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Girls: Pole Dancing?

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    (Original post by Alexedcoms)
    It depends on your definition of them, but yes.
    Are you sure you're male?

    But seriously, you say you're a feminist but then you say you want to put millions of women out of a job. Niiiiice logic...
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    (Original post by Alexedcoms)
    It depends on your definition of them, but yes.
    this is getting silly now. Are you going to ban chippendale shows as well? How about women's beach volleyball? We all know why that gets such a big crowd.
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    (Original post by goape)
    That's ridiculous. Objectification of women is a fact of life and is human nature, you're not going even remotely stop it by banning them, you'll just push it underground and in the process physically endanger the women who continue to do it, relative to when it is was legal. Now that would be degrading to women. It's degrading to women to tell them that they can't partake in strip club activities if they want to.
    Yes objectification of women (and men) is a fact of life and human nature. There is a difference though between it happening naturally under non degrogatory circumstance and supporting it happening in a commericial arena purely for profiteering where cash is king and derogatory comments are wide spread. I therefore think government institutes should not support it, let alone wider society even if we currently tolerate it. You would not allow a racist show so why would you allow a sexest show?

    Banning strip clubs would vastly get rid of the majority of them bar a few of the real seedy ones. I think your arguement to pushing it under ground is justified under prostitution but not with strip clubs as there has never been a huge issue with them, although because of recent laws they were allowed to become a lot more wide spread.
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    (Original post by Alexedcoms)
    Yes objectification of women (and men) is a fact of life and human nature. There is a difference though between it happening naturally under non degrogatory circumstance and supporting it happening in a commericial arena purely for profiteering where cash is king and derogatory comments are wide spread. I therefore think government institutes should not support it, let alone wider society even if we currently tolerate it. You would not allow a racist show so why would you allow a sexest show?

    Banning strip clubs would vastly get rid of the majority of them bar a few of the real seedy ones. I think your arguement to pushing it under ground is justified under prostitution but not with strip clubs as there has never been a huge issue with them, although because of recent laws they were allowed to become a lot more wide spread.
    I think someone needs a lapdance.
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    @ py0alb thats why I asked goape about his defintion of strip/lap dancing club etc. No I wouldn't ban the chippendales because it is a show, I also wouldn't ban the moulin rouge as the main emphasis isn't on sexual gratification is just a bit blue.

    @imy millions of women out of a job? I doubt there is a million girls in the uk and usa combined getting anywhere near 1 million. There are other jobs out there they can get they just probably see it as easy cash. If you are talking world wide then do you think the girls in all these countries enjoy the same liberties that we enjoy in the western world and are not just resorting to it out of need. I'm sure there is nothing more a thai women loves doing than jirrating around a pole and get all over total strangers that she doesn't find attractive what so ever just to feed her family...

    Bringing this back to the original point despite pole dancing in universities is a long cry from this... this is what it represents.
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    (Original post by Alexedcoms)
    @ py0alb thats why I asked goape about his defintion of strip/lap dancing club etc. No I wouldn't ban the chippendales because it is a show, I also wouldn't ban the moulin rouge as the main emphasis isn't on sexual gratification is just a bit blue.

    @imy millions of women out of a job? I doubt there is a million girls in the uk and usa combined getting anywhere near 1 million. There are other jobs out there they can get they just probably see it as easy cash. If you are talking world wide then do you think the girls in all these countries enjoy the same liberties that we enjoy in the western world and are not just resorting to it out of need. I'm sure there is nothing more a thai women loves doing than jirrating around a pole and get all over total strangers that she doesn't find attractive what so ever just to feed her family...

    Bringing this back to the original point despite pole dancing in universities is a long cry from this... this is what it represents.

    Well you might think that, but the one time I asked a stripper what she had wanted to be when she was a kid (don't ask me why I asked this), she answered, "a stripper of course".

    So there ya go. She had the job of her dreams.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    Well you might think that, but the one time I asked a stripper what she had wanted to be when she was a kid (don't ask me why I asked this), she answered, "a stripper of course".

