[Darth Stewie]

(Original post by y-y)
but if they are quranists, surely they would agree with the stoning/lashing/killing/being against gay people seeing as it is in the quran
I dont get it, do they pick and choose?

They believe in lashings for fornicators or adulterers as per the Quran but the stoning of adulterers under Sharia law comes from the Sunnah so they reject it.

Humans punishing gay people is purely a non quranic thing, the Quran pretty much says their punishment will be handled by their god so Quranists don't think it's their place to punish homosexuals although i would imagine many disagree with it.

[I Persia I]

(Original post by y-y)
but if they are quranists, surely they would agree with the stoning/lashing/killing seeing as it is in the quran
I dont get it, do they pick and choose?

There's no verse on stoning...

[Leon Trotsky]

(Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
It seems like one of the biggest problems in Muslimdom is Muslims spending the majority of their time telling others just who is and isn't a Muslim. I'm not saying that it's definitionless, but there's something to be said about just how quick the majority of modern Muslims are to declare someone a 'heretic' for not following the exact and particular protocol of Islam that they follow.

Really? That's one of the biggest problems in "Muslimdom?"

[squishy123]

(Original post by Darth Stewie)
Their version of the SHAHADAH is "no god but god" (which is in the Quran) rather than the Sunni "no god but God, Muhammad is His Prophet" (second part comes from non Quran sources) as for Salah it differs per Quranist, most pray twice i believe and they don't believe Friday prayers are obligatory.

I wonder how they perform their prayer seeing as it's not in the Quran and how they only pray two as opposed to five and where they got the impression that Friday prayers are not obligatory because I can assure you, those aspects are certainly NOT in the Quran.

I like them more than a lot of other sects of Islam because they tend to be more open and reject a lot of the less desirable aspects such as stoning, killing apostates and punishing people for being gay but there are still a number of aspects that i disagree with but not a muslim so wont vote

Funny because following the Prophet Muhammad, as recorded by the Hadiths, is obligatory and even more so for the Quranists.

4:37 - What comes to you of good is from Allah , but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.

4:38 - He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.

[Baddream]

(Original post by translucent)
A question to a Muslim/anyone knowledgeable on Islam.

I don't get it? why did god purposefully not include how to pray in the quran... god is all knowing,all powerful so he would know 1400 years later Islam would still be present. It's one of the five pillars of islam surely it would be wise to include it in the quran?

I don't think there's a strict way of praying. With the conventional view, you have to stand in a specific way, bow down in a specific way, put your hands somewhere specific, which I think is just unnecessary. God didn't include it because as long as you're bowing down to him, I don't think he won't not accept your prayers. But that's just my opinion.

[musabjilani]

I think the Hadith are a vital tool for interpreting the Qur'an, because the Qur'an paints in broad strokes while the Prophet's (pbuh) example fills in the details, and also because the Qur'an isn't unequivocal on every point, so we need guidance on how to interpret its dictates. We can talk about what exact lessons can -- or should -- be taken from the Hadith, and to what extent to follow them literally and when to understand that certain things might no longer be applicable or be in need of amendment, but to abandon the Hadith in their entirety would deprive you of a lot of much needed interpretive guidance, potentially crippling your ability to practice Islam at all because you can't deduce the frequency or style of prayer, or fasting, or zakat, or pretty much any core practice of Islam without looking at the practice of the Prophet (pbuh).

To me, insisting that every dictate of the Hadith be literally and eternally applicable and abandoning them entirely are both extremes to stay away from. Imo we should try to find the optimal middle path which allows us to derive useful lessons from the Hadith while also enabling us to be flexible enough to drive progress in society (or at least keep up with it).

[y-y]

(Original post by Baddream)
Nope, I'm pretty sure they finished collecting it after 200 years. Maybe they started 90 years later, but either way, if someone was to come 90 years after your death and recollect the moments of your life, how accurate do you think they would be?

