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Are UKIP more Conservative than the Conservative party?

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  • View Poll Results: Are UKIP more Conservative then the Conservative party
    Yes
    50
    87.72%
    No
    7
    12.28%

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    In recent opinion polls, what seems to be eating up a large amount of the Conservative vote is UKIP. 1 in 10 people who voted tory will now vote UKIP, do you think that this is because of the party trying to be modern and take the centre ground?

    Many examples where UKIP could be seen more conservative is on area's such as:
    - Immigration
    - European Union
    - Armed Forces
    - NHS
    - Treatment of pensioners
    - More fiscally Conservative
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    There's no doubt that Cameron, in trying to modernise the Tories somewhat and neglecting issues like Europe and immigration and instead focusing on more progressive causes like gay marriage is alienating the kind of small c conservatives who'd normally vote for them. It likely does the party more harm than good; socially liberal voters aren't suddenly going to switch to the Conservative party just because they've adopted a couple of token progressive issues, but their traditional voters are likely to abandon them for it. Ultimately it'll probably contribute to the gradual drift of voters to smaller parties like UKIP who better represent their full gamut of political views.
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    The answer is yes and the person who said no really needs to ask themselves whether they know anything about politics or not.
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    (Original post by darksideday)
    In recent opinion polls, what seems to be eating up a large amount of the Conservative vote is UKIP. 1 in 10 people who voted tory will now vote UKIP, do you think that this is because of the party trying to be modern and take the centre ground?

    Many examples where UKIP could be seen more conservative is on area's such as:
    - Immigration
    - European Union
    - Armed Forces
    - NHS
    - Treatment of pensioners
    - More fiscally Conservative
    Eh? Centre Ground?
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    (Original post by Addzter)
    There's no doubt that Cameron, in trying to modernise the Tories somewhat and neglecting issues like Europe and immigration and instead focusing on more progressive causes like gay marriage is alienating the kind of small c conservatives who'd normally vote for them. It likely does the party more harm than good; socially liberal voters aren't suddenly going to switch to the Conservative party just because they've adopted a couple of token progressive issues, but their traditional voters are likely to abandon them for it. Ultimately it'll probably contribute to the gradual drift of voters to smaller parties like UKIP who better represent their full gamut of political views.
    Big C conservatives, I.e Social and economic conservatives (which means economically liberal, haha, damn American' terminology switching it round!), so small c conservatives would welcome gay marriage proposals and more liberal social choices. The small c conservatives would also be less europhobic than the big C'ers.

    There are a lot, a lot of social liberal voters who vote for the tories, mainly because many liberals, true liberals, are still not part of the progressive generation, meaning they are socially and economically liberal. And they place economic issues higher than social ones, since without a sound economy (this is all in theory of voters) social issues are pretty much irrelavent.

    Some have gravitated to UKIP because the tories aren't liberal enough in terms of the economy, they are kind of crony statist capitalists. On issues such as drugs, some liberals in the tory party may move to UKIP, on gay marriage, UKIP take a socailly conservative line, however, and on the EU, well, leaving the EU for more decentralised economic powers is a liberal stance, but in term of social policy, they wish to enstate more authoritarian ideas. And foriegn policy-defence-trade is a right mess, liberals, economic and social, will like their anti-iraq war, pulling out of afghanistan, not wanting to be involved with N.Africa, supporting revolution in Taiwan and Burma (not with military muscle though), but they want to massively increase defence, pay and equipment spending, which is where big C conservatives will latch on, since the "nanny state" idea contradicts social conservative ideas of military spending, hypocrites.
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    (Original post by darksideday)
    In recent opinion polls, what seems to be eating up a large amount of the Conservative vote is UKIP. 1 in 10 people who voted tory will now vote UKIP, do you think that this is because of the party trying to be modern and take the centre ground?