    So there ya go. She had the job of her dreams.
    I love the commitment, reliability and the depth of your research. It's a tough job but someone has to conduct this research, but was she also trying to sit on your lap for money when she said this? hehe
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    (Original post by Alexedcoms)
    There are other jobs out there
    Or sometimes not, given the current economy..
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    Whichever way you look at it, it's kind of slaggy.
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    (Original post by Alexedcoms)
    I love the commitment, reliability and the depth of your research. It's a tough job but someone has to conduct this research, but was she also trying to sit on your lap for money when she said this? hehe
    Well, no she was sitting next to me putting her clothes back on. Thats always the awkward bit where you have to make conversation.

    /or so my friend told me
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    (Original post by Village Whisper)
    Why is it pointless though? What about the personal satisfaction of knowing you can do something well? There are many singers, for example, who might take lessons and practice and become amazing at it. They don't all then enter The X Factor or whatever just because they're good. They might be housewives with children, with the voice of Whitney Houston. Why can't that be enough, if they're happy? That's what I don't get. You could train to be an incredible pole dancer, but that doesn't mean you then have to enter world-class competitions. It's not a waste of effort if the person is happy with themselves and what they can do.
    Well thats a bit nieve i think as anyone with that sort of talent would want to show it imo. I agree that u can just do sporty/fitness activities for fun as many people do but pole dancing? At least if you were good at something else and competed it wouldn't involve grinding a pole half naked.

    I think fitness hobbies are great as i myself enjoy going to the gym but i just cant see the point of pole dancing unless your fine with being a bit slutty and taking part in comps and shows

    Just thought id point out that i don't think every girl who pole dances sleeps around
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    I'm not having a moral debate, you are.

    I'm not judging, you are.

    I'm saying "don't judge". In fact I've said that like 100 times, and you continue to disagree with me when I say that. Hence you're the judgemental bigot here, not me.
    What exactly am I judging when I say it's none of your business what these women do in their free time, and it's not at all sexual unless the context makes it sexual? Clearly you've misunderstood my posts quite considerably, or you're just offended that people will do things without your say-so which displeases your ego.

    All I have seen from you is trying to persuade people who disagree with you to go over to your line of thinking. You're having a debate on morality, if you don't think you are then it's probably best you stop because you haven't contributed anything relevant to the OP's question.

    It's always great when your best comeback is "I'm not, you are!" Just shows how weak your points are. You've effectively said "I'm not judging, but it's still sexual" which is on par with saying "No offence, but you're ugly".
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    (Original post by DWC)
    Well thats a bit nieve i think as anyone with that sort of talent would want to show it imo. I agree that u can just do sporty/fitness activities for fun as many people do but pole dancing? At least if you were good at something else and competed it wouldn't involve grinding a pole half naked.

    I think fitness hobbies are great as i myself enjoy going to the gym but i just cant see the point of pole dancing unless your fine with being a bit slutty and taking part in comps and shows

    Just thought id point out that i don't think every girl who pole dances sleeps around
    I don't think it's naive at all, not everyone wants to be famous (in the case of the singer) or become a professional at whatever it is that they can do. Why can't they just enjoying singing for the sake of it?

    And why can you not do pole dancing for fun, why is it completely separate from every other fitness activity? I shall repeat again that pole dancing does not always include grinding; you should watch the video I posted a while back (someone else did too, I forget who). Even ignoring that, what about other provocative dance styles like the Argentine Tango or even belly dancing? They don't always involve a lot of clothing; what's the difference? With the tango there are two people dancing incredibly close together in front of other people, with belly dancing the dancer is performing for their audience. So they both involve other people, like pole dancing, and what many people would consider to be provocative moves. In fact, I'd say the pole dancer in the video I posted is less provocative than many tango/belly-dancers.