Also, regarding 'chinese whispers', that's basically what the hadiths are. A lot of the men that collected those stories about Muhammad weren't alive during his time, so ultimately, isn't it just what they've heard/what's been passed down?

yes but many hadiths in different books are the same hadiths because the chain of narration hasn't been altered
some hadiths are fabricated like the one that said aisha was married to the Prophet when he went on the Mi'raj when they obviously weren't until the migration to Madinah

[Baddream]

(Original post by musabjilani)
I think the Hadith are a vital tool for interpreting the Qur'an, because the Qur'an paints in broad strokes while the Prophet's (pbuh) example fills in the details, and also because the Qur'an isn't unequivocal on every point, so we need guidance on how to interpret its dictates. We can talk about what exact lessons can -- or should -- be taken from the Hadith, and to what extent to follow them literally and when to understand that certain things might no longer be applicable or be in need of amendment, but to abandon the Hadith in their entirety would deprive you of a lot of much needed interpretive guidance, potentially crippling your ability to practice Islam at all because you can't deduce the frequency or style of prayer, or fasting, or zakat, or pretty much any core practice of Islam without looking at the practice of the Prophet (pbuh).

To me, insisting that every dictate of the Hadith be literally and eternally applicable and abandoning them entirely are both extremes to stay away from. Imo we should try to find the optimal middle path which allows us to derive useful lessons from the Hadith while also enabling us to be flexible enough to drive progress in society (or at least keep up with it).

Yes, I agree. I think some are authentic, but the problem is that deciding which ones to follow or not are basically what causes problems in Islam. If we follow the Quran solely, I'm pretty sure there'd be less extremism/ severe punishments, etc.

[Baddream]

There's so much problems regarding the hadith i.e. which to believe/which not to believe. Allah never said there'd be sources sent down to guide us after the Quran. Instead, He said:

[18:27] You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it.

[Quran 6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.


[Quran 12:106] The majority of those who believe in God do not do so without committing idol worship. -- Those that include the Prophet in the shahadah even though it is Allah alone that we should be worshipping.

[Quran 25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."

[squishy123]

(Original post by Baddream)
The shahadah is quoted in the Quran. I'll get back to you with the verse and surah, but don't you think it's a bit weird to include the prophet's name in it? Why should we include Muhammad's name, but not Moses, Jesus, Abraham or any other prophet when the Quran says to not make any distinction between the prophets?
"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, to them He will grant their rewards." (4:152)

Because Muhammad was the actual one who brought the message of Islam as we know it today. In reciting his name within the Shahadah, we reaffirm that it is only in the message that HE bought from Allah via Arch-Angel Gabriel that we believe in as opposed to the distortions made by the followers of the other prophets.

Further, with the Shahadah the way it is, we subconsciously remember that it was ALLAH and not Muhammad who composed the Quran and we do not attempt to iconise or worship him but that we recognise him ONLY as a messenger.

[Darth Stewie]

(Original post by squishy123)
I wonder how they perform their prayer seeing as it's not in the Quran and how they only pray two as opposed to five and where they got the impression that Friday prayers are not obligatory because I can assure you, those aspects are certainly NOT in the Quran.

The Salat Al-Fajr and Salat Al-Isha are mentioned by name in the Quran (also seems the midday prayer is) apparently they incorporate all their prayers into those two, as for how the prayers actually go or where they learn to do it you would have to ask a Quranist.

Funny because following the Prophet Muhammad, as recorded by the Hadiths, is obligatory and even more so for the Quranists.

4:37 - What comes to you of good is from Allah , but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.

4:38 - He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.

They believe the Hadiths are unreliable, according to them all they need to follow their religion is in the Quran, from those two passages alone i can kinda see their point. How do you know what you are following in the Hadiths is real and not a product of someone who lied over a thousand years ago for their own gain? Better to be safe than sorry.

[squishy123]

(Original post by translucent)
A question to a Muslim/anyone knowledgeable on Islam.

I don't get it? why did god purposefully not include how to pray in the quran... god is all knowing,all powerful so he would know 1400 years later Islam would still be present. It's one of the five pillars of islam surely it would be wise to include it in the quran?

The Quran contains a broad overview. For the in-depth analysis, we look to the Prophet Muhammad's actions, duly recorded in the Hadiths, for specifics.

As Islam contains social-political-economic-military elements, it would be unfeasible to present them in one book as people would just grow bored reading it. The Quran was sent to be read by the everyday man and contained very broad outlines.

