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B426 - Securing Our Borders Bill 2012

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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Perfect. That response can help the author of this Bill to redraft it.
    I'm soooo glad you're happy. Thank you

    Edited to add: I hope you understand that I don't have a view about every Bill that goes published into MHoC. eg. Stop Tax, Period Bill - the main reason why for this bill is that I'm not a woman.

    There are others...
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    The Bill reads a bit like it was hastily penned on the back of a napkin by Nick Griffin!

    One area where I agree with the standard libertarian line is on economic immigration: we benefit from it provided it is done properly. I suspect that this "Securing Our Borders" Bill is much more an attack on letting people from different cultures settle than anything else - let me guess, does it stain the social fabric of Britain? I reckon that anyone should be able to come to Britain (provided they're not criminal!), whether they stay or not should be determined by how good a life they lead: do they integrate, do they work, do they obey the law? People should have a fair shot at living here, it's not like anyone suffers from it - I don't see any "rivers of blood", and although welfare exploitation is a problem, this Bill does not tackle it in any way, shape or form.

    As for the provision relating to asylum seekers, does the author not realise that the UK is a rich country that currently admits far fewer refugees than much poorer countries simply because we're a bit further away from the disaster zones? Part IV is inhumanitarian and frankly immoral because it completely abandons our commitments to helping others, Birchington pretty much summed it up with his earlier post.

    This Bill punishes potential immigrants and fixes none of the issues with the current immigration system. None at all. For instance, I have reservations about people that arrive in the UK and work simply to send back money back abroad, that could be remedied by letting people bring more family and prosper here. This Bill, though, imposes an arbitrary "2 children and a partner" cap (a part of the Bill that I found particularly distasteful).

    It's a no from me if this goes to division - I really cannot think of anything to build on so I don't recommend a second reading.
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    (Original post by RoryS)
    I'm soooo glad you're happy. Thank you

    Edited to add: I hope you understand that I don't have a view about every Bill that goes published into MHoC. eg. Stop Tax, Period Bill - the main reason why for this bill is that I'm not a woman.

    There are others...
    Getting involved like this will help to really get you into the swing of being an MP. For what it's worth, I think that you will be a great member of the HoC and I genuinely mean that, but throwing yourself in at the deep end will help you to see how it all works in a much better way than simply studying the theory behind how it all works will do.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Getting involved like this will help to really get you into the swing of being an MP. For what it's worth, I think that you will be a great member of the HoC and I genuinely mean that, but throwing yourself in at the deep end will help you to see how it all works in a much better way than simply studying the theory behind how it all works will do.
    I agree entirely, thanks for your advice Toronto. I'm sorry for 'lashing out' and I hope you are too.
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    (Original post by RoryS)
    I agree entirely, thanks for your advice Toronto. I'm sorry for 'lashing out' and I hope you are too.
    I never took it as such so don't worry about it. I always enjoy the sparring matches in here as much as the next guy.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I never took it as such so don't worry about it. I always enjoy the sparring matches in here as much as the next guy.
    Glad to hear it.
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    There are aspects of this which i agree with such as limiting refugees and asylum seekers who travel through multiple countries to the UK however i agree with a degree of immigration and fully support free movement of Labour within the European Union of which i believe we should remain a constituent member.

    In it's current form, i would vote No.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    There are aspects of this which i agree with such as limiting refugees and asylum seekers who travel through multiple countries to the UK however i agree with a degree of immigration and fully support free movement of Labour within the European Union of which i believe we should remain a constituent member.

    In it's current form, i would vote No.
    I am unwilling to compromise on the issue. I do not see why a person from Poland receives preferential treatment over a person from Ukraine simply because one was born in an EU country and the other was not.
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    I am unwilling to compromise on the issue. I do not see why a person from Poland receives preferential treatment over a person from Ukraine simply because one was born in an EU country and the other was not.
    Because they joined the EU......
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    I am unwilling to compromise on the issue. I do not see why a person from Poland receives preferential treatment over a person from Ukraine simply because one was born in an EU country and the other was not.
    Why do Britons get preferential treatment in Australia and New Zealand? Why do Irish citizens get preferential treatment in the United States? Why does a South African-born citizen need a visa to come to the United Kingdom when an Australian does not?

    Whether you are willing to compromise or not really is irrelevant. International agreements are such that, in this case, the individual from Poland if afforded certain rights that an individual from Ukraine is not. Your throwing a tizzy won't change that and your bill (and the prevailing attitude behind it) certainly jeopardises Britain's good relations with our European partners and many others besides.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Why do Britons get preferential treatment in Australia and New Zealand? Why do Irish citizens get preferential treatment in the United States? Why does a South African-born citizen need a visa to come to the United Kingdom when an Australian does not?

    Whether you are willing to compromise or not really is irrelevant. International agreements are such that, in this case, the individual from Poland if afforded certain rights that an individual from Ukraine is not. Your throwing a tizzy won't change that and your bill (and the prevailing attitude behind it) certainly jeopardises Britain's good relations with our European partners and many others besides.
    Because of the cultural ties and they speak the same language. We have no cultural or linguistic ties with the rest of Europe.

    Our education system does not equip our people with the ability to speak other languages unlike our European counterparts. This means Europeans can come to the UK but British people cannot leave because they cannot speak the language. This is why we should stand firm and block free movement completely, as only a small minority of people are able to actually capitalise on it.
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    Because of the cultural ties and they speak the same language. We have no cultural or linguistic ties with the rest of Europe.
    I put the issue about South Africa in there deliberately to fox this response. South Africa was a British colony and therefore has cultural and linguistic ties to Britain. Yet, we actively discriminate against South Africans...

