Hey there Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

God can righteously forgive sin

Announcements Posted on
Post on TSR and win a prize! Find out more... 10-04-2014
    • Thread Starter
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    1) god is above humanity. He can change his will if he wants and we just have to accept it. Or are you judging him based on what you would expect human values to be? I think you might just be.
    God said He hold His word above His own name. That means He obeys His word.


    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    2) This is very naive.

    Old testament: KILL, KILL, KILL EVERYONE

    http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/godkills.htm

    Killed over 130,000

    New testament: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE EVERYONE

    Still killed millions.

    I'm surprised that link didn't include the flood. Yet all of it is focused on the wrong thing. God didn't create man to die, yet man dies because we disobeyed God. God didn't just kill people, they died as the result of their sin. In the OT, it was all about love as well, but the difference is throughout the majority, the Law was main thing in operation. If someone were to break the Law, the result pretty much was death. That is why when people approached God from the Law, they died.


    So the determining factor of how God dealt with people, is how their hearts were toward Him. It's not God changing, its us changing.



    (Original post by Hypocrism)

    3) With regard to omniscience: your answer was rubbish. If god didn't know that men would sin he isn't omniscient, because he didn't know. As soon as he created the universe (beginning) he knows all its details (end).

    Are you saying we are the universe? (In terms of what most scientists think, the answer to that question would probably be yes. Yet just for the sake of the argument, we are talking about God creating us. According to Scripture, God created us apart from the universe. So our beginning was at our creation. Then there's another element with that as well)











    (Original post by Bishy786)
    But why do we need to "go through" Jesus? Why is it not sufficient just to believe in God?

    Because Jesus is our righteousness. In Jesus, we get what He deserves, and not what we deserve.


    Do you mean by saying "believe in God" as believing He exist?





    (Original post by Bishy786)

    But God "created" the devil which according to Christian dogma, is the root of evil. Therefore, it can be construed to state that God has made the devil more powerful than Jesus.


    God didn't create the devil, He created Lucifer. Lucifer of his own free will, became the devil.




    (Original post by Bishy786)
    So Jesus is in Heaven now?

    Yes




    (Original post by Bishy786)
    When was he crucified and when was he resurrected?

    He was crucified between wednesday and thursday. He rose again early sunday.




    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Could you show me the prophecy please?


    I'll do some more study on this, but you can read the verses where Jesus is talking about why He said to get the swords. Luke ch. 22 verses 35-38
    • 14 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Okashira)
    A lot of things don't make sense to us, it doesn't mean there aren't rules for things. Take the study of dark matter for instance. We don't know what it is exactly, yet we know it holds galaxies together. We don't know what dark energy is, but we believe it is helping to expand the universe. It's kind of like that with God's power. We don't know how He laid our sin upon Jesus, but we know He did it logically and righteously. He didn't break any rules, nor broke His word. (Let's say God was using a higher level of science)
    There's a difference though. Dark matter and dark energy etc. aren't things that don't make sense. They're just things that at the moment, we don't know much about. If scientists ever found that the theories of dark matter and dark energy made no sense, they'd be discarded immediately.

    Whereas the transfer of guilt isn't something that we simply don't know about. It's something that doesn't make sense. It is inconsistent with what we already understand about the universe - that when someone has already committed a crime, they've committed it, there's no changing that.
    But let's say that God can do things that don't make sense. He can make it so that actually, someone else committed my sins instead of me. Well then he should also be able to make it so that nobody committed them, because that makes just as much sense.

    Now of the things that don't make sense, you say there are some things God can do (like transferring our sins onto Jesus) and some he can't do (like transferring our sins onto nobody). But how do you determine this? How do you tell the difference between what he can and can't do?
    Normally when we conclude that something can't be done, it's because it doesn't make sense. It isn't consistent with the rules we're familiar with. But if we're saying that God can even do things which don't make sense, we've lost our ability to distinguish between what is and what isn't against the rules. We don't even know what the rules are.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Okashira)
    Technically, He could overlook crime, but He will not because He is rigtheous. We know human judges and the human court as a whole sometimes grant immunity and other things, but God knows everything, and will not make any deals come judgment day.
    god defines righteousness, if he wanted righteousness to be more in line with our natural behaviour he could change the definition. if you make the rules then you can change your reactions accordingly. he could also adjust our natural behaviour to be more in line with his definition of righteousness. i'm not saying alter freewill. just lower our testosterone levels. develop a brain that does not respond so positively to morally negative events. god is in charge yet the guy is so incompetent that he is unable to produce a congruous system between our behaviour and his will. he needs this ridiculously elaborate and disgusting system to forgive us.