    Many examples where UKIP could be seen more conservative is on area's such as:
    - Immigration
    - European Union
    - Armed Forces
    - NHS
    - Treatment of pensioners
    - More fiscally Conservative
    The main group is sort of 'classical liberals'. Then there is a decent number of 'conservatives'. Then there are the 'one-nation Tory’s' - sort of quasi socialists - and the 'wets' who are similar. Then there is a 'broad church' of people with various sympathies. It is a lot less homogenous than the other party’s (e.g.- large disparity’s in views on Europe) - and UKIP is a breakaway of the Tory right who were marginalised by a party moving further and further to the centre. The party has always adapted and been more willing to change than the other parties. Hence the period 1945-75 when it was, in many ways, very socialist (consensus politics etc). However, Britain was in a bad way economically and along came Thatcherism and the Classical Liberals gradually eroded this agenda...this delivered growth and economic prosperity but, many would argue, not social wealth...hence the idea of New Labour - an acceptance that such policies were the only way to create growth/jobs, but that the human costs and inequality should be addressed through other means - read 'The Third Way'.

    Problem was, Brown didn’t really believe in 'New' Labour, and from 2002, dramatically increased state spending at unaffordable rates, hence why we had such ridiculous budget deficits come a recession in 2008 etc.

    Now, when we need to be increasing state spending to support the economy, we have no money...we have to cut (every party accepts that!) but the argument is, how hard and how fast...
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    Big C conservatives, I.e Social and economic conservatives (which means economically liberal, haha, damn American' terminology switching it round!), so small c conservatives would welcome gay marriage proposals and more liberal social choices. The small c conservatives would also be less europhobic than the big C'ers.
    That's not what small-c and big-c means at all.
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    Big C conservatives, I.e Social and economic conservatives (which means economically liberal, haha, damn American' terminology switching it round!), so small c conservatives would welcome gay marriage proposals and more liberal social choices. The small c conservatives would also be less europhobic than the big C'ers.

    There are a lot, a lot of social liberal voters who vote for the tories, mainly because many liberals, true liberals, are still not part of the progressive generation, meaning they are socially and economically liberal. And they place economic issues higher than social ones, since without a sound economy (this is all in theory of voters) social issues are pretty much irrelavent.

    Some have gravitated to UKIP because the tories aren't liberal enough in terms of the economy, they are kind of crony statist capitalists. On issues such as drugs, some liberals in the tory party may move to UKIP, on gay marriage, UKIP take a socailly conservative line, however, and on the EU, well, leaving the EU for more decentralised economic powers is a liberal stance, but in term of social policy, they wish to enstate more authoritarian ideas. And foriegn policy-defence-trade is a right mess, liberals, economic and social, will like their anti-iraq war, pulling out of afghanistan, not wanting to be involved with N.Africa, supporting revolution in Taiwan and Burma (not with military muscle though), but they want to massively increase defence, pay and equipment spending, which is where big C conservatives will latch on, since the "nanny state" idea contradicts social conservative ideas of military spending, hypocrites.
    good answer!
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    (Original post by darksideday)
    In recent opinion polls, what seems to be eating up a large amount of the Conservative vote is UKIP. 1 in 10 people who voted tory will now vote UKIP, do you think that this is because of the party trying to be modern and take the centre ground?

    Many examples where UKIP could be seen more conservative is on area's such as:
    - Immigration
    - European Union
    - Armed Forces
    - NHS
    - Treatment of pensioners
    - More fiscally Conservative
    Well there's no denying UKIP is a right-wing party, but what do you mean by "conservative" on treatment of pensioners - is that a good or a bad thing?
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    UKIP are the party the Conservatives could have been if they hadn't saddled themselves with an almost slavish adherence to political correctness. UKIPers don't feel the need to pander to the Guardianistas and this freedom is drawing support from all sections of the right as well as those on the left who oppose the EU.
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    The Conservative party was like that under Iain Duncan Smith and to an extent Hague as well, some of the purists might like it but they can forget winning an election if they go down that road.

