[markmp]

I'm very interested in applying for a Law Degree for 2013-14 course, however, I'm unsure as to whether its viable right now to aim to be a Solicitor or a Barrister.. like is there employment available or in the foreseable future in these jobs? Would be interested in the feedback from people on the Student's room..

[andymt]

Yes

[Norton1]

(Original post by andymt)
Yes

I'd enjoy seeing a term sheet done like the opening post:

(a) If a Borrower (or the Company on behalf of a Borrower) fails to issue a Selection Notice in relation to a Facility A Loan, the Loan will remain denominated for its next Interest Period in the same currency in which it is then outstanding.

[Happydude]

My dad's a lawyer and before we all applied to uni lots of my friends got work experience from him. His honest advice to them was, job-wise, there aren't tremendous prospects. He says there are too many graduates even now and with many smaller law firms (quite a large number of lawyers don't work in cities in fact!) twinned with an estate agents, the recession is kicking them in the teeth. No one is buying houses, but the estate agents that work for the firm still need paid. Unfortunately, this means a lot of smaller firms are taking on less lawyers as they can't afford it.

Hopefully, in the half decade or so before folk our age are looking for jobs after uni things will have changed for the better! Sorry for the pessimistic post, but it seems that is how things are right now.

[Crazy Jamie]

(Original post by Happydude)
My dad's a lawyer and before we all applied to uni lots of my friends got work experience from him. His honest advice to them was, job-wise, there aren't tremendous prospects. He says there are too many graduates even now and with many smaller law firms (quite a large number of lawyers don't work in cities in fact!) twinned with an estate agents, the recession is kicking them in the teeth. No one is buying houses, but the estate agents that work for the firm still need paid. Unfortunately, this means a lot of smaller firms are taking on less lawyers as they can't afford it.

Though for the sake of balance, it sounds like your dad is talking about a rather specific practice area there, and one that in fairness has been hit fairly hard by the economic climate. It is not the same for all practice areas.

The simple answer to the question is that yes, it in general terms there are employment opportunities available to the right candidates, and therefore an aim to work within the legal industry is more than viable. It is certainly more competitive than it was, but painting a picture of an industry that has closed its doors to recruitment would be highly inaccurate.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by Happydude)
My dad's a lawyer and before we all applied to uni lots of my friends got work experience from him. His honest advice to them was, job-wise, there aren't tremendous prospects. He says there are too many graduates even now and with many smaller law firms (quite a large number of lawyers don't work in cities in fact!) twinned with an estate agents, the recession is kicking them in the teeth. No one is buying houses, but the estate agents that work for the firm still need paid. Unfortunately, this means a lot of smaller firms are taking on less lawyers as they can't afford it.

Hopefully, in the half decade or so before folk our age are looking for jobs after uni things will have changed for the better! Sorry for the pessimistic post, but it seems that is how things are right now.

(Original post by Crazy Jamie)
Though for the sake of balance, it sounds like your dad is talking about a rather specific practice area there, and one that in fairness has been hit fairly hard by the economic climate. It is not the same for all practice areas.

What is unrepresentative of Happydude's posts is the reference to most conveyancing firms having estate agencies. That is a small minority.

Conveyancing does represent a significant proportion of the work of High Street firms and a far greater proportion of the legal profession works in such firms than anyone reading TSR would think.

However traditional conveyancers have not done that badly in the housing downturn. The firms in trouble were largely the "factory" conveyancing operations. Their capital intensive business model didn't easily downscale and their sophisticated revenue streams were badly hit by the collapse in interest rates. In many ways the traditional general practice model is more robust.

One development over the last decade is that it has become very hard to see the extent to which firms like this are recruiting. This is the disappearance of the traditional sits vac advert from the Law Society's Gazette and the virtual monopolisation of recruitment by agencies. One thing that young solicitors seem hardly to recognise is that a direct approach to a law firm puts that candidate well ahead of anyone applying through an agency because of the saving of the extremely high agency fees.

[Generalist]

There is light at the end of the tunnel - legal education itself speaks to many employers as a strong point on your CV.

Whether or not you decide to do law, if you perform well, in addition to working on some form of additional vocation, you will stand out.

I am wholly convinced that law firms and other professional services firms are not looking for just the stereotypical, excelling law student when seeking to offer training contracts.

If your track record indicates commercial aspirations, then becoming a solicitor is a legitimate route to pursue. You do not need legal experience to secure the training contract: most entry-level legal experience explains very little to a firm about your knowledge and comprehension of various business sectors. Practice areas based on litigation are also in need, so having an understanding of the marketplace really helps here.

Pursuing the barrister route is quite different, and it is much more law and litigation focused. If you have a certain kind of passion for the law such as criminal law or personal injury, commercial knowledge may not matter so much. Showing a passion via the routes of CAB and other forms of pro bono would better assist you, as they involve more forms of private client work.

I can only say that if you want to be a future solicitor, ensure your background indicates you have comprehension of various business sectors, particularly the ones your target law firms impact. Getting a 1st or a high 2:1 is not enough, nor are your marks the most significant factor in securing a training contract.

Firms want to know if you have the motivation to work with their clients, so I recommend in any application you write that you emphasize some aspiration to understand their business; I would only recommend applying to firms where you actually hold such an aspiration. You can emphasize the aspiration directly when the application or interviewer asks you specifically about your motivation for applying to the firm, and you can do so indirectly through your CV, which can be tailored to explain why your experience is relevant to business sectors the firm impacts. Additionally, you can emphasize the aspiration indirectly regarding any other question you are asked (whether in the application or in an interview) that does not talk about the firm. If you are able to convey your commercial sense in a variety of contexts, both the firms and their clients will appreciate it.