    The simple truth is, we can't correct ourselves, because we are evil by nature. God's standard is perfection, that is the standard He created us with. We fell from that standard, and we can't pick ourselves up. That is why by God's grace, He extended His right hand to help us up. We have to receive His hand, and He will pull us up and set us on our feet again. To say it's abhorrent to reject God's hand, is to slap God's hand away in disgust.
    god did not invent the idea of sacrifice to wash away sin. tribes had being doing this for thousands of years prior to the new testament. they would put all of their sins onto a goat and drive the goat into the desert (giving rise to the definition of scapegoating - hitchens gives a better account of this but i can't find the video). i think it is disgusting to be that cruel to a goat, i am sure as anything going to feel disgust when it is done to a human being.


    How many of you ever tried to help an elderly man/woman (perhaps if they fell, you tried to help them up. Something like that), and they shouted at you saying "I CAN DO IT MYSELF!" ? Then you say in your mind 'Fine, I was just trying to help' and you walk off, looking back only to continue to see them struggle greatly. In a way it's like that for God when dealing with a self righteous person. He knows their condition, and yet there is nothing He can do for them because they will not receive His extended hand. It's actually infinity times worse and heartbreaking for God, because He knows where those who are proud of heart are headed.
    yes but i don't punish them for it, i also don't see it as an opportunity to proselytize them with fear of damnation. you've been conditioned to see pride as a sin. it is merely an evolutionary product that allows us to receive feedback for behavioral events. you've been taught that we are defective and the very teachers of this idea also happen to be the guys selling the medicine.
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Okashira)
    Because Jesus is our righteousness. In Jesus, we get what He deserves, and not what we deserve.
    So essentially it's a trade off. Jesus came into this world and got crucified for our sins and i return, all of our good deeds go to him?

    Do you mean by saying "believe in God" as believing He exist?
    Is there any other?

    God didn't create the devil, He created Lucifer. Lucifer of his own free will, became the devil.
    But he did create him and because he has control of everything and knows what is going to happen until the end of time, surely he could have foreseen that Lucifer would disobey him?

    Yes
    And what exactly is he doing there right now?

    He was crucified between wednesday and thursday. He rose again early sunday.
    Actually there has been debates about this where the only "certain" thing is that "he rose on Sunday". Apart from that, there are historical inaccuraces and attempts to justify the "3 days, 3 nights" scenario (Matthew 12:40). Only now, modern biblical scholars have come out and counted backwards to 3 days, 3 nights and have arrived at Wednesday/Thursday.

    Further, there are also contradictions in Mark 15:25/John 19:14 upon the time whence Jesus was taken before Pilate. How do you explain this fact away?

    I'll do some more study on this, but you can read the verses where Jesus is talking about why He said to get the swords. Luke ch. 22 verses 35-38
    He clearly wanted to make a "last stand" by the use of violence perhaps.
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Okashira)
    God said He hold His word above His own name. That means He obeys His word.





    I'm surprised that link didn't include the flood. Yet all of it is focused on the wrong thing. God didn't create man to die, yet man dies because we disobe
    Iyed God. God didn't just kill people, they died as the result of their sin. In the OT, it was all about love as well, but the difference is throughout the majority, the Law was main thing in operation. If someone were to break the Law, the result pretty much was death. That is why when people approached God from the Law, they died.


    So the determining factor of how God dealt with people, is how their hearts were toward Him. It's not God changing, its us changing.






    Are you saying we are the universe? (In terms of what most scientists think, the answer to that question would probably be yes. Yet just for the sake of the argument, we are talking about God creating us. According to Scripture, God created us apart from the universe. So our beginning was at our creation. Then there's another element with that as well)
    1) But he can also change his view of his own word / name / whatever. If he's divine and can do anything, he can do ANYTHING. That includes changing his damn mind. If theists realised this, they would see that the rules of ancient religion do not all have to apply to the modern world.

