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Is anyone else disappointed by declining standards in spoken English in Britain?
It's bad enough hardly hearing an English word on a trip through parts of your home city (London), or, when you do hear it, it's spoken in "this language which is wholly false, which is this jamaican patois that's been intruded in England. This is why so many of us have this sense of literally a foreign country" (Starkey, 2011). Hearing it start to 'intrude' on the BBC is, for me, still more disquieting..
Here is a letter of complaint I've just sent to them:
Having once been a bastion for proper English it seems that the BBC is now so keen to demonstrate diversity that it actually risks contributing to the decline in standards in spoken English in the 21st century.
I was watching the BBC Weekend News, the national news mind, and was disappointed to hear the reporter, Naomi Grimley, pronouncing several words as one might expect a slang-speaking South London schoolgirl to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17720269
The words: “Independent” and “effect” end in a ‘T’, “Labour” is not pronounced ‘LAYBA’, and “ever” is not pronounced ‘EVA’.
This sort of thing is not congruent with the rich and exemplary tradition of the BBC in this domain, and I think that (news) program producers need to take a view on this. Positive discrimination/equal opportunity are all well and good, but the number one priority must surely be high standards and a high quality of service?
Does anyone else agree that this sort of thing is a shame/concerning, or is this fundamentally unimportant in modern Britain?
Where do we draw the line between comedy RP newsreader accents of the early 20th century and having people who wouldn't sound out of place in Kidulthood reading the news?
(would be handy to state your own standard of English/cultural background in posting, for context e.g. my spoken English is decent and I'm from a white, middle class/suburban North London background)
Here is a letter of complaint I've just sent to them:
Having once been a bastion for proper English it seems that the BBC is now so keen to demonstrate diversity that it actually risks contributing to the decline in standards in spoken English in the 21st century.
I was watching the BBC Weekend News, the national news mind, and was disappointed to hear the reporter, Naomi Grimley, pronouncing several words as one might expect a slang-speaking South London schoolgirl to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17720269
The words: “Independent” and “effect” end in a ‘T’, “Labour” is not pronounced ‘LAYBA’, and “ever” is not pronounced ‘EVA’.
This sort of thing is not congruent with the rich and exemplary tradition of the BBC in this domain, and I think that (news) program producers need to take a view on this. Positive discrimination/equal opportunity are all well and good, but the number one priority must surely be high standards and a high quality of service?
Does anyone else agree that this sort of thing is a shame/concerning, or is this fundamentally unimportant in modern Britain?
Where do we draw the line between comedy RP newsreader accents of the early 20th century and having people who wouldn't sound out of place in Kidulthood reading the news?
(would be handy to state your own standard of English/cultural background in posting, for context e.g. my spoken English is decent and I'm from a white, middle class/suburban North London background)
(edited 5 years ago)
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Did you seriously send that to the BBC? 
How would you like reporters on the BBC to speak? Are regional accents alright with you? Or is it just the way black people speak that annoys you?
How would you like reporters on the BBC to speak? Are regional accents alright with you? Or is it just the way black people speak that annoys you?
Fluent English speaker, it's my joint first language.
I hate hearing how the English language has been ruined by mainly young people who seem to think it's "cool" to bastardize it and change it to sound however they want it to sound, particularly when it's so incorrect. If you genuinely have this accent, fine, but in some people - mainly white youths in the cities - you can tell that it is so forced because, although they are indigenous people to this country, that is not an indigenous accent.
It's no wonder the media portrays us all as being stupid, when the ones who get the most media attention are the ones who can't speak properly and do sound like illiterate idiots. It wouldn't surprise me if, before long, rather than trying to remedy this, the government will bring out educational material in this mish-mash made up language, claiming that it is the evolution of the English language.
EDIT: However I do think you could have picked a better example to complain about. I haven't noticed it very much with the BBC and I've never had a problem understanding Naomi Grimley - the examples you pointed out are more examples of the effect of accent rather than the irritating trend many young people have of cutting out words, making up their own words (WTF is a bredrin?) and so on.
I hate hearing how the English language has been ruined by mainly young people who seem to think it's "cool" to bastardize it and change it to sound however they want it to sound, particularly when it's so incorrect. If you genuinely have this accent, fine, but in some people - mainly white youths in the cities - you can tell that it is so forced because, although they are indigenous people to this country, that is not an indigenous accent.
It's no wonder the media portrays us all as being stupid, when the ones who get the most media attention are the ones who can't speak properly and do sound like illiterate idiots. It wouldn't surprise me if, before long, rather than trying to remedy this, the government will bring out educational material in this mish-mash made up language, claiming that it is the evolution of the English language.
EDIT: However I do think you could have picked a better example to complain about. I haven't noticed it very much with the BBC and I've never had a problem understanding Naomi Grimley - the examples you pointed out are more examples of the effect of accent rather than the irritating trend many young people have of cutting out words, making up their own words (WTF is a bredrin?) and so on.
