him, I doubt He would be debating what language to ask in) Then directly after that, He tells one of the criminals he would be in Paradise, and that Jesus yells out "it is finished". Both of these instances fully showed Jesus knew exactly what was going on, and why God forsook Him on the cross. All these things point toward Jesus quoting Scripture. (He did it for our benefit)

(Original post by tazarooni89)
If the only reason for doing these things is to prevent himself from becoming a liar, he could have just not said "the soul that sins shall die" etc. in the first place.

The rules have already been set. How would you like to work for a boss who had the freedom to change up the language of your contract at will? Your boss would come in on pay day and say to you, "I know according to the old contract, I was suppose to pay you today. Yet in all my wisdom, I took the liberty to change up the language, and I'll pay you next year".


If you expect your boss to be consistent, don't expect any less from God.

(Original post by tazarooni89)
You're not getting my point. Even with all your reasoning, the point is that God supposedly has power beyond all understanding. So it can't possibly be beyond his ability to think of a different way to go about it.

You can't say "God can do anything, even things beyond our understanding", and at the same time say "X has to be the case".

Again, you wouldn't like to work for a boss who could change up the rules at will. God is the Creator, and thus is all powerful. Yet He is righteous as well. Not only is having a completely perfect man die for our sins the only way to redeem man, sending Jesus was the best way to do so. God being all powerful, "literally" took our sins and placed it on Jesus. So it's not like Jesus died because we committed crime. Jesus literally took our crime, to point that you could say He committed our crimes, and they were punished on the cross. Humans can't take crime and place it on another. (And I believe that is your understanding with this. That Jesus died for our sins, and not that He became our sin.)

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Okashira)
The rules have already been set. How would you like to work for a boss who had the freedom to change up the language of your contract at will? Your boss would come in on pay day and say to you, "I know according to the old contract, I was suppose to pay you today. Yet in all my wisdom, I took the liberty to change up the language, and I'll pay you next year".

An omniscient god would already know that saying this would require the sacrifice of jesus, and would not say it.

Also, wouldn't you be happy if your boss said "I said in your contract you had to work this week, but actually you can go home and get paid anyway?" That's more of a comparison than your misleading negative twist.

Finally, God has no reason to be consistent, and frequently is not throughout your scripture.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Okashira)
Jesus was quoting Scripture when He said that. Some proofs for that, is the very same phrasing in found in the Pslams, word for word. Another proof is He said it in hebrew. (If Jesus was really asking God why He forsook Him, I doubt He would be debating what language to ask in) Then directly after that, He tells one of the criminals he would be in Paradise, and that Jesus yells out "it is finished". Both of these instances fully showed Jesus knew exactly what was going on, and why God forsook Him on the cross. All these things point toward Jesus quoting Scripture. (He did it for our benefit)

Where is the same phrasing found in the Psalms? And why exactly was Jesus quoting it?

The rules have already been set. How would you like to work for a boss who had the freedom to change up the language of your contract at will? Your boss would come in on pay day and say to you, "I know according to the old contract, I was suppose to pay you today. Yet in all my wisdom, I took the liberty to change up the language, and I'll pay you next year".


If you expect your boss to be consistent, don't expect any less from God.


Again, you wouldn't like to work for a boss who could change up the rules at will. God is the Creator, and thus is all powerful. Yet He is righteous as well. Not only is having a completely perfect man die for our sins the only way to redeem man, sending Jesus was the best way to do so. God being all powerful, "literally" took our sins and placed it on Jesus. So it's not like Jesus died because we committed crime. Jesus literally took our crime, to point that you could say He committed our crimes, and they were punished on the cross. Humans can't take crime and place it on another. (And I believe that is your understanding with this. That Jesus died for our sins, and not that He became our sin.)

I'm not saying that God should have been inconsistent with his rules. He could have just set up different rules in the first place.

I understand what you're saying about literally taking the sin and putting it on Jesus - he can do it because he is all powerful. The point is, it doesn't make sense to us, yet he can still do it. Well if he can do things that don't make sense, he can fulfil any criteria he wants. He can always find a way. He can overlook our sin without losing his righteousness or justice. He can set up a situation such that transferring our sins to a rock is good enough. He can change his rules without being inconsistent. To say that there is anything he can't do, or to say "This is the only way God could achieve XYZ" is to limit this sense-superseding power that you say he has.