    2) It's still a contradiction. god initially preaches to kill everyone, then he preaches to turn the other cheek and whatever other nonsense he spouted. Yet he still kills people. He can't make up his mind, can he? In addition, if he hates killing so much, why make that the punishment for sin? Isn't that meant to be "hell"?

    3) As soon as the universe begins, god knows that he'll create humans. He's omniscient, he knows exactly what will happen from the moment of "beginning" and probably before. That's tautology. It's also inconsistent with human free will, god's free will or god's omnipotence. Tell me, can god create a wall that he cannot break down? Can god prevent an event that he knows is going to happen? These are incompatabilities and arguments against the existence of a deity.
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cgraham15)
    Based on the fact that the Bible was written by humans, not jesus or God. As long as you live a good life you'll be fine.
    I agree with you that the Bible was written by humans, but how do you know it wasn't written by God? Have you ever investigated the bible for yourself?

    Also, I was wondering what authority you are basing your second sentence on? How do you know that statement is true? Thanks
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Joeyboy 12)
    Ok, but how can you be sure he was his best friend? People make these assumptions without proper evidence.
    From the way Jesus behaved with his disciples. Quite often Jesus would choose Peter, James and John to accompany him and witness certain things (such as in the Garden of Gethsemane). Also in John's Gospel, he refers to himself as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' not to say Jesus loved John more than the others, but the Scriptures do seem to imply a special companionship between Jesus and John. Also John was the disciple Jesus chose to look after Mary, so John seemed to have particular responsibilities.

    (Original post by Joeyboy 12)
    I could write a biography on Drogba and name myself as his best friend, it's not true but I can still write it. Thousands of years later someone could read it and say so and so was Drogba's best pal!
    Well yes, of course anybody could say that- but just because somebody could say that doesn't make it not the case.

    (Original post by Joeyboy 12)
    And the disciples were probably killed for being seen as creating anarchy.

    If somebody said someone rose from the dead, and it was believed by people, there would be a bit of little panic in the streets. It would also make people lose faith in their ruler/rulers, as the 'resurrected' person would seem more powerful. No king or queen would want that.

    I have read parts of the bible but to be honest I found to kill a mocking bird and harry potter more engaging. To me the bible is just a book that creates to much conflict in the world.
    The disciples (11 out of 12 of them, apart from John) were killed for their claims Jesus rose from the dead and that they had seen, touched and eaten with the risen Jesus. The Bible doesn't mention how much panic was on the streets, but it definitely changed the world- you only need to read the book of Acts to see how the early church exploded onto the scene.

    As for not being engaging, the Bible says it is the only way to having eternal life (John 3:16, John 14:6) how can Harry Potter or To Kill a Mockingbird be seen as more engaging, when the Bible has such life-changing claims? As for creating too much conflict- the bible's main message is that God showed His love to us in sending Jesus to die on the cross, taking our punishment for our rebellion against God in our place. We as rebels against God can manipulate Bible teachings, but the heart of what Christians believe is profoundly about peace and love and the main application of the Bible's message is to love one another- so the Bible message is extremely anti-conflict.
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tomclarky)
    How can God be good and just when he condemns people for being gay?
    He doesn't condemn homosexual orientation- Jesus dying on the cross is for everyone who trusts in Him for salvation and God loves everyone no matter what orientation they are- so it's not true that the Bible condemns people for being gay, there are many gay Christians. However, the Bible does teach homosexual practice is sinful (rebellious against God) because it goes against God's design for marriage0 the Bible says God created marriage to be between a man and woman in marriage. But again, the Bible doesn't condemn homosexual orientation- homosexual practice is seen as no more sinful as heterosexual non-marital sex.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jmj)
    He doesn't condemn homosexual orientation- Jesus dying on the cross is for everyone who trusts in Him for salvation and God loves everyone no matter what orientation they are- so it's not true that the Bible condemns people for being gay, there are many gay Christians. However, the Bible does teach homosexual practice is sinful (rebellious against God) because it goes against God's design for marriage0 the Bible says God created marriage to be between a man and woman in marriage. But again, the Bible doesn't condemn homosexual orientation- homosexual practice is seen as no more sinful as heterosexual non-marital sex.
    Do you believe that being gay is a choice and something that people should repent from?
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bishy786)
    So murderers and rapists WILL go to Heaven if they believe in Jesus's "salvation"?
    Yes, if they trust in Jesus' salvation and repent (change from their rebellion against God to following Him) then the cross is powerful enough to sort out anyone's sin.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Does that not give a "free rein" to people to commit horrendus crimes?
    No, because the Gospel demands life-changing response. The Bible teaches we must repent and live our lives in response to what Jesus has done for us, which entails a completely different life where we try to live for God (not in order to be saved, but in response to what Jesus has already done on the cross). If people profess to trust in Jesus but carry on living just for themselves and doing whatever they like (i.e. commit

