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Is anyone else disappointed by declining standards in spoken English in Britain?

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Original post by madders94

EDIT: However I do think you could have picked a better example to complain about. I haven't noticed it very much with the BBC and I've never had a problem understanding Naomi Grimley - the examples you pointed out are more examples of the effect of accent rather than the irritating trend many young people have of cutting out words, making up their own words (WTF is a bredrin?) and so on.

'brethren' has been used for 800 or more years in this country as a plural of 'brother' - now mainly in religious senses. 'brethren' -> 'bredrin' is hardly a huge leap in not-far-shy of a millennium, but read 'brethren' in an accent that pronounces 'three' as 'tree' and you're pretty much there. Interestingly, what was a plural is often treated in this form as the singular, and widely re-pluralised as 'bredrins'.

Not to pick on you personally, and apologies if I've misread the intentions of your question, but people (especially people interested in language) might find it far more rewarding to ask these types of questions earnestly, with a view at the answer - rather than just as a dismissal. (What the **** is WTF? :wink: )
Original post by Bonged.
pfft. my grandma brings all the boys to the yard. :tongue:
And if your mother hadn't acquired that trait, you wouldn't have been born.



Bye.
Reply 142
Original post by whyumadtho
And if your mother hadn't acquired that trait, you wouldn't have been born.



Bye.


Hayo!

Someone get this guy up on stage!
Reply 143
I don't mind at all that BBC newsreaders can speak with dialects, and I'm perfectly happy for the language to evolve.

BUT ... I am a bit wistful about RP. I love old-fashioned accents.



****ing beautiful.
Reply 144
Original post by clareyyyyyyy
The ancient "their they're there" debate never ceases to amaze me.... People, it's not hard!
Also people who can't tell the difference between "could of" and "could have" and the difference between "less" and "fewer". I was in a supermarket the other day and they'd managed to use less in place of fewer on a rather large sign. Nice one!
'Less' was long used for countable nouns before the introduction of this Modern English mumbo jumbo. Why should supermarkets obey your whimsical preference for modern fads?

You young people need learn some bloody Old English, that's what. Schools these days teach such modern rubbish. :no:
Reply 145
Original post by The Lyceum
Dear OP,

Phonological differences occur, deal with. Secondly I'd be much more worried over syntax if I were you.

" Is anyone else disappointed by declining standards in spoken English in Britain?"

Really ought to be declining standard (note singular) of spoken English etc. (note genitive construction).

Your usage of the plural and a locative construction is the kind of colloquialism you apparently detest, no?

You're not a linguist, you're not the arbiter of the English tongue.

Shocking.


:teehee:
Reply 146
Original post by Foo.mp3
anunciation


background/ethnicity are often correlates where proper pronounciation are concerned in society at large


This is one thing that concerns me, and the BBC doing as it's doing is only going to increase the probability of such things happening.


ad nauseam


You'll be pleased to hear that I'm composing a stern missive to TSR's editorial body as we speak.
Reply 147
Original post by The Lyceum

That's another thing, "your language" the language is spoken by several million people, what gives you the right to arbitrate? On what criteria? solely on what you feel is correct? Your title already demonstrates your poor grasp of the tongue, your following posts serve only to reinforce this perception.

Yes, by you're own admission you're not a linguist, what then gives you the balls to be so damn sure? And why, by the Queen's hairy ball sack, do you honestly think being 27 when coming across as a self important pseudo-intellectual uninformed brat is a good thing?

Feel free to re-iterate your nonsense, strewn with poorly spelled Italicisms, misc speak like "Problem?" and ample use of the Borat emoticon once more. :rolleyes:

P.S: If I annoy you that much, feel free to write a letter about it. :colone:


Exactly.

And his reply was just :blah:

Original post by Mendeleev's Table
I do love how OP avoided this


Exactly. When I read it, it was again another :blah:

Profesh quoted him on his you-know-what :rolleyes: Lets see how he sleezes his way out of that :wink:
Original post by HJFSS
Help help they're speaking differently from me! Ban this sick filth!

Also the video you linked was perfectly legible and I had no trouble understanding what she was saying.


communication has served its purpose! :smile: Anyways,
OP I agree partially:smile: The standard of the English language HAS declined, especially among the youths of the present and it is shame to see:frown:
but what do you expect when you're called a geek for using words such as 'for instance', 'with all due respect' , 'exemplary' etc

(I'm not a native English speaker, but it is clear there is a problem)
(edited 12 years ago)
World's longest quote ^
Original post by gemnomnom
My God. I think you need to take a little more of a sympathetic approach, and if that is too much for you: at least try not to make sweeping generalisations. =/


Firstly, I am speaking through my experience. I know a couple of Indians and they can speak good English. However, their accents make it so hard to understand. Not necessarily a fall in standards, but with ever more immigrants entering the country, then communication difficulties because of accents or dialects is going to become a larger problem I think. That then makes it a fall in standards, if language is the sole purpose of communication.