[E.Blackadder]

(Original post by Okashira)
Many ask why did Jesus have to go to the cross, in order for our sins to be forgiven? Why didn't God just forgive our sins without sending Jesus? The answer is God cannot overlook crime. No judge on this earth would hold his job very long, if he simply dismissed every criminal case that falls on his desk. (Unless that court is corrupt) Crime must be punished.

if he can't do something then he isn't god.

also judges, police and attorneys overlook crime all the time if there is a contextual reason to do so. being an informant, bad life circumstances, ignorance etc. no judge on earth would send someone else down for a crime they didn't commit. jesus is merely a scapegoat. and scapegoating is absolutely abhorrent.

[Bishy786]

(Original post by jmj)
It would depend on the individual circumstances because Christians are called to fight rebellion against God. However Christians can do pretty awful things because we're still humans and therefore can still mess up pretty badly. The power of the cross is that anybody, no matter what we've done, can find forgiveness in Jesus- that's how much God loves us.

So murderers and rapists WILL go to Heaven if they believe in Jesus's "salvation"?

Does that not give a "free rein" to people to commit horrendus crimes?

Because the punishment for our sin (rebellion against God) is death- not just death but eternal judgement. God shows how much He loves us in that He sent Jesus to take that punishment on our behalf and in our place (therefore dying on the cross). I guess in a certain sense, Jesus didn't 'need' to at all, God would've been completely within His rights to leave us facing judegment and death for our rebellion against Him. But God shows His goodness and love in sending Jesus to take the punishment in our place so we could be forgiven and be friends with God.

So Jesus was a "scrapegoat" for Human fallacy?
Can we not attain Heaven through good actions?
What about unborn fetus's or babies who cannot comprehend words, let alone the the sacrifices of Jesus?

The Old Testament describes people before Jesus as 'justified by faith' right in the beginning of the bible, pretty much as soon as Adam and Eve had rebelled against God, God would send a Messiah (God's special King who would come and sort out the problem of their sin) so a person could be friends with God by trusting that God would save them.

So people of previous nations will go to Heaven even if they hadn't believed in Jesus?

Good question- I don't think it's possible to understand fully what happened (because we're not God) but the bible teaches that Jesus has a human nature and a divine nature (He is God in human form). The bible says his human nature definitely died and then His divine nature was then able to raise Himself from the dead.

Why did "God" need to come down personally and "sacrifice himself"? Could he not just spontaneously forgive everyone if they believed in him?

Just one other question, Does Christianity regard Adam as a Prophet of God?

[Bishy786]

(Original post by Okashira)
When a person receives Jesus into their heart, not only do they receive forgiveness of sin, they also receive empowerment to obey God. So if a person is still living in sin, it shows they are still trusting in their own ability, hence they sin. To repent means to change the mind, acknowledge that you are sinful, and then receive Jesus into the heart. (For both forgiveness and empowerment) As we behold Jesus, we are transformed into His likeness. (Where did Jesus commit rape, murder, etc?)


A person who is still doing these things have not put their trust in Jesus, but it's still in their own ability, and we can do nothing in ourselves.

But humans are fallible. Only God is perfect. Surely this negates your point that "Jesus cures all"?

1. Because sin must be punished. As Scripture says, the soul that sins shall surely die. Jesus took our place.

But if that were true, everyone would immortal.

2. They went to a place called Paradise, which was a seperate compartment in Hell, where no suffering was taking place. Those who were there, put their trust in God (people like Abraham), and they waited for Jesus to come and redeem them. This is where Jesus was for three days and three nights. Preaching to those who were in Paradise, and they received Jesus there. Today, there are in Heaven with Jesus.

Wait! I thought Jesus was God and now you are saying that Abraham was God! Who was the "first God"? Adam????????

Is the "3 days/3 nights" in reference to the Easter weekend which starts on Friday and ends on Suday?

3. God became a man in Jesus. It's interesting because the moment we are born, we are destined to die (because of the sinful nature). Yet Jesus was the only Person who was born to die.

Who was in charge of the world whilst "God" lived his life in thiw world?

But Jesus was also "sinful". Did he not instruct his disciples to purchase swords when it became known that he was to die on that particular day?

[Okashira]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
An omniscient god would already know that saying this would require the sacrifice of jesus, and would not say it.

Also, wouldn't you be happy if your boss said "I said in your contract you had to work this week, but actually you can go home and get paid anyway?" That's more of a comparison than your misleading negative twist.

Finally, God has no reason to be consistent, and frequently is not throughout your scripture.

It doesn't matter whether the change is good for us or bad for us, if God can change up His word at will, His word is ultimately no good. Would you trust me if my word was no good?