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    So Jesus was a "scrapegoat" for Human fallacy?
    In a way, yes- interestingly the 'scapegoat' is a Biblical term to do with animal sacrifices that God put in place in the Old Testament to sort out sin. There was one goat who was killed to be a sin offering (the animal dies in place of the human) and the other goat was the scapegoat was sent out into the desert, to show how sin had been dealt with and put away. However the animal sacrificial system couldn't fully deal with sin, as they had to keep making sacrifices was a picture of the even better sacrifice of Jesus once for all time. So yes, Jesus was the one to take our punishment in our place for our rebellion against God.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Can we not attain Heaven through good actions?
    No, not at all. The prophet Isaiah described our works as being 'filthy rags' none of us can earn our way into heaven. The Bible tells us nobody can be right with God apart from trusting in Jesus' death, paying the punishment of our rebellion in our place.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    What about unborn fetus's or babies who cannot comprehend words, let alone the the sacrifices of Jesus?
    The Bible doesn't specifically tell us about foetus' or babies, but the Bible does say God is good and just and merciful- so I believe God is control over their lives and will treat them rightly.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    So people of previous nations will go to Heaven even if they hadn't believed in Jesus?
    It depends- if they believed in God's promises that God would send his Messiah (special King to sort out sin) they would be made right with God through their faith in Him- Christians are people who believe Jesus is God's special King (the term 'Christ' means God's special king too in the Greek) that He had promised.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Why did "God" need to come down personally and "sacrifice himself"? Could he not just spontaneously forgive everyone if they believed in him?
    No, because sin has to be dealt with. Because God loves us, He is also just- He is so pure and perfect that He needs to sort out our sin against Him which makes us imperfect and unable to have a relationship with Him on our own. It wouldn't have been just for God to sweep our sin under a cosmic carpet and just forget about it and welcome us into heaven regardless of how we had treated Him. God needs to sort out sin for us to be friends with Him and we can't sort it out ourselves- therefore God stepped into history as Jesus Christ to sort it out Himself through His death and resurrection.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Just one other question, Does Christianity regard Adam as a Prophet of God?
    Tricky question- it depends what you mean by prophet really. I think a good definition of prophet is someone who told God's Word to the people- so God revealed His word to a specific person (the prophet) and then that prophet would tell the rest of the people what God said. Most Christians I think wouldn't consider Adam to be a prophet because he didn't have this special role- God spoke to Adam and Eve freely before they rebelled against Him.
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tomclarky)
    Do you believe that being gay is a choice and something that people should repent from?
    No, I don't believe that. I see no evidence that being gay is a 'choice'; I'm heterosexual and I can't ever remember waking up one day and choosing to be such, it's just something I've always been- so I don't know why it would be different to homosexuals. The Bible doesn't say anything about orientation and there's no evidence that having a homosexual orientation is sinful. The only thing the Bible speaks about is homosexual practice- so the bible teaches that homosexual practice is something to repent from, as God designed sex for heterosexual marriage- but homosexual orientation is not sinful. There are many homosexuals who have decided to become Christians and therefore choose to be celibate in order to live their lives according to the Bible.
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jmj)
    He doesn't condemn homosexual orientation- Jesus dying on the cross is for everyone who trusts in Him for salvation and God loves everyone no matter what orientation they are- so it's not true that the Bible condemns people for being gay, there are many gay Christians. However, the Bible does teach homosexual practice is sinful (rebellious against God) because it goes against God's design for marriage0 the Bible says God created marriage to be between a man and woman in marriage. But again, the Bible doesn't condemn homosexual orientation- homosexual practice is seen as no more sinful as heterosexual non-marital sex.
    That's even more horrible. You say it is fine for people to be attracted to the other sex, but then restrict them from carrying out the deeds associated with attraction? That might be the worst thing I've heard in my life. This is what you are proclaiming: "You are permitted to feel attracted to the same sex, but if you ever have homosexual sex, I'll keep you in hell forever."