I am also fairly opinionated, and sympathy/subtelry is not a strong point of mine!! How good or bad this is I will leave you to decide. I dont care either way.
I couldn't agree with you more. It's an absolute shame to hear this. I'm shocked. Well...on second thoughts, no I'm not shocked - I was expecting this sort of thing to happen sooner or later under current circumstances.
Nothing surprises me anymore in a nation bowing down to political correctness, where positive discrimination is more essential than common sense.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 152
Original post by Foo.mp3
It's bad enough hardly hearing an English word on a trip through parts of your home city (London), or, when you do hear it, it's spoken in "this language which is wholly false, which is this jamaican patois that's been intruded in England. This is why so many of us have this sense of literally a foreign country" (Starkey, 2011). Hearing it start to 'intrude' on the BBC is, for me, still more disquieting..

Here is a letter of complaint I've just sent to them:

Having once been a bastion for proper English it seems that the BBC is now so keen to demonstrate diversity that it actually risks contributing to the decline in standards in spoken English in the 21st century.

I was watching the BBC Weekend News, the national news mind, and was disappointed to hear the reporter, Naomi Grimley, pronouncing several words as one might expect a slang-speaking South London schoolgirl to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17720269

The words: “Independent” and “effect” end in a ‘T’, “Labour” is not pronounced ‘LAYBA’, and “ever” is not pronounced ‘EVA’.

This sort of thing is not congruent with the rich and exemplary tradition of the BBC in this domain, and I think that (news) program producers need to take a view on this. Positive discrimination/equal opportunity are all well and good, but the number one priority must surely be high standards and a high quality of service?


Does anyone else agree that this sort of thing is a shame/concerning, or is this fundamentally unimportant in modern Britain?

Where do we draw the line between comedy RP newsreader accents of the early 20th century and having people who wouldn't sound out of place in Kidulthood reading the news?

(would be handy to state your own standard of English/cultural background in posting, for context e.g. my spoken English is decent and I'm from a white, middle class/suburban North London background)


English is a living language. It is also a democratic language. Unlike French, which has the Acadamie francaise regulating what counts as proper French, (although nowadays it spends most of its time trying to keep French's purity from anglicisms), English is always changing and evolving. The English spoken today will probably be unrecognisable from that spoken in 200 years.

I don't like my language changing and becoming 'corrupt' with incorrect grammar or pronunciation, but that's the way it's always been. I just wonder whether the English spoken in America, Canada, Australia etc will be the same in a few hundred years as the English spoken in Britain.
it's not like language is a static thing, it evolves over time. What we consider "proper" english now is only proper english because it's been around ages.
OP, you have too much time on your hands.
Reply 155
Original post by Profesh
You'll be pleased to hear that I'm composing a stern missive to TSR's editorial body as we speak.
Standards really have declined you see. Such crap wouldn't have been tolerated under my modship. IPs would have been banned and cricket-bat-armed educators dispatched.
Reply 156
I worry more about the standard of written English than spoken English.
As a 3rd generation Jamaican immigrant from the middle class and South East London, I would like to congratulate you on being a racist, classist, elitist idiot.

Allow me to elaborate. You have quoted a blatant racist, David Starkey, in your OP as a basis for argument. Great start. You have then continued to declaring the best use for a Jamaican accent is for "relaxed ting and ting", playing on negative racial stereotypes about Jamaicans. If you want to have an open conversation with a group, don't patronise or degrade them. (Perhaps if England didn't want to have to mix with these dirty, horrible, language degenerating people, they shouldn't have begged them to come over in a time of economic hardship. Or enslaved them in the first place. Either way!)

The proper name for people like you in Jamaica is a " bloodclart ". Now, in case you wish to actually listen and learn something today, that means you are a bloodclot. As in, a plague or a burden. You're idiocy and hypocrisy is killing me.

Hipocracy? Yes. You've stated you hate the shortening of words and then gone on to use contractions such as "don't". Where do you stand on these deviations of the English language?

Now, to classism and elitism! Glorifying the language of the upper classes and criminalising the language of the working classes is a common trick use to glorify and criminalise each class respectively.

Lastly, well, I think the idiot part is self-explanatory :wink: If you don't like idiot, try "slubberdegullion" or "fopdoodle"! They may get a squiggly red line underneath them in Microsoft Word, but I assure you, they're words in the good old Johnsonian dictionary - the first ever comprehensive English dictionary :smile: Along with "gibberish", "rompo" and a racist definition of "oats". Man, I sure do miss the good old days!!

In summary, no, I do not lose sleep over the natural evolution of the English language, though I do take issue with ignorance :wink:
Reply 158
Original post by Kolya
Language standards change over time.

Such change is labelled as a 'decline' because some people have a vested interest in the continuation of earlier standards. For example f one has a prestige dialect then one's interests are served by defending perceptions of that dialect.


The vested interest was shared by many of all classes. The class system, to some extent, actually significantly protected the more tradtional parts of the working and lower middle classes, in work, morals and culture. When the 'new middle class' expanded so much with not necessarily the same values of the old middle class , it affected morals and culture. The new middle class were often happy to act like chavs with money, only without the exciting, authentic, backdrop of the 80s/90s music scene to give it reference.

To parts of the working classes who spoke very properly, RP alone could have a reassuring solidity. It even gave the false impression that the BBC was not becoming increasingly left wing from the 60s onwards.
But Britain still had vestiges of the 'older' way of being right up until grey Major came in to power.
I understood that clip fine :/

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