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Private Schools Petition

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Got a question about Student Finance? Ask the experts this week on TSR! 14-09-2014
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Y'know, there's a famous song written by Woodie Guthrie during the Depression of the 1930s. One of the verses runs:

    As I went walking I saw a sign there
    And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
    But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
    That side was made for you and me.

    And the moral of the story is that as a multi-generational, privately-educated upper-middle-class individual you're never going to see the kinds of barriers that exist for those who are none of those things. Nor do I think you would understand them if examples were given. No one is denying that your family works hard, but I would point out that many families whose "choice" is their local comprehensive work very hard as well. Those standard defences of private education apply to the great majority of people, the great majority of families even, whose opportunities are limited where yours are not.
    I understand that many families work very hard but I think that most barriers that existed have all but disappeared. There is no longer such a barrier with top universities for example
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    (Original post by Ocassus)
    Then you acknowledge the concentration problem and that this will do NOTHING to solve it. Most of us agree that there is no 'liberty' to stab someone because it infringes upon the 'golden rule' of post-enlightenment philosophy. However it is substantially more contentious (And given the conservative majority in this country with a small 'c') that parents do not have the freedom to decide how their child is educated.




    Morals are subjective, you cannot rationalise an argument based upon them. Socially, are they that bad? Stop being so guilty of stereotyping and look around, the attitudes of individuals at the bottom can be just as bad as those at the top. Again, you cannot base an argument on victimisation. Economically is even more laughable, you take the best schools and damage them in the name of equality? So you bring down the highest performers in society to sate some silly idealistic philosophical crap that is widely acknowledged by even the staunchest leftists to have no bearing in objective fact, but instead relies on some flimsy rhetoric regarding morality.





    25% of my year alone are on bursaries (Fully funded). Another 10% are on Scholarships, sporting an academic. Herp derp.

    The teachers don't make them the best in Britain, the pupils and the parents do.



    Because there are TWO options.

    -> Have Positive culture; Have inequality.
    -> Have negative culture; Have equality.

    There is no middle way, you can't have it both ways. Two successful parents of children cannot turn an entire school around, because their voices will be infinitely suppressed by a centralised bureaucratic system based on democracy and not elitism. NOTHING WOULD CHANGE. Success is rare, but in order to have the 'cultural' effect, it must fill the majority of the ranks of a school.




    Herp derp. Millfield and Plymouth, International athletes with curriculums tailored around performance. Facilities include Private 50 meter pools, dedicated running tracks, specialised equipment and staff.
    Exeter School, Colyton - 4 A levels are standard or you are kicked out, 5 A levels pushed on all of top setters.
    You cannot do that in a state school, end of.



    As I have already said, this is a zero sum game. If the MAJORITY of kids in a school are anti social, then the prevalent culture will be to 'otherise' those who are successful, leading to bullying stress etc. The opposite happens in Private and grammar schools, where the MAJORITY of kids are used to the concepts and strive for success, leading otherisation on those who are lazy. You clearly don't know much about sociology.




    Addressed in the point above. Drop your moral bull****, that holds no sway.



    As above.

    No economic benefit attainable. Why would you not want to improve state schools so that Private schools simply vanished? Oh wait, you want to take parents who VOLUNTARY pay fees for their children, and FORCE them to pay for everybody else instead (Via higher taxes).




    Actually it is, 9000 pounds a year for the top academic day school in my county.
    Average salary is ~23K. If you can make sacrifices and live on 17K if you care that much.




    You imply that parents are going to care about the wellbeing of other pupils who don't fit with their agenda (namely make sure their kids are better than everybody else).
    The majority of state school students are not negative, you ridiculous elitist ****. It is the facilities and teaching staff that prevent them from excelling and create a culture of mediocracy instead of striving for excellence.

    23000-9000 = 14000 not 17000...
    and i think even someone who is capable of making those kind of errors can see that this income is completely unrealistic. That is the worst point I've heard on here actually. Someone earning 23,000 a year and spending 9,000 on one child. You are completely unrealistic and out of touch with reality
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    (Original post by Jammyj12)
    I understand that many families work very hard but I think that most barriers that existed have all but disappeared. There is no longer such a barrier with top universities for example
    Well then we shall have to agree to disagree.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Well then we shall have to agree to disagree.
    But I am very interested in the barriers that you say will be removed with the destruction of private schools but you haven't given any examples yet.
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    I don't support this. Untill the government proves that it's willing to put in the money and effort to raise the standard of state education I will support independent schools.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    But people don't buy private education in order to improve qualifications, in general. They pay to gain a better all-round education and, in many cases, precisely to avoid the state system's artificial concentration on passing exams at the expense of the overall education.
    Well private schools clearly fail in that respect. You're arguing that private schools provide children with better theories of learning. However, improved theories of learning would also suggest long term success as well as short-term success; however, the figures i have argued (and will reference shortly) have showed that this is not the case. This suggests that private schooling does not provide children with improved theories of learning.

    If private schools succeeded in making pupils take a deeper approach to learning, the attainment gap wouldn't exist.
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    almost half of people who went to eton in the last few are now studying or have studied at oxford or cambridge. but no we all have equal opportunities...
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    (Original post by oh_1993)
    almost half of people who went to eton in the last few are now studying or have studied at oxford or cambridge. but no we all have equal opportunities...
    The odds ratio of a private school pupil achieving a good degree (1.1/2.1) is less than a comprehensive pupil.