    Imagine if your "god" said this: "It's fine for you to be attracted to the women, but you're NEVER allowed to have sex with them, ever, or you go to hell." It's like saying to a child "You're allowed to enjoy eating icecream, but if you ever eat icecream, I'll beat you and keep you in the naughty corner forever."

    The bible was written BY HUMANS. Whether divinely inspired or not, people are fallible and make mistakes. Condemning homosexuality was I'm sure normal 2000 years ago, but that doesn't mean it was "god's will" to punish thousands, millions of people for having homosexual feelings. There were plenty of things that went on in that time that weren't god's will. Humans wrote these things down in the bible as a fragment of their society's influence and I reckon god did a massive divine facepalm because they hadn't taken its inspiration properly (this is assuming god is real, a pretty big assumption). This applies to so many things in my eyes. Premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion, ... these things are condemned by christians because of the bible, while they are almost certainly only mentioned in religious text because of the culture, which was barbaric and not a basis for modern life. In fact, the immoral stances taken by society at that time may actually have been caused by the incorrect views of few the people writing christian scripture.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    Did jesus die on the cross as a man or as god?
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jmj)
    No, I don't believe that. I see no evidence that being gay is a 'choice'; I'm heterosexual and I can't ever remember waking up one day and choosing to be such, it's just something I've always been- so I don't know why it would be different to homosexuals. The Bible doesn't say anything about orientation and there's no evidence that having a homosexual orientation is sinful. The only thing the Bible speaks about is homosexual practice- so the bible teaches that homosexual practice is something to repent from, as God designed sex for heterosexual marriage- but homosexual orientation is not sinful. There are many homosexuals who have decided to become Christians and therefore choose to be celibate in order to live their lives according to the Bible.
    Why did God even create homosexual orientation then, if it means they have to go their whole lives without having sex?
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    That's even more horrible. You say it is fine for people to be attracted to the other sex, but then restrict them from carrying out the deeds associated with attraction? That might be the worst thing I've heard in my life. This is what you are proclaiming: "You are permitted to feel attracted to the same sex, but if you ever have homosexual sex, I'll keep you in hell forever."

    Imagine if your "god" said this: "It's fine for you to be attracted to the women, but you're NEVER allowed to have sex with them, ever, or you go to hell." It's like saying to a child "You're allowed to enjoy eating icecream, but if you ever eat icecream, I'll beat you and keep you in the naughty corner forever."
    That's not the same. Sex in the Bible is seen as a good gift from God, it's just the Bible says there is a specific design and purpose in sex. Also it's not the case that if they have homosexual sex, they'll be in hell forever- all they need to do is trust in Jesus' free sacrifice. It's not the case that homosexual sex is a particularly bad sin- nobody will be perfectly keeping to the bible's teaching about sex; it's no different to pre-martial sex. It's simply about enjoying God's gifts in the way He designed them to be used.