    I don't get why it's pointless to know how to pole dance without competing/performing. How is it different to having any other skill but not using it other than privately?
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    (Original post by Village Whisper)
    I don't think it's naive at all, not everyone wants to be famous (in the case of the singer) or become a professional at whatever it is that they can do. Why can't they just enjoying singing for the sake of it?

    And why can you not do pole dancing for fun, why is it completely separate from every other fitness activity? I shall repeat again that pole dancing does not always include grinding; you should watch the video I posted a while back (someone else did too, I forget who). Even ignoring that, what about other provocative dance styles like the Argentine Tango or even belly dancing? They don't always involve a lot of clothing; what's the difference? With the tango there are two people dancing incredibly close together in front of other people, with belly dancing the dancer is performing for their audience. So they both involve other people, like pole dancing, and what many people would consider to be provocative moves. In fact, I'd say the pole dancer in the video I posted is less provocative than many tango/belly-dancers.

    I don't get why it's pointless to know how to pole dance without competing/performing. How is it different to having any other skill but not using it other than privately?
    Hang on, so if Whitney Houstons' voice was given to 1 million women how many of them wouldn't use it to go pro do you think?

    I think your missing my point/opinion and the overall point. My point/opinion is that of course you can pole dance for fun like any other physical activity but it has less purpose if you wouldn't enter a comp even if you were good at it.

    The overall point i am making is that no matter how you sugar coat it, what you compare it to, howits taught whatever, IT IS sexually provocative and gives the IMPRESSION that the girl is a bit slutty NOT SAYING SHE IS.

    And like i said before that is not going to change in our lifetimes!
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    (Original post by catjaum)
    they obviously suck at quality control....
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    (Original post by DWC)
    Hang on, so if Whitney Houstons' voice was given to 1 million women how many of them wouldn't use it to go pro do you think?

    I think your missing my point/opinion and the overall point. My point/opinion is that of course you can pole dance for fun like any other physical activity but it has less purpose if you wouldn't enter a comp even if you were good at it.

    The overall point i am making is that no matter how you sugar coat it, what you compare it to, howits taught whatever, IT IS sexually provocative and gives the IMPRESSION that the girl is a bit slutty NOT SAYING SHE IS.

    And like i said before that is not going to change in our lifetimes!
    Of course a lot of them would try to get famous with it, but my point is that a lot of them also wouldn't. It can be just a hobby.

    If your point was that it has "less purpose", then you didn't express it very well what with comments about grinding against a pole and saying if you don't compete "the whole effort is pointless". I completely agree that it has less purpose if you're not going to compete, but that doesn't mean it has no purpose which is what you seemed to be saying. An additional purpose to being a hobby is of course fitness, as well, which is a pretty good reason for wanting to do it (no matter how many other ways of getting fit there are).

    I also completely agree with SpicyStrawberry, in that it's the context that makes it sexual. Whether it's interpreted as provocative depends on the people watching! If it's a group of straight girls watching another girl doing a pole routine, they're not going to think it is, whereas a group of straight men watching the same girl might think otherwise. It's down to opinion, you can't just label all pole dancing as provocative and say "that's that". Same goes for the slutty thing.
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    (Original post by Village Whisper)
    I don't think it's naive at all, not everyone wants to be famous (in the case of the singer) or become a professional at whatever it is that they can do. Why can't they just enjoying singing for the sake of it?

    And why can you not do pole dancing for fun, why is it completely separate from every other fitness activity? I shall repeat again that pole dancing does not always include grinding; you should watch the video I posted a while back (someone else did too, I forget who). Even ignoring that, what about other provocative dance styles like the Argentine Tango or even belly dancing? They don't always involve a lot of clothing; what's the difference? With the tango there are two people dancing incredibly close together in front of other people, with belly dancing the dancer is performing for their audience. So they both involve other people, like pole dancing, and what many people would consider to be provocative moves. In fact, I'd say the pole dancer in the video I posted is less provocative than many tango/belly-dancers.

