[jayne.corr]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Please show me your great classical Arabic skills that you've spent your whole life trying to learn to be able to interpret and understand years of Islamic history and scripture?

If you can't, then YOU and Scholars definitly interpet things differently for a reason.

People spend a 1/3 of their life learning Classical Arabic, and then 2/3's learning hadith and end up saying in regret; "If only I had spent 2/3's learning classical arabic, that I may have a better understanding of hadith".

Then we have people like you who read a couple of english translations, not knowing its meaning, it's context or anything and make judgements like "these hadiths are weird".

Quranists have been refuted time and time again, take a read here and try to answer these questions - http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/qu...l_responses_to

The Qur'an is the product given to mankind, from this product we can know what Allah(swt) wants mankind to do to be amongst the rightoues and go into paradise.

However, no product comes without a manual, some kind of "how to use this product" script. So what sense would it be for Allah(swt) to give us the product, but not the instructions manual? There isn't any, that's why we have the product (Qur'an) and the instructions (Hadith) which tells us how to use this product.

''It is not for a Believer, man or Women, when Allah and His Messeger have decreed a matter that they should have any opsion in thier decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messefnger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error. {Qur'an 33:36}

why would god create such a goddamn difficult and complicated religion?

surely, being god and all, he could've created simple rules that everyone understands.

[Leon Trotsky]

(Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
Europeans seem to have gotten the picture. After centuries of bloody rivalry and continuous wars - Europe has founded a union based on shared humanity with a view to mutual prosperity. There is no reason why such a shift in Islamic attitudes can be attained. Though I'd like to see what your experience of the Islamic community is, it doesn't seem like you attain your authority on the subject anywhere but from thin air.

Really? You're using Europe as an example of people of differing beliefs, ideologies and backgrounds getting along well? In the 20th Century alone there was the Cold War, the Troubles in Ireland, the genocide of Bosnian Muslims, the Armenian genocide, a civil war in Spain, Basque separatist terrorism, race riots, the Holocaust, etc, etc. Even in the 21st Century we've had terrorism (both home-grown Islamic and nationalist/separatist) and wars, and many of the problems of the 20th Century have carried over. Just now I was watching the trial of the guy who killed 77 people in Norway because he despised multiculturalism.

I think it's naive of you to suggest that just because many of the sovereign states of Europe have formed the EU that the continent is a veritable paradise free of trouble. The current relative state of peace in Europe is likely due to the fact we're far more economically developed than most of the rest of the world and the differences between countries are becoming ever more blurred because of the globalised world that we live in, not because of some continent-wide effort to foster good relations and encourage people to forget their differences that magically succeeded.

I'm not sure why you want me to prove my Islamic credentials to you. I'm not a Muslim, nor do I come from a Muslim background, if that's what you're asking. I'm not even saying that this inability to get on well with other sects is something unique to Islam anyway (although its insular nature and its adherents' tendency to follow its holy texts to the letter do exacerbate things somewhat).

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by jayne.corr)
why would god create such a goddamn difficult and complicated religion?

surely, being god and all, he could've created simple rules that everyone understands.

He did create simple rules that everyone can understand. Just because it is easy to understand, doesn't mean people have to follow them.

There's simple enough laws in any nation, yet people still steal, commit murder, do drugs and so on.

[mariachi]

(Original post by jayne.corr)
why would god create such a goddamn difficult and complicated religion?

surely, being god and all, he could've created simple rules that everyone understands.

Life is a test, dear friend

God actually enjoys testing us : for this reason he revealed his Holy text in a language like classical Arabic , which, at the time, was written without vowels (consonants only) and even some of the consonants were written alike (before the diacritical points were added).

However, this text (Quran) is supposed to be, letter by letter, the word of God.

Truly, life is a test.... and God is watching carefully: if we get it wrong, it's hellfire for us - where our skin will be scorched, and new skin will grow so that better we can continue being tortured....

and God is compassionate, mercyful

[jayne.corr]

(Original post by mariachi)
Life is a test, dear friend

God actually enjoys testing us : for this reason he revealed his Holy text in a language like classical Arabic , which, at the time, was written without vowels (consonants only) and even some of the consonants were written alike (before the diacritical points were added).

However, this text (Quran) is supposed to be, letter by letter, the word of God.