    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    The bible was written BY HUMANS[/B]. Whether divinely inspired or not, people are fallible and make mistakes. Condemning homosexuality was I'm sure normal 2000 years ago, but that doesn't mean it was "god's will" to punish thousands, millions of people for having homosexual feelings. There were plenty of things that went on in that time that weren't god's will. Humans wrote these things down in the bible as a fragment of their society's influence and I reckon god did a massive divine facepalm because they hadn't taken its inspiration properly (this is assuming god is real, a pretty big assumption). This applies to so many things in my eyes. Premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion, ... these things are condemned by christians because of the bible, while they are almost certainly only mentioned in religious text because of the culture, which was barbaric and not a basis for modern life. In fact, the immoral stances taken by society at that time may actually have been caused by the incorrect views of few the people writing christian scripture.
    I respect your view, but Christians believe the bible was Sovereignly written by God as well as the primary human authors. Christians also believe the bible, since it is God's Word, is not subject to any culture or change in times but is always applicable as God's revelation to mankind.
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tomclarky)
    Why did God even create homosexual orientation then, if it means they have to go their whole lives without having sex?
    The Bible doesn't say God created homosexual orientation. This is just my personal speculation, but since God created sex to be within heterosexual marriage, it seems logical that God didn't create homosexual orientation- I think it more likely that humanity was originally heterosexually oriented, but that homosexual orientation entered the world as a natural consequence of living in a world fractured in relationship with God and in relationship with each other. Not that homosexual orientation is 'sinful' (I already said I don't believe homosexual orientation is sinful) but that it's a natural implication of today's imperfect world. Again, please note this is just my speculation, not specific Bible truths.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jmj)
    The Bible doesn't say God created homosexual orientation. This is just my personal speculation, but since God created sex to be within heterosexual marriage, it seems logical that God didn't create homosexual orientation- I think it more likely that humanity was originally heterosexually oriented, but that homosexual orientation entered the world as a natural consequence of living in a world fractured in relationship with God and in relationship with each other. Not that homosexual orientation is 'sinful' (I already said I don't believe homosexual orientation is sinful) but that it's a natural implication of today's imperfect world. Again, please note this is just my speculation, not specific Bible truths.
    What about homosexual behaviour in animals?
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tomclarky)
    What about homosexual behaviour in animals?
    Again, the Bible doesn't specifically talk about it so not sure about that one however the bible does state that we are specifically set apart from animals because we are uniquely created in God's image (as in, something in the way we are created reflects God) so I think it's just humans that can rebel against God in their creator, although the Bible does talk about the whole universe being affected by sin. Again this is just my speculation
    • Thread Starter
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    There's a difference though. Dark matter and dark energy etc. aren't things that don't make sense. They're just things that at the moment, we don't know much about. If scientists ever found that the theories of dark matter and dark energy made no sense, they'd be discarded immediately.

    Whereas the transfer of guilt isn't something that we simply don't know about. It's something that doesn't make sense. It is inconsistent with what we already understand about the universe - that when someone has already committed a crime, they've committed it, there's no changing that.
    But let's say that God can do things that don't make sense. He can make it so that actually, someone else committed my sins instead of me. Well then he should also be able to make it so that nobody committed them, because that makes just as much sense.

    Now of the things that don't make sense, you say there are some things God can do (like transferring our sins onto Jesus) and some he can't do (like transferring our sins onto nobody). But how do you determine this? How do you tell the difference between what he can and can't do?
    Normally when we conclude that something can't be done, it's because it doesn't make sense. It isn't consistent with the rules we're familiar with. But if we're saying that God can even do things which don't make sense, we've lost our ability to distinguish between what is and what isn't against the rules. We don't even know what the rules are.




    Tell me something, how are diseases passed on from generation to generation? (For example, sickle cell anemia) Is it not through genetics? The sinful nature is a disease of sorts. Because we have it, we sin. The end result of course is death. So if the sin nature is a disease, you can certainly understand how diseases work, particularly diseases that pass on genetically.



    God did something to solve this problem, He made a cure. We must be born again, born with a nature free from sin. That is where Jesus comes in. When a person put's their faith in Him, their old nature is put to death with Jesus on the cross. Along with that nature is all of our crimes and the judgments thereof, all of it is put to death on the cross. We are essentially put to death with Jesus on the cross. Jesus is then raised again, being the new Man. Likewise when we die, we will be raised like Him, a new man. All of this is extremely consistent with what we see concerning genetics. It makes sense and is not illogical.






    (Original post by E.Blackadder)
    god defines righteousness, if he wanted righteousness to be more in line with our natural behaviour he could change the definition. if you make the rules then you can change your reactions accordingly. he could also adjust our natural behaviour to be more in line with his definition of righteousness. i'm not saying alter freewill. just lower our testosterone levels. develop a brain that does not respond so positively to morally negative events. god is in charge yet the guy is so incompetent that he is unable to produce a congruous system between our behaviour and his will. he needs this ridiculously elaborate and disgusting system to forgive us.