    It's the equivalent of the lefties in the Labour party who go on about recapturing the "true" Labour party going back to where they were in 1983, looking at withdrawal from the EU, renationalisation, large scale intervention in the economy etc, there would be a lot of support amongst unions and grassroots Labour MPs for that.

    David Cameron will get called a sell out and pandering to the centre by some in his party just like Tony Blair did but they were more in touch with the general electorate. If you want a purist then sure go with guys like Iain Duncan Smith or Michael Foot in Labour, and stay in opposition.

    UKIP will not get any seats in parliament (their best chance was for the Lib Dems to get their way over PR but the country decided that FPTP is here to stay), however if they nudge their share of the vote up to 9%-10% then they will damage the Conservative party because it's not like they are going to rob votes from the unions, students, lefties and pc do-gooders etc that vote for Labour, they will take traditional Conservative votes away.

    I think the Conservatives will win an outright majority in the next election as the Lib Dems will fall away, but despite Ed Miliband being a rank average leader of Labour, the election is going to be close and I would be surprised if the Tories have a majority of more than about 30, which will make Cameron's second term very difficult like Major's was.
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    (Original post by darksideday)
    In recent opinion polls, what seems to be eating up a large amount of the Conservative vote is UKIP. 1 in 10 people who voted tory will now vote UKIP, do you think that this is because of the party trying to be modern and take the centre ground?

    Many examples where UKIP could be seen more conservative is on area's such as:
    - Immigration
    - European Union
    - Armed Forces
    - NHS
    - Treatment of pensioners
    - More fiscally Conservative
    More interestingly, if Thatcher was still an active politician, would she have defected to UKIP? As people have said the current Conservative Party has somewhat abandoned Euroscepticism in favour of moving towards the centre-ground.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    The Conservative party was like that under Iain Duncan Smith and to an extent Hague as well, some of the purists might like it but they can forget winning an election if they go down that road.

    It's the equivalent of the lefties in the Labour party who go on about recapturing the "true" Labour party going back to where they were in 1983, looking at withdrawal from the EU, renationalisation, large scale intervention in the economy etc, there would be a lot of support amongst unions and grassroots Labour MPs for that.

    David Cameron will get called a sell out and pandering to the centre by some in his party just like Tony Blair did but they were more in touch with the general electorate. If you want a purist then sure go with guys like Iain Duncan Smith or Michael Foot in Labour, and stay in opposition.

    UKIP will not get any seats in parliament (their best chance was for the Lib Dems to get their way over PR but the country decided that FPTP is here to stay), however if they nudge their share of the vote up to 9%-10% then they will damage the Conservative party because it's not like they are going to rob votes from the unions, students, lefties and pc do-gooders etc that vote for Labour, they will take traditional Conservative votes away.

    I think the Conservatives will win an outright majority in the next election as the Lib Dems will fall away, but despite Ed Miliband being a rank average leader of Labour, the election is going to be close and I would be surprised if the Tories have a majority of more than about 30, which will make Cameron's second term very difficult like Major's was.
    What about Mrs T? She was a right-wing purist who managed to stay in office for over a decade and her ideological commitments weren't seen as a weakness by anyone other than the militant left. Indeed, the average working man benefitted enormously under the Thatcher privatisations so most of the electorate have fond memories of her type of purism.

    It wasn't really a move to the centre that allowed the Conservatives to win the last general election it was Cameron's Guardianista pandering that allowed him to lose to the most unpopular party and PM in living memory. A spectacular own goal. A simple 'cast iron' guarantee on an EU referendum would have secured victory for the Conservatives in 2010 but instead he concerned himself with triffling issues such as a pledge to uphold Labour's national minimum wage, a sure vote loser when the time is ripe for a bit of straightforward decision making over things that matter, i.e ghastly purism.