Truly, life is a test.... and God is watching carefully: if we get it wrong, it's hellfire for us - where our skin will be scorched, and new skin will grow so that better we can continue being tortured....

and God is compassionate, mercyful

god is one sadistic guy, sorta like that clown out of the SAW films

[Tfaska]

The Quran teaches us to obey Allah and to obey his messenger. Islam is submission to God, on his terms not on our terms. We can't reject something because we don't really like it, instead we hear and we obey, that is what Islam is.

And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty. 59:7
And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy. 3:132

Can I ask you to listen to this video from 1:00 to 10:00 as well as the last five minutes of this video here.
If you want a more in-depth discussion of hadith, how it was collected and classified, I would suggest Chapter 3 (p78) of this book.

May Allah guide us all.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Tfaska)
The Quran teaches us to obey Allah and to obey his messenger. Islam is submission to God, on his terms not on our terms. We can't reject something because we don't really like it, instead we hear and we obey, that is what Islam is.

Yep

Befehl ist Befehl, Herr Obersturmbannfuehrer

[Ayshizzle]

The majority vote on this poll is a bit disturbing. Strange coming from adherents of a religion which teaches its' followers not to be judgemental...

[squishy123]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
The majority vote on this poll is a bit disturbing. Strange coming from adherents of a religion which teaches its' followers not to be judgemental...

My way or the highway, I'm afraid...

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by squishy123)
My way or the highway, I'm afraid...

Sorry, I'm confused?

[grizzletheconquerer]

I think those who voted that Quranists are not muslims need a reality check. I'm not a a Quranist. A muslim is defined as someone who believes the shahada. The Qur'an, by-and-large, states the main fundamentals. However the hadiths exist to keep the Qur'an in proper context. Those who reject one or the other can become dangerous people who can do dangerous things.

Hadiths also create a basis for rules. It gives us reason to follow the rules. Like precedence in courts of English law.

[squishy123]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
Sorry, I'm confused?

It's either mainstream Islam (4 madhabs etc) or you're not a Muslim. Common psychology of Muslims worldwide.

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by squishy123)
It's either mainstream Islam (4 madhabs etc) or you're not a Muslim. Common psychology of Muslims worldwide.

Doesn't make it right...

[Dirac Delta Function]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
The majority vote on this poll is a bit disturbing. Strange coming from adherents of a religion which teaches its' followers not to be judgemental...

Islam, are you serious? It's highly sectarian in nature.

[squishy123]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
Doesn't make it right...

Does disregarding the Hadiths claiming fabrication and inconsistency "make it right"?

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
Islam, are you serious? It's highly sectarian in nature.

This is true, but they shouldn't be really.

(Original post by squishy123)
Does disregarding the Hadiths claiming fabrication and inconsistency "make it right"?

In some cases there has been inconsistency?

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
In some cases there has been inconsistency?

Not really. Most Quranist do not understand or carry out indepth research on what Hadith Science really is, and how the reliability of a hadith is formed.

Every single hadith is scrutinized, analysed, looked into great detail before any conclusions are derived.

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth. - Bernard Lewis, Islam In History (Open Court Publishing, 1993), pp.104-105

[ak137]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
The majority vote on this poll is a bit disturbing. Strange coming from adherents of a religion which teaches its' followers not to be judgemental...

You do realise non muslims are voting in the poll as well lol.

(Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
Islam, are you serious? It's highly sectarian in nature.

Lol sectarian? What are you even talking about? Islam is Islam.

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by ak137)
You do realise non muslims are voting in the poll as well lol.

Yeah, but I didn't think non- Muslims would judge Quranists as being non- Muslims. Maybe I'm wrong

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Not really. Most Quranist do not understand or carry out indepth research on what Hadith Science really is, and how the reliability of a hadith is formed.

Sorry but how do you know this?

Every single hadith is scrutinized, analysed, looked into great detail before any conclusions are derived.

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth. - Bernard Lewis, Islam In History (Open Court Publishing, 1993), pp.104-105

So, you are saying that there can be no faults found with them at all?

[Dirac Delta Function]

(Original post by ak137)
You do realise non muslims are voting in the poll as well lol.



Lol sectarian? What are you even talking about? Islam is Islam.

Yes, and it's sectarian. It's hostile to people of religions/sects different to it.