    Our education system does not equip our people with the ability to speak other languages unlike our European counterparts. This means Europeans can come to the UK but British people cannot leave because they cannot speak the language. This is why we should stand firm and block free movement completely, as only a small minority of people are able to actually capitalise on it.
    Nonsense. My comprehensive school allowed me to learn French and German. The catholic comprehensive on the other side of town taught French and Italian and its nearby secular cousin taught French and Spanish. To claim that the education system fails to equip people with language ability is to ignore the sheer laziness of the majority. To block free movement in an effort to pander to a few Anglo-supremacists is folly. If you feel threatened by a Frenchman moving here to take your job, learn French and take one of his. If you feel threatened by a German taking your job, learn German and take one of the vacancies in Germany or Austria. Those individuals who move here have learnt a foreign language and have taken the initiative to move here to learn further and to work hard. Complaining about language is sheer laziness. Allez!
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    I put the issue about South Africa in there deliberately to fox this response. South Africa was a British colony and therefore has cultural and linguistic ties to Britain. Yet, we actively discriminate against South Africans...
    We don't share many cultural ties with South Africa. We were simply occupiers there whereas Australia etc may be of British descent as most of the natives were killed.


    Nonsense. My comprehensive school allowed me to learn French and German. The catholic comprehensive on the other side of town taught French and Italian and its nearby secular cousin taught French and Spanish. To claim that the education system fails to equip people with language ability is to ignore the sheer laziness of the majority. To block free movement in an effort to pander to a few Anglo-supremacists is folly. If you feel threatened by a Frenchman moving here to take your job, learn French and take one of his. If you feel threatened by a German taking your job, learn German and take one of the vacancies in Germany or Austria. Those individuals who move here have learnt a foreign language and have taken the initiative to move here to learn further and to work hard. Complaining about language is sheer laziness. Allez!
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    In the rest of Europe it isn't uncommon for the majority of people to speak fluently in multiple languages. In the UK it is ridiculously rare. The reason people aren't learning languages well in this country is because of the poor teaching standards/methods and the fact that nobody begins learning a language till secondary school.
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    Because of the cultural ties and they speak the same language. We have no cultural or linguistic ties with the rest of Europe.

    Our education system does not equip our people with the ability to speak other languages unlike our European counterparts. This means Europeans can come to the UK but British people cannot leave because they cannot speak the language. This is why we should stand firm and block free movement completely, as only a small minority of people are able to actually capitalise on it.
    That is a flaw in the British Education system which can be dealt with (and has already on TSR).

    As for culture, i do not see that as a big issue.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    That is a flaw in the British Education system which can be dealt with (and has already on TSR).

    As for culture, i do not see that as a big issue.
    Maybe drop art/religious studies/drama for more languages
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    We don't share many cultural ties with South Africa. We were simply occupiers there whereas Australia etc may be of British descent as most of the natives were killed.
    Right. The actual answer is because in 2009 the Home Secretary decided that too many terrorists and smugglers were travelling here on South African passports and decided that to stop it, Britain would require visas from now on.

    In the rest of Europe it isn't uncommon for the majority of people to speak fluently in multiple languages. In the UK it is ridiculously rare. The reason people aren't learning languages well in this country is because of the poor teaching standards/methods and the fact that nobody begins learning a language till secondary school.
    That's wrong. I started learning a second language the day I stepped into nursery at the age of 3. Why? Because I live in Wales. It's not uncommon for people to speak many languages in Europe because of the free movement of people and the fact that many languages are either sympathetic to each other or limited to that nation and so you have to learn another language to get on. If you speak Dutch you have two choices: stay where you are or perhaps move to Flanders or learn a second language. Many choose to learn English. It's *******s all to do with poor teaching standards or methods (that's a Daily Mailism if ever I heard one) but entirely to do with laziness and assumptions of cultural superiority. If people assume the world speaks English so we don't have to learn Spanish or Italian then more fool them.
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    In the rest of Europe it isn't uncommon for the majority of people to speak fluently in multiple languages. In the UK it is ridiculously rare. The reason people aren't learning languages well in this country is because of the poor teaching standards/methods and the fact that nobody begins learning a language till secondary school.
    Presuming that is entirely true, surely that's a call to reform the education system, not to try to block off our borders and isolate us?

    There are other factors bar "poor" education for us not learning languages too you know... Our entire culture is hardwired not to learn languages compared to some on the mainland, due to a general attidute, necessity and, of course, their consumptions of English-speaking culture (American Films, American Music etc.)
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    More control for councils and schools to create their own curriculum and choose which subjects their students can study
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    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    More control for councils and schools to create their own curriculum and choose which subjects their students can study
    No. More funding for schools so that they can actually employ staff to teach a wider curriculum. It's no good complaining that state schools don't teach languages if budgets are being cut and schools cannot afford to employ teachers to teach languages. The Right never quite get it.
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    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    Maybe drop art/religious studies/drama for more languages
    I would have to check Hansard to make sure it was not before the great repeal act but i believe a foreign language in addition to English is compulsory.

    Personally i do believe that an additional foreign language should be compulsory in RL (a choice of French, Spanish or German) with a third language being an option should somebody wish to learn Mandarin or Arabic ect...

    And yes, why any of those should be compulsory is beyond me.
Updated: April 19, 2012
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