    As UKIP are now generally recognised as the UK's 4 largest party we have good reason to believe that our brand of purism is translating into electoral success. The public have grown tired of the failed consensual politics of the Big Three and a party like UKIP is there to offer the electorate something different.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    What about Mrs T? She was a right-wing purist who managed to stay in office for over a decade and her ideological commitments weren't seen as a weakness by anyone other than the militant left. Indeed, the average working man benefitted enormously under the Thatcher privatisations so most of the electorate have fond memories of her type of purism.

    It wasn't really a move to the centre that allowed the Conservatives to win the last general election it was Cameron's Guardianista pandering that allowed him to lose to the most unpopular party and PM in living memory. A spectacular own goal. A simple 'cast iron' guarantee on an EU referendum would have secured victory for the Conservatives in 2010 but instead he concerned himself with triffling issues such as a pledge to uphold Labour's national minimum wage, a sure vote loser when the time is ripe for a bit of straightforward decision making over things that matter.

    As UKIP are now generally recognised as the UK's 4 largest party we have good reason to believe that our brand of purism is translating into electoral success. The public have grown tired of the failed consensual politics of the Big Three and a party like UKIP is there to offer the electorate something different.
    Where do you think Maggie would stand in the next elections? Would she remain loyal to the Conservative Party or make the move to UKIP which would undoubtedly be seen as more ideologically pure and akin to Thatcherism?
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    (Original post by youngtory)
    Where do you think Maggie would stand in the next elections? Would she remain loyal to the Conservative Party or make the move to UKIP which would undoubtedly be seen as more ideologically pure and akin to Thatcherism?
    It's hard to say really as UKIP's size presents an obvious barrier to entry, but perhaps if she was 18/19 and had to make a choice I'd like to think she'd opt for UKIP simply because they've given theselves the right to speak freely on issues of substance. Thatcher was never one to be constrained by PC dogma, but while the Tories have gone to extraordinary measures to 'de-toxify' this heritage UKIP have embraced it to great success. I'd like to think UKIP are just more than a party of neo-Thatcherites and dissatisfied Conservatives though, there's a genuine libertarian element that sets them apart from what has come before.
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    Depends how you define Conservative. The big or small c is quite important. The Tories have pretty much always been the party of business, and quite a lot of businesses quite like the EU. You could say that UKIP are more small-c, but in terms of what the Tories have traditionally stood for, the Tories are still more big-C.
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    (Original post by youngtory)
    More interestingly, if Thatcher was still an active politician, would she have defected to UKIP? As people have said the current Conservative Party has somewhat abandoned Euroscepticism in favour of moving towards the centre-ground.
    Interestingly she did help UKIP at the 2010 general election when they had Lord Pearson as leader.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/al...-party-morale/
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    Big C conservatives, I.e Social and economic conservatives (which means economically liberal, haha, damn American' terminology switching it round!), so small c conservatives would welcome gay marriage proposals and more liberal social choices. The small c conservatives would also be less europhobic than the big C'ers.
    Whoa, what? Do you pay any attention to the way people use language in everyday life or just spout incomprehensible technical babble and think you're somehow more 'correct' than the rest of us?

    What's conservative about supporting radical social change instigated by the state?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Depends how you define Conservative. The big or small c is quite important. The Tories have pretty much always been the party of business, and quite a lot of businesses quite like the EU. You could say that UKIP are more small-c, but in terms of what the Tories have traditionally stood for, the Tories are still more big-C.
    Isn't Big C just if you support the Conservative party, whereas small c is where you have conservative views in general but don't necessarily support the Conservative party? That's what I thought anyway
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    (Original post by AkaJetson)
    Isn't Big C just if you support the Conservative party, whereas small c is where you have conservative views in general but don't necessarily support the Conservative party? That's what I thought anyway
    Essentially yes. The Conservative Party has generally moved with its business backers to what they've wanted for most of its history. The only long period of time where they didn't was when Blair came onto the scene and NuLab became the party of business, sort of leaving the Tories a bit lost until they elected Cameron.

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