[Baddream]

(Original post by squishy123)
Because Muhammad was the actual one who brought the message of Islam as we know it today. In reciting his name within the Shahadah, we reaffirm that it is only in the message that HE bought from Allah via Arch-Angel Gabriel that we believe in as opposed to the distortions made by the followers of the other prophets.

Further, with the Shahadah the way it is, we subconsciously remember that it was ALLAH and not Muhammad who composed the Quran and we do not attempt to iconise or worship him but that we recognise him ONLY as a messenger.

Why do we need to subconsciously need to remember that, why not consciously? When we say it out loud, including his name in the same confirmation as Allah's. that's almost associating partners with him. We are here to worship God alone. If you worship Allah, then you will obviously recognise Muhammed, why do you need to reaffirm that? That's a basic principle if you believe in Allah.

I'm just going to repeat my quote from above:
[Quran 12:106] The majority of those who believe in God do not do so without committing idol worship.

[translucent]

(Original post by Baddream)
I don't think there's a strict way of praying. With the conventional view, you have to stand in a specific way, bow down in a specific way, put your hands somewhere specific, which I think is just unnecessary. God didn't include it because as long as you're bowing down to him, I don't think he won't not accept your prayers. But that's just my opinion.

I've done a bit of research and the quran does actually tell you how to pray, and wudu. It's a lot simpler than how the hadiths put it. It's pretty spiritual, there are no strict guidelines. In my eyes, if the hadiths are accurate the prophet is disobeying god, why would he invent his own praying ritual? he's been given simple instructions, and as a prophet he should follow them.

Muslims should follow the teachings of the quran, not the teaching of teaching of the prophet! thanks to hadiths Islam is easily misinterpreted, Mohammed married a 9 year old is from the hadiths, "the best women ride camels" is from the hadiths - that's the saying of mohammed btw.

[Baddream]

(Original post by squishy123)
The Quran contains a broad overview. For the in-depth analysis, we look to the Prophet Muhammad's actions, duly recorded in the Hadiths, for specifics.

As Islam contains social-political-economic-military elements, it would be unfeasible to present them in one book as people would just grow bored reading it. The Quran was sent to be read by the everyday man and contained very broad outlines.

[Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?

Why do we need more than one book when God has already sent down the Quran "fully detailed"?

[Issy123]

I don't think any person has the right to call Quranists non-muslims, because at the end of the day, they're not insulting any part of Islam.

However, i don't understand why Quranists follow the Hadith because we have always been told to follow Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the Sunnah.

[Reform]

(Original post by Darth Stewie)
Their version of the SHAHADAH is "no god but god" (which is in the Quran) rather than the Sunni "no god but God, Muhammad is His Prophet" (second part comes from non Quran sources) as for Salah it differs per Quranist, most pray twice i believe and they don't believe Friday prayers are obligatory.

I like them more than a lot of other sects of Islam because they tend to be more open and reject a lot of the less desirable aspects such as stoning, killing apostates and punishing people for being gay but there are still a number of aspects that i disagree with but not a muslim so wont vote

No, they would have the same version of the shahada. Friday prayers are obligatory on every Muslim because it is mentioned in the Quran.

'O you who have believed, when [the adhan] is called for the prayer on the day of Jumu'ah [Friday], then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew.'

I'm not a Quranist though and I reject the stance they take.

[Issy123]

(Original post by mel0n)
Someone already said it - how would you even know how to pray if you don't follow ahadith? Isn't being a Quranist a bit self-contradictory considering the fact that the Qur'an states on multiple occasions (correct me if I'm wrong) to follow the way and the sunnah of the holy prophet pbuh - how exactly does a Quranist go about doing that if they aren't willing to consider hadiths?

Often there are less contradictions than an individual thinks and sometimes it is down to the person's own understanding.

Agreed.

[translucent]

(Original post by squishy123)
The Quran contains a broad overview. For the in-depth analysis, we look to the Prophet Muhammad's actions, duly recorded in the Hadiths, for specifics.

As Islam contains social-political-economic-military elements, it would be unfeasible to present them in one book as people would just grow bored reading it. The Quran was sent to be read by the everyday man and contained very broad outlines.

Maybe god purposefully made it broad to not suffocate people with all the strict guidelines?

[G8D]

People seem to be getting caught up in the fact they "wouldn't know how to pray"...

What if there isn't a definitive way that one is meant to pray