(edited 12 years ago)
Hear hear. I find it amusing that it is now deemed unacceptable to find a certain shift in language unpleasant, whereas the same stigma is not put upon the dislike of certain fashion trends, modern architecture or modern art.
More worrying still is the acceptance of the bias against Recieved Pronounciation, to the extent that some politicians take 'coarsening training' to remove the posher elements of their speech.
Personally, I could listen to this man all day:
More worrying still is the acceptance of the bias against Recieved Pronounciation, to the extent that some politicians take 'coarsening training' to remove the posher elements of their speech.
Personally, I could listen to this man all day:
So you're the person who sends those letters!
I couldn't find the Ned Flanders video.
And I echo Kolya.
I couldn't find the Ned Flanders video.
And I echo Kolya.
Dear OP,
Phonological differences occur, deal with. Secondly I'd be much more worried over syntax if I were you.
" Is anyone else disappointed by declining standards in spoken English in Britain?"
Really ought to be declining standard (note singular) of spoken English etc. (note genitive construction).
Your usage of the plural and a locative construction is the kind of colloquialism you apparently detest, no?
You're not a linguist, you're not the arbiter of the English tongue.
Shocking.
Phonological differences occur, deal with. Secondly I'd be much more worried over syntax if I were you.
" Is anyone else disappointed by declining standards in spoken English in Britain?"
Really ought to be declining standard (note singular) of spoken English etc. (note genitive construction).
Your usage of the plural and a locative construction is the kind of colloquialism you apparently detest, no?
You're not a linguist, you're not the arbiter of the English tongue.
Shocking.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Kolya
Language standards change over time.
Such change is labelled as a 'decline' because some people have a vested interest in the continuation of earlier standards. For example f one has a prestige dialect then one's interests are served by defending perceptions of that dialect.
Such change is labelled as a 'decline' because some people have a vested interest in the continuation of earlier standards. For example f one has a prestige dialect then one's interests are served by defending perceptions of that dialect.
Exactly. It's interesting how those people who care about such things are also those people who like drawing and maintaining class distinctions.
Original post by The Lyceum
Dear OP,
Phonological differences occur, deal with. Secondly I'd much more worried over syntax if I were you.
" Is anyone else disappointed by declining standards in spoken English in Britain?"
Really ought to be declining standard (note singular) of spoken English etc. (note genitive construction).
Your usage of the plural and a locative construction is the kind of colloquialism you apparently detest, no?
You're not a linguist, you're not the arbiter of the English tongue, you're a pretentious brat. Is your life so hollow you have nought else to worry over but how others speak?
Shocking.
Phonological differences occur, deal with. Secondly I'd much more worried over syntax if I were you.
" Is anyone else disappointed by declining standards in spoken English in Britain?"
Really ought to be declining standard (note singular) of spoken English etc. (note genitive construction).
Your usage of the plural and a locative construction is the kind of colloquialism you apparently detest, no?
You're not a linguist, you're not the arbiter of the English tongue, you're a pretentious brat. Is your life so hollow you have nought else to worry over but how others speak?
Shocking.
Heeee. Funny.
Disappointed? Why would I be.
We arrived at our current English (and in fact all languages in the world) through slow language "evolution", through wrong pronunciations and spellings. Shakespeare himself would be appalled at how we arrived at our current English. Without any mistakes, we'd still be speaking like that. There's nothing you can do about it, m8. Language is evolving and will continue to evolve and there's no reason to try to stop it.
The sole purpose of language is for communication. As long as communication is happening then the job is done. I can guarantee you that wherever the English language is heading it will not get any worse regardless of how the word "labour" is pronounced.
Edit: oh and you want to know where everyone is from to test the "context" of their opinions? Well I wasn't born in England and in fact several years ago I couldn't speak English at all. My accent is slowly becoming more and more northern. Let's hope that doesn't make me a dirty chav.
We arrived at our current English (and in fact all languages in the world) through slow language "evolution", through wrong pronunciations and spellings. Shakespeare himself would be appalled at how we arrived at our current English. Without any mistakes, we'd still be speaking like that. There's nothing you can do about it, m8. Language is evolving and will continue to evolve and there's no reason to try to stop it.
The sole purpose of language is for communication. As long as communication is happening then the job is done. I can guarantee you that wherever the English language is heading it will not get any worse regardless of how the word "labour" is pronounced.
Edit: oh and you want to know where everyone is from to test the "context" of their opinions? Well I wasn't born in England and in fact several years ago I couldn't speak English at all. My accent is slowly becoming more and more northern. Let's hope that doesn't make me a dirty chav.