    I don't get why it's pointless to know how to pole dance without competing/performing. How is it different to having any other skill but not using it other than privately?
    You're totally right! It's pretty bizarre how so many people are against pole dancing for leisure just because it's sexually provocative, yet, like you pointed out, there are many other dance styles out there that are just as sexy! In fact, how is pole dancing in a studio any worse than a woman dancing sexily in a nightclub in order to attract male attention? And whilst we're on the topic, I really don't even really understand why people see it worse for a woman to be paid to do something sexual with a stranger (whether it's stripping, exotic dancing or prostitution), yet there are many women who give it all to anyone for free (ONS etc) and suddenly it's all fine and dandy :rolleyes:. The double standards of some people is astounding.
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    (Original post by CherryCherryBoomBoom)
    You're totally right! It's pretty bizarre how so many people are against pole dancing for leisure just because it's sexually provocative, yet, like you pointed out, there are many other dance styles out there that are just as sexy! In fact, how is pole dancing in a studio any worse than a woman dancing sexily in a nightclub in order to attract male attention? And whilst we're on the topic, I really don't even really understand why people see it worse for a woman to be paid to do something sexual with a stranger (whether it's stripping, exotic dancing or prostitution), yet there are many women who give it all to anyone for free (ONS etc) and suddenly it's all fine and dandy :rolleyes:. The double standards of some people is astounding.
    because the other forms of dancing although provocative (which is not the issue) are not stigmatised with the sex industry.

    The dancing in nightclubs and giving it out for free is again not attached to the sex industry and is mutually free will/attraction as opposed to a business deal.

    It's nothing to do with it being sexual or the act in itself per se, just all the issue that come along with it, which you can't deny are there.
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    (Original post by Village Whisper)
    Of course a lot of them would try to get famous with it, but my point is that a lot of them also wouldn't. It can be just a hobby.

    If your point was that it has "less purpose", then you didn't express it very well what with comments about grinding against a pole and saying if you don't compete "the whole effort is pointless". I completely agree that it has less purpose if you're not going to compete, but that doesn't mean it has no purpose which is what you seemed to be saying. An additional purpose to being a hobby is of course fitness, as well, which is a pretty good reason for wanting to do it (no matter how many other ways of getting fit there are).

    I also completely agree with SpicyStrawberry, in that it's the context that makes it sexual. Whether it's interpreted as provocative depends on the people watching! If it's a group of straight girls watching another girl doing a pole routine, they're not going to think it is, whereas a group of straight men watching the same girl might think otherwise. It's down to opinion, you can't just label all pole dancing as provocative and say "that's that". Same goes for the slutty thing.
    Firstly i liked the way you dodged answering my question :P you say a lot would and a lot wouldn't which means what exactly??

    To clarify i am looking at it from a completely logical perspective. Its hard to see the keeping fit attraction when the other numerous keep fit activites are considerably better but thats purely my view. I will give you that as it depends on what you find fun and working your way round a gym is not for everyone.

    On the provocative/slutty point im of the opinion that pole dancing of all things can be labeled that and "that IS that". I mean come on back to thinking logically, i think its the general consensus! 1. How many men do you think would approve of his long term partner being a pole dancer? 2. How many women over 40 would agree with pole dancing? 3. How many religious people do you think agree with pole dancing (e.g traditional christians and muslims)? etc etc

    Furthermore this also makes the context point weak. I mean the only context you can use is a normal traing session in front of straight girls?! Rule out doing it in front of men, gay women, strong religious people and possibly a lot over traditonal women over 40 and your not left with much!

    Without needing to say too much on this point, i will just point out that there is a vast diffrence between wiggling your belly and doing the splits while sliding down a pole upside down! I mean imagine 1 day your daughter asks you if she should take up belly dancing or pole dancing, what would you say?

    At the end of the day it is what it is. I just don't see why people are trying to put beans in a soup can when its still beans! Its sort of like cocaine being glorified into a fashinable drug, when at the end of the day it can destroy lives like all other illegal drugs.