    Here's something you don't understand. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He's not like men who change their word at the drop of a hat. Yes God defined righteousness, and that definition isn't going to change one bit. God would be evil if He changed His word like men. Besides, if you were to consider God as existing and are asking these questions concerning Him, you must also take into fact that He created us perfect. Why don't you consider that we fell from how He originally created us? You can't argue against God unless you also take in the said history concerning Him and us. You can argue His existence, but don't argue His righteousness without considering what He said and done.





    (Original post by E.Blackadder)
    god did not invent the idea of sacrifice to wash away sin. tribes had being doing this for thousands of years prior to the new testament. they would put all of their sins onto a goat and drive the goat into the desert (giving rise to the definition of scapegoating - hitchens gives a better account of this but i can't find the video). i think it is disgusting to be that cruel to a goat, i am sure as anything going to feel disgust when it is done to a human being.


    Well, here's a history question. What is our true history, the true history of mankind?



    (Original post by E.Blackadder)
    yes but i don't punish them for it, i also don't see it as an opportunity to proselytize them with fear of damnation. you've been conditioned to see pride as a sin. it is merely an evolutionary product that allows us to receive feedback for behavioral events. you've been taught that we are defective and the very teachers of this idea also happen to be the guys selling the medicine.


    Don't you understand? Without receiving help, they punish themselves. Even nature teaches us that working together and helping one another is the best way to go. Here's God, the Creator, extending His hand. If we take it, not only will we finally know the truth to everything about our existence, but we will finally understand what it truly means to live. Nature also teaches us that evil and wrongdoing must be done away with in order for life to flourish. Even animals who travel in packs have some sort of understanding punishment for going outside the norm of the group. So crime must be punished. Only, God sent His Son to punish all crime on Him. If one doesn't receive Jesus, their crime will be punished on them.






    (Original post by Bishy786)
    So essentially it's a trade off. Jesus came into this world and got crucified for our sins and i return, all of our good deeds go to him?


    What good deeds have we done, that will cancel out all of our crime? Can a robber go free because he mowed his neighbors yard? Can a murderer go free because he fed starving children? The crimes must still be punished. So it is with us. Jesus never committed a crime, and it is His innocence that we will receive. (And look at the good Jesus did. He healed every disease, fed thousands of people with only five loaves of bread and two whole fish. He saved our souls from eternal damnation and condemnation. All in a day's work for our Lord!)





    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Is there any other?


    One is not saved by believing God exists. I believe my mom and dad exist, what does that do for me? It's about trusting in what God did for us. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I believe my dad assured my way to go backstage and meet the Coldplay band. So I can walk confidently backstage, knowing my name is on the list for those who can go backstage. In the same way, we must first acknowledge that we are sinners, then trust Jesus died for our sins and was raised again for us, to our eternal salvation. (Of course finding out God exists would be the first thing to do, but knowing He exist does nothing for us concerning our sin)




    (Original post by Bishy786)
    But he did create him and because he has control of everything and knows what is going to happen until the end of time, surely he could have foreseen that Lucifer would disobey him?


    Lucifer was a free will being. God known he could have become evil, but the choice was Lucifer's. Before Lucifer made a choice, he had two futures. One where he obeyed God, the other where he did not. The same with every free will being. Before you make a choice, you have more than one future. You decide which one. (And those choices are not made before they are made)







    (Original post by Bishy786)
    And what exactly is he doing there right now?

    Waiting for people to believe on Him to the saving of their soul. He's waiting until He can wait no longer.





    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Actually there has been debates about this where the only "certain" thing is that "he rose on Sunday". Apart from that, there are historical inaccuraces and attempts to justify the "3 days, 3 nights" scenario (Matthew 12:40). Only now, modern biblical scholars have come out and counted backwards to 3 days, 3 nights and have arrived at Wednesday/Thursday.

    Further, there are also contradictions in Mark 15:25/John 19:14 upon the time whence Jesus was taken before Pilate. How do you explain this fact away?