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    This isn't the only article stating this, actually, it seems to be quite a well known finding.

    "Type of school attended also affects student achievement, controlling for the effects of A-level/Higher level score. The results indicate that students who come to university from indipendent schools perform worse, on average, than those who attended comprehensive schools...This lends support to the idea that students from private schools have an advantage iver those from state schools in gaining admission to university because they are able to achieve higher average A-level grades for a given level of student quality. It also suggests that consideration should be given to this when formulating university admissions policy, and lends som support, at least, for policies aimed at widening participation" (p.491)

    McNabb, Pal & Sloane (2002) - Gender differences in educational attainment: The case of University students in England and Wales: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0335.00295/pdf
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    (Original post by paperclip)
    The odds ratio of a private school pupil achieving a good degree (1.1/2.1) is less than a comprehensive pupil.

    Pot. Kettle. Black.
    What does (1.1/2.1) mean?
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    (Original post by oh_1993)
    What does (1.1/2.1) mean?
    A first class degree or a high second class degree i.e. a 2.1 as you may sometimes have heard it referred to.
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    (Original post by see-are)
    The majority of state school students are not negative, you ridiculous elitist ****. It is the facilities and teaching staff that prevent them from excelling and create a culture of mediocracy instead of striving for excellence.
    The problem is that as mentioned by other people, if we abolish private schools then instead of having about 90% of our students in a 'a culture of mediocracy' we would have 100%. This petition wouldn't help to improve the standards of state schools in the slightest; it would just lower overall educational standards.


    (Original post by see-are)
    23000-9000 = 14000 not 17000...
    and i think even someone who is capable of making those kind of errors can see that this income is completely unrealistic. That is the worst point I've heard on here actually. Someone earning 23,000 a year and spending 9,000 on one child. You are completely unrealistic and out of touch with reality
    Bursaries exist in the majority of private schools for those who need it and are talented. And don't forget the education vouchers act (TSR act), which would help people on lower incomes to send their children to private school.
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    (Original post by paperclip)
    Well private schools clearly fail in that respect. You're arguing that private schools provide children with better theories of learning. However, improved theories of learning would also suggest long term success as well as short-term success; however, the figures i have argued (and will reference shortly) have showed that this is not the case. This suggests that private schooling does not provide children with improved theories of learning.

    If private schools succeeded in making pupils take a deeper approach to learning, the attainment gap wouldn't exist.
    You seem to be discounting the possibility that non-selective private schools are so improving outcomes for less able pupils that they get to university when they wouldn't had they experienced state education.

    Pupils can be viewed in three strata: (a) the obvious good degree material from selective schools, state and private, and from comprehensives (who would have gone to university even in the old days when A levels were a true preparation for university), and who will achive good outcomes at university; (b) less able candidates who can get into university in these less rigorous, expanded higher education days; (c) pupils that do not go to university.

    I would argue that the success of non-selective private schools is in doing a good job of educating those in the third group to the extent that they are brought into the second group. They may not do as well at university as those in the first group but they are at university (when they wouldn't have been had they gone to a state school), and appear to show that private schools are doing a bad job long-term, when in fact they are the true measure of those schools' success.
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    This thread is thoroughly depressing.
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    (Original post by paddy__power)
    This thread is thoroughly depressing.
    I agree - the post I read was yours Paddy
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    (Original post by RoryS)
    I agree - the post I read was yours Paddy
    I'm going to go ahead and not get involved in this argument. Idiots gna idiot

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    live in Jersey so fees for private schools are much lower but I think you have to look at all the long time advantages
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    That is complete rubbish. See my previous post. The real difference is that those at them want to be educated, those running them want to educate as effectively as possible, while those funding them want the pupils to be educated and not socially-engineered. None of this is anything to do with money or resourcing. If you fix those problems in state education the system would improve radically.
    The problem you have there is that state schools are comprehensive (in most parts of the country). Unlike private schools they have to accept everybody regardless of whether they want to learn, you can never solve your first issue with state schools. The point of a state school is to educate children that come not wanting to learn.

    Anyway, I would vote no, but purely because inequality would still be preserved throught the creation of golden halos around "good" schools probably forcing up house prices.
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    (Original post by gmseahorse)
    Unlike private schools they have to accept everybody regardless of whether they want to learn, you can never solve your first issue with state schools. The point of a state school is to educate children that come not wanting to learn.
    Of course. Poor parenting is a key issue.
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    This petition is awful and I shall be voting no.

    I'm sure someone else has pointed out but I shall do so anyway; now anyone regardless of their income stream can go to a private school thanks to our very own School Vouchers Bill which passed last term. Equality of opportunity is no longer a concern, there is no legitimate reason to get rid of fee paying schools.

    Unless you just want to get rid of private sector influence for the sake of getting rid of private sector influence, which is probably what this is about and that is a dangerous position to have.
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    NO! because as a state schooler, I want to laugh at those posh and cocky private pupils when we get better grades than them!:aetsch:

    BTW, This is not against genuine private schoolers, who are not cocky and b!tchy towards states schoolers.
Updated: April 16, 2012
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