(edited 12 years ago)
Naw, dude, come oon! I'm down wiv talkin' bad and sugar, buut maaan! Wot's da problem? Yo' unnerstan, rite? Like yo' unnerstanme wot i'mma sayin' now, yeh?
Seriously, some people talking like this might grieve some people, but what if some people still talk like the fine example above?
This disagreement about "evolution" versus "decline" is fascinating, but as long as you can comprehend what someone is saying, that's already pretty good isn't it? Also, those who "bastardize" our native tongue aren't working hard on some diabolical language apocalypse, it's da way dey express 'emselves. And it is a part of culture...etc.
Yeah, so, basically, there ain't no problem wiv talkin' rough, as long as comprehension isn't compromised, and if there are still humans making fancier sounds with their stiff and noble jaws.
Seriously, some people talking like this might grieve some people, but what if some people still talk like the fine example above?
This disagreement about "evolution" versus "decline" is fascinating, but as long as you can comprehend what someone is saying, that's already pretty good isn't it? Also, those who "bastardize" our native tongue aren't working hard on some diabolical language apocalypse, it's da way dey express 'emselves. And it is a part of culture...etc.
Yeah, so, basically, there ain't no problem wiv talkin' rough, as long as comprehension isn't compromised, and if there are still humans making fancier sounds with their stiff and noble jaws.
The BBC has for sometime moved away from RP, this is because it's seen as undesirable, pretentious and out of touch (WHYYOUNOUNDERSTAND) It's incompatible with the modern british audience. The BBC have to appeal to the majority of viewers, which sadly are not the good old prescriptivist language warriors, so please deal with the fact the BBC is using regional accents rather than that elitist old drivel called 'RP'
I think it is too difficult to reign in a language and prevent (natural) change.
Many world languages are being changed by the influence of English and I think British English is more and more being influenced by American English—especially considering how much American media exists in the UK.
EG. The Académie française was designed to maintain the French language and try to resist these 'changes' but now it's just seen as an outdated group of old people and they haven't been able to do much about the pervasive and ubiquitous influence on French from English, Arabic and other languages.
Many world languages are being changed by the influence of English and I think British English is more and more being influenced by American English—especially considering how much American media exists in the UK.
EG. The Académie française was designed to maintain the French language and try to resist these 'changes' but now it's just seen as an outdated group of old people and they haven't been able to do much about the pervasive and ubiquitous influence on French from English, Arabic and other languages.
Yes, I am disappointed, and worried about these falling standards, both spoken and written. It's America's influence firstly and foremostly I think, taking our language (as they have not got one of their own which they detest, may I point out!!) and murdering it. Combine Indians and Asians (in particular, though they are not alone in language barriers here,) speaking with heavy accents, making what they are saying impossible to understand, which is dreadful as I work in a supermarket and I can hardly understand about 10% of what my customers are trying to ask me!!
Another factor is an ever-increasing influx of immigrants who can either not speak English, or who only speak it badly. This all leads to worryingly falling standards.
Fillers such as "you know" hack me off - no, I DON'T know what you want to say, that's why I am waiting for you to tell me, you twit!! "Like" as well is another one. And "she went" - WHERE did she go? NOT what she said, that is dreadful grammar!!
Plus it is worrying the rising number of children leaving secondary school who are all but completely illiterate and worries rise - most likely they won't be able to get a job (particularly in this current economic climate,) so us, the taxpayers in years to come, will have to fund them living on the dole.
Another factor is an ever-increasing influx of immigrants who can either not speak English, or who only speak it badly. This all leads to worryingly falling standards.
Fillers such as "you know" hack me off - no, I DON'T know what you want to say, that's why I am waiting for you to tell me, you twit!! "Like" as well is another one. And "she went" - WHERE did she go? NOT what she said, that is dreadful grammar!!
Plus it is worrying the rising number of children leaving secondary school who are all but completely illiterate and worries rise - most likely they won't be able to get a job (particularly in this current economic climate,) so us, the taxpayers in years to come, will have to fund them living on the dole.
Original post by supercalifragilist
The BBC has for sometime moved away from RP, this is because it's seen as undesirable, pretentious and out of touch (WHYYOUNOUNDERSTAND) It's incompatible with the modern british audience. The BBC have to appeal to the majority of viewers, which sadly are not the good old prescriptivist language warriors, so please deal with the fact the BBC is using regional accents rather than that elitist old drivel called 'RP'
This is revealing, unless of course, you're being sarcastic.
'undesirable'? 'pretentious'? 'out of touch'? 'elitist'? You do realise that some working class people speak with RP as well?
Original post by najinaji
This is revealing, unless of course, you're being sarcastic.
'undesirable'? 'pretentious'? 'out of touch'? 'elitist'? You do realise that some working class people speak with RP as well?
'undesirable'? 'pretentious'? 'out of touch'? 'elitist'? You do realise that some working class people speak with RP as well?
How did you know bro
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