God is consistent throughout the Scriptures. He deals with us according to our heart toward Him. He's kept all of His promises, and so on. As far as omniscience concerns, if God knew men "would" sin and "never" return to Him through Jesus, He would have never created man. So before man existed, there was nothing to know about what man "would" do. As the Bible says, God knows the end from the beginning. If there is no beginning, there is no end. And if there is no end, there is nothing to know.

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Where is the same phrasing found in the Psalms? And why exactly was Jesus quoting it?

Psalm 22 verse 1. Jesus was quoting it in front of the rabbis, and all those gathered around Him at the cross who know of Scripture. So that they would realize what was happening, that the events were written in the Bible almost a thousand years prior to Jesus' birth.

(Original post by tazarooni89)
I'm not saying that God should have been inconsistent with his rules. He could have just set up different rules in the first place.

I understand what you're saying about literally taking the sin and putting it on Jesus - he can do it because he is all powerful. The point is, it doesn't make sense to us, yet he can still do it. Well if he can do things that don't make sense, he can fulfil any criteria he wants. He can always find a way. He can overlook our sin without losing his righteousness or justice. He can set up a situation such that transferring our sins to a rock is good enough. He can change his rules without being inconsistent. To say that there is anything he can't do, or to say "This is the only way God could achieve XYZ" is to limit this sense-superseding power that you say he has.

A lot of things don't make sense to us, it doesn't mean there aren't rules for things. Take the study of dark matter for instance. We don't know what it is exactly, yet we know it holds galaxies together. We don't know what dark energy is, but we believe it is helping to expand the universe. It's kind of like that with God's power. We don't know how He laid our sin upon Jesus, but we know He did it logically and righteously. He didn't break any rules, nor broke His word. (Let's say God was using a higher level of science)

(Original post by E.Blackadder)
if he can't do something then he isn't god.

also judges, police and attorneys overlook crime all the time if there is a contextual reason to do so. being an informant, bad life circumstances, ignorance etc. no judge on earth would send someone else down for a crime they didn't commit. jesus is merely a scapegoat. and scapegoating is absolutely abhorrent.

Technically, He could overlook crime, but He will not because He is rigtheous. We know human judges and the human court as a whole sometimes grant immunity and other things, but God knows everything, and will not make any deals come judgment day.



The simple truth is, we can't correct ourselves, because we are evil by nature. God's standard is perfection, that is the standard He created us with. We fell from that standard, and we can't pick ourselves up. That is why by God's grace, He extended His right hand to help us up. We have to receive His hand, and He will pull us up and set us on our feet again. To say it's abhorrent to reject God's hand, is to slap God's hand away in disgust.



How many of you ever tried to help an elderly man/woman (perhaps if they fell, you tried to help them up. Something like that), and they shouted at you saying "I CAN DO IT MYSELF!" ? Then you say in your mind 'Fine, I was just trying to help' and you walk off, looking back only to continue to see them struggle greatly. In a way it's like that for God when dealing with a self righteous person. He knows their condition, and yet there is nothing He can do for them because they will not receive His extended hand. It's actually infinity times worse and heartbreaking for God, because He knows where those who are proud of heart are headed.



So ultimately, God justly forgives our sin in Jesus. We as humans have programs that may help reform criminals once they have served their sentence. Yet in Jesus, we are transformed, our old selves passing away.

(Original post by Bishy786)
But humans are fallible. Only God is perfect. Surely this negates your point that "Jesus cures all"?

It doesn't negate any point, in truth, it validates some of what I've been saying. We are made perfect in Jesus, and we can do nothing without Him. It's about who are we trusting once saved? Are Christians trusting their body's instincts, or are they yeilding to who they now are in Christ?



In all honesty, if someone is still raping and murdering, they have not repented at all. To repent means to change their mind, to acknowledge in their mind that they are sinful. To see nothing wrong with raping and murdering, means they don't believe those acts are sinful, and thus they haven't changed their mind about sin.

(Original post by Bishy786)
But if that were true, everyone would immortal.

Even though our spirit is made new and is perfect in Christ, our bodies are yet to be redeemed. (Our bodies are yet to be raised like Jesus body is and has been since His ressurection)

(Original post by Bishy786)
Wait! I thought Jesus was God and now you are saying that Abraham was God! Who was the "first God"? Adam????????

Where did I say Abraham was God?

(Original post by Bishy786)
Is the "3 days/3 nights" in reference to the Easter weekend which starts on Friday and ends on Suday?