    Lastly, believe it or not im not even that bothered and am all for it!. I am just merely stating what i feel is fact. So go have fun, be active, keep fit and whether you like or not, look very sexy while doing it! :P
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    (Original post by DWC)
    Firstly i liked the way you dodged answering my question :P you say a lot would and a lot wouldn't which means what exactly??

    To clarify i am looking at it from a completely logical perspective. Its hard to see the keeping fit attraction when the other numerous keep fit activites are considerably better but thats purely my view. I will give you that as it depends on what you find fun and working your way round a gym is not for everyone.

    On the provocative/slutty point im of the opinion that pole dancing of all things can be labeled that and "that IS that". I mean come on back to thinking logically, i think its the general consensus! 1. How many men do you think would approve of his long term partner being a pole dancer? 2. How many women over 40 would agree with pole dancing? 3. How many religious people do you think agree with pole dancing (e.g traditional christians and muslims)? etc etc

    Furthermore this also makes the context point weak. I mean the only context you can use is a normal traing session in front of straight girls?! Rule out doing it in front of men, gay women, strong religious people and possibly a lot over traditonal women over 40 and your not left with much!

    Without needing to say too much on this point, i will just point out that there is a vast diffrence between wiggling your belly and doing the splits while sliding down a pole upside down! I mean imagine 1 day your daughter asks you if she should take up belly dancing or pole dancing, what would you say?

    At the end of the day it is what it is. I just don't see why people are trying to put beans in a soup can when its still beans! Its sort of like cocaine being glorified into a fashinable drug, when at the end of the day it can destroy lives like all other illegal drugs.

    Lastly, believe it or not im not even that bothered and am all for it!. I am just merely stating what i feel is fact. So go have fun, be active, keep fit and whether you like or not, look very sexy while doing it! :P
    I hadn't planned on posting in this thread again since I've already wasted enough time on it, but since you replied I will too. For anyone else reading this, please don't bother trying to debate it with me again, because I really can't be bothered

    Right, well, first of all I hadn't meant to dodge your question at all. I thought I answered it, but I guess it probably wasn't that clear. Well, what I mean is that it's possible that 50% would try to go pro, but the other 50% wouldn't want to/try. It might be weighted more in either direction, but the point still stands that however many people try to go further with their talent, there will always be people who are happy leaving it as a hobby. So, it is not true that people with a high level of talent will want to show it (which was your original point) in the sense that they want to perform, compete or go pro. Of course, that doesn't stop them from using their talent privately, like in training sessions, their homes etc.

    As for the provocative/slutty aspect, I don't think there's much point in me arguing against that again because some people are always going to have that opinion, whether it's the general consensus or the minority. It's interesting about the religious point though, as someone posted a while back about "Pole Dancing for Jesus" which is run by a Christian lady in America. If you Google it, you'll see that each member is required to bring their Bible with them for entry and they use "contemporary Christian music".

    I disagree about the context bit though. Close friends of the dancer are unlikely (though yeah, it's possible) to see them as provocative/slutty; they're more likely to be focusing on their strength and technical ability. Family would be the same, I'd think.

    Also, I don't think there's a vast difference, especially when you just take it as it is: someone literally doing the splits, which is hard to do, and going down a pole upside down, which is also hard to do. If you ignore the connotations, that is (which is essentially what this whole debate is about). If you Youtube belly dancing, there's also a lot more to it than just wiggling. I think belly dancing was also created to be provocative, too, but whatever. I don't really know what I'd say to my daughter, I think it would depend on whether by that time I'd done pole dancing and believed that the physical fitness and fun of it really did outweigh the negative perception of other people (which might well have changed by then).

    I'm not too sure about comparing pole dancing to cocaine, since it can't kill you? But anyway, whatever. If I wasn't before, I am now fully aware of the opinions of TSR, and I will keep them in mind (maybe) if I decide to join the society (which again, people, was my original question)

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