    Jesus was certainly crucified on the same day as the passover. On the Hebrew Calendar, their day begins at 6 pm. So Jesus and the disciples had the last supper (celebrating the passover) during the night. He was arrested not long afterward and tried in the Sandhedrin. Then He was taken to Pilate, and ultimately was crucified during the daylight hours on the same Jewish day. (Which again began at 6 pm)



    These things are difficult to make out, such as the verses you brought up because it requires knowing a great deal about how Israel operated concerning daylight hours and so on. I'm not an expert in that field, so I can't comment too much on it. Yet I will study more on this, and get back to you. I know that there were two sabbaths during this week, because I believe the Passover was consider a special Sabbath day, and then you had the weekly Sabbath. So it comes down to when the Passover took place during this time. (Which should be easy to find out)




    (Original post by Bishy786)
    He clearly wanted to make a "last stand" by the use of violence perhaps.



    If He wanted make a last stand, as in resisting His arrest, why did Jesus tell Peter to put the sword down. That those who use the sword will die by it? No, it had something to do with prophecy concerning Him.







    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    1) But he can also change his view of his own word / name / whatever. If he's divine and can do anything, he can do ANYTHING. That includes changing his damn mind. If theists realised this, they would see that the rules of ancient religion do not all have to apply to the modern world.

    2) It's still a contradiction. god initially preaches to kill everyone, then he preaches to turn the other cheek and whatever other nonsense he spouted. Yet he still kills people. He can't make up his mind, can he? In addition, if he hates killing so much, why make that the punishment for sin? Isn't that meant to be "hell"?

    3) As soon as the universe begins, god knows that he'll create humans. He's omniscient, he knows exactly what will happen from the moment of "beginning" and probably before. That's tautology. It's also inconsistent with human free will, god's free will or god's omnipotence. Tell me, can god create a wall that he cannot break down? Can god prevent an event that he knows is going to happen? These are incompatabilities and arguments against the existence of a deity.



    1. Can He do it, yes. Will He do it, no, or else He is a liar and would be a sinner, just as we are. God is not unrighteous, so He won't change. As it is written, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.



    2. When did God preach to kill everyone? As I said, those were judgments on the people. If God didn't judge those nations, they would have gone on to do horrendous crimes, something you do not acknowledge at all. In fact, say God never intervenes with what we do. We would ultimately end up killing ourselves. It's upon hearing the cry of those who are suffering, that God acted on those nations and judged them. It will be the same at the very end of this age, during the time of the Great Tribulation. The Bible says that if Jesus does not come when He finally does, no one would be alive. Yet God is the evil one for saving those who cry against these nations?




    3. Too many people have the wrong idea about who God is. We act like we know so much about God, yet the world doesn't even think He exists. We act like we know so much about omniscience, yet our definition of the word means absolutely nothing, as you mentioned it cancels everything out, including God's own free will. To point that God doesn't even move.


    Yet all in all, God does knows everything. Yet where there is nothing to know, He doesn't know. Even now, we have to make a choice concerning what we do. Depending on whatever choice we make, God knows everyhing that will happen. The catch is, until we make a choice, the only thing there is to know is we must make a choice.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jmj)
    Again, the Bible doesn't specifically talk about it so not sure about that one however the bible does state that we are specifically set apart from animals because we are uniquely created in God's image (as in, something in the way we are created reflects God) so I think it's just humans that can rebel against God in their creator, although the Bible does talk about the whole universe being affected by sin. Again this is just my speculation
    And the rest of the Bible is similarly someone else's.

Reply

Submit reply

Register

Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post
  1. this can't be left blank
    that username has been taken, please choose another Forgotten your password?

    this is what you'll be called on TSR

  2. this can't be left blank
    this email is already registered. Forgotten your password?

    never shared and never spammed

  3. this can't be left blank

    6 characters or longer with both numbers and letters is safer

  4. this can't be left empty
    your full birthday is required
  1. By completing the slider below you agree to The Student Room's terms & conditions and site rules

  2. Slide the button to the right to create your account

    Slide to join now Processing…

    You don't slide that way? No problem.

Updated: June 2, 2012
Article updates
Useful resources
Reputation gems:
You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.