That's a church tradition, but Jesus wasn't crucified on friday.

(Original post by Bishy786)
But Jesus was also "sinful". Did he not instruct his disciples to purchase swords when it became known that he was to die on that particular day?

There was a reason Jesus told them to get a sword. It had something to do with prophecy. (As Jesus made statements concerning what was to be fulfilled.)

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Okashira)
It doesn't matter whether the change is good for us or bad for us, if God can change up His word at will, His word is ultimately no good. Would you trust me if my word was no good?



God is consistent throughout the Scriptures. He deals with us according to our heart toward Him. He's kept all of His promises, and so on. As far as omniscience concerns, if God knew men "would" sin and "never" return to Him through Jesus, He would have never created man. So before man existed, there was nothing to know about what man "would" do. As the Bible says, God knows the end from the beginning. If there is no beginning, there is no end. And if there is no end, there is nothing to know.

1) god is above humanity. He can change his will if he wants and we just have to accept it. Or are you judging him based on what you would expect human values to be? I think you might just be.

2) This is very naive.

Old testament: KILL, KILL, KILL EVERYONE

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/godkills.htm

Killed over 130,000

New testament: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE EVERYONE

Still killed millions.

3) With regard to omniscience: your answer was rubbish. If god didn't know that men would sin he isn't omniscient, because he didn't know. As soon as he created the universe (beginning) he knows all its details (end).

[Bishy786]

(Original post by Okashira)
It doesn't negate any point, in truth, it validates some of what I've been saying. We are made perfect in Jesus, and we can do nothing without Him. It's about who are we trusting once saved? Are Christians trusting their body's instincts, or are they yeilding to who they now are in Christ?

But why do we need to "go through" Jesus? Why is it not sufficient just to believe in God?

In all honesty, if someone is still raping and murdering, they have not repented at all. To repent means to change their mind, to acknowledge in their mind that they are sinful. To see nothing wrong with raping and murdering, means they don't believe those acts are sinful, and thus they haven't changed their mind about sin.

But God "created" the devil which according to Christian dogma, is the root of evil. Therefore, it can be construed to state that God has made the devil more powerful than Jesus.

Even though our spirit is made new and is perfect in Christ, our bodies are yet to be redeemed. (Our bodies are yet to be raised like Jesus body is and has been since His ressurection)

So Jesus is in Heaven now?

Where did I say Abraham was God?

"Those who were there, put their trust in God (people like Abraham), and they waited for Jesus to come and redeem them."

That's a church tradition, but Jesus wasn't crucified on friday.

When was he crucified and when was he resurrected?

There was a reason Jesus told them to get a sword. It had something to do with prophecy. (As Jesus made statements concerning what was to be fulfilled.)

Could you show me the prophecy please?

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Bishy786)
x

I agree with your points but to save yourself some face you should know:

"Those who were there, put their trust in God (people like Abraham), and they waited for Jesus to come and redeem them."

I'm fairly sure he means "[people like abraham] put their trust in god."

[Bishy786]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
I agree with your points but to save yourself some face you should know:

"Those who were there, put their trust in God (people like Abraham), and they waited for Jesus to come and redeem them."

I'm fairly sure he means "[people like abraham] put their trust in god."

I guess I just read it in the wrong way especially with people saying "Jesus was God" and all that. Thanks man.

[sexbo]

(Original post by Okashira)
Many ask why did Jesus have to go to the cross, in order for our sins to be forgiven? Why didn't God just forgive our sins without sending Jesus? The answer is God cannot overlook crime. No judge on this earth would hold his job very long, if he simply dismissed every criminal case that falls on his desk. (Unless that court is corrupt) Crime must be punished.

Summary: God is subject to the same rules as human judges

(Original post by Okashira)
Now, God is the most powerful being in the universe. He has power that goes beyond our understanding. He did create the cosmos after all. (and that was just a hint of His power) He literally took our sin, and placed it on His Son at the cross. That Jesus literally became our sin, as though He actually did our crime. God then punished the crime (as any good judge will do with crime) on Jesus. So when we receive Jesus into our hearts, what literally happens is our crimes are transferred onto Jesus being, and His righteousness is transferred onto our being. The crime is punished on Jesus, and we receive all His blessings and innonence.




Now God can righteously look at us, and say we are perfect. Because we are perfect in His Son. Everytime He sees us, He sees His beloved Son. (and so, we are His beloved children)

Summary: God is all powerful beyond our understanding

Contradiction no?