Law is also a viable career direction because of the increase of in-house lawyers, as well as the introduction of alternative business structures (ABSs). If you are genuinely passionate about this career direction, then it is certainly viable.

[Jack93o]

Depends, do you value your soul?

[jordonpat]

Its a good field to work but if you are really dedicated towards this work then you gonna have the bright future in it.

[Konran]

Was having a debate with a Solicitors firm on Twitter last night, yes worst place for a debate really.

We were discussing the £2.60ph pay rate for Trainee solicitors being discussed currently. Their argument was that at the moment firms can't afford the Training Contracts (TC) and therefore graduates were being duped into long internships or poorly paid paralegal positions with a vague hint at a TC at the end of the process, which may or may not materialise.

I countered with the idea that trebling the number of TCs available (Which could happen given the £2.60ph is about 30% of what is currently the minimum) will only result in an abundance of qualified solicitors, with no jobs to go to, being duped into long internships and poorly paid paralegal positions with a vague hint of a position in the firm at the end of it.

You have not avoided the exploitation, just extended it for 2 years while graduates finish their TC.

They countered with the idea that it is better to be qualified than not, at this point I gave up because twitter sucks for debate, but my counter argument was going to be that we have seen that University Degrees have lost some of their allure given that so many more people have them. In essence their value has been diluted by the sheer number of graduates. Why would it be any different with solicitors.

Whether there is a viable career in Law, sure, but don't go into Crime. That is a mugs game.

yes I am going into crime, so yes I must be a mug.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by Konran)
Was having a debate with a Solicitors firm on Twitter last night, yes worst place for a debate really.

We were discussing the £2.60ph pay rate for Trainee solicitors being discussed currently. Their argument was that at the moment firms can't afford the Training Contracts (TC) and therefore graduates were being duped into long internships or poorly paid paralegal positions with a vague hint at a TC at the end of the process, which may or may not materialise.

I countered with the idea that trebling the number of TCs available (Which could happen given the £2.60ph is about 30% of what is currently the minimum) will only result in an abundance of qualified solicitors, with no jobs to go to, being duped into long internships and poorly paid paralegal positions with a vague hint of a position in the firm at the end of it.

You have not avoided the exploitation, just extended it for 2 years while graduates finish their TC.

They countered with the idea that it is better to be qualified than not, at this point I gave up because twitter sucks for debate, but my counter argument was going to be that we have seen that University Degrees have lost some of their allure given that so many more people have them. In essence their value has been diluted by the sheer number of graduates. Why would it be any different with solicitors.

Whether there is a viable career in Law, sure, but don't go into Crime. That is a mugs game.

yes I am going into crime, so yes I must be a mug.

I think the key is this. That whilst there is a career structure for part-qualified accountants, there is none for part-qualified lawyers.

The effect of reducing the minimum salary (for one year only) would be to reduce the salaries of assistant solicitors and increase the profits of partners. The present position is a conspiracy by those who have got through the door to not open it wider for others to follow. It is noticeable that the strongest advocate of the status quo is the Junior Lawyers Division.

The danger for the Law Society is that if they do not increase the number of people getting training contracts they are in danger of solicitors becoming irrelevant. In England, unlike the USA, there is no crime of practising law without a licence. In practice that means that in an ABS world a conveyancing business needs only one lawyer who may be a licensed conveyancer and a probate, litigation or family practice needs one solicitor (assuming they sub-contract advocacy). Only in crime are solicitors in abundance needed. If ABS structures cannot hire the number of solicitors they need, they will simply train up in house graduates with only those skills needed to perform their function in the organisation. The organisation simply needs one individual in whose name conveyances and probate papers are drawn and claim forms issued.

[Selym95]

It is extremely difficult to gain a pupillage. The majority are 'oxbridge' graduates. The likelyhood of gaining a Training cintract is much higher, although they are still very hard to get. There seems to be a lot of graduates unable to secure either one of these courses and are left 'idle' for years, and still may never gain one. However, it is possible if you have excellent academics and a passion for the subject

[roh]

(Original post by Selym95)
It is extremely difficult to gain a pupillage. The majority are 'oxbridge' graduates. The likelyhood of gaining a Training cintract is much higher, although they are still very hard to get. There seems to be a lot of graduates unable to secure either one of these courses and are left 'idle' for years, and still may never gain one. However, it is possible if you have excellent academics and a passion for the subject

Though Oxbridge is useful at the Bar and it is extremely difficult to get Pupillage the majority are not Oxbridge grads. In fact not even a quarter are.

http://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/...ge-statistics/

[Selym95]

(Original post by roh)
Though Oxbridge is useful at the Bar and it is extremely difficult to get Pupillage the majority are not Oxbridge grads. In fact not even a quarter are.

http://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/...ge-statistics/

Curious. I will rephrase that 'oxbridge' graduates have the biggest advantage. I can't help notice that 42.4% of pupil barristers have not graduated from oxbridge or a russel group uni. This seems hard to believe, as there is a huge amout of emphasis on graduating at a top university. Maybe these students are mostly internationals.

[The_Male_Melons]

Viable career- NO NO NO NO NO. DO ANYTHING BUT LAW.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by Selym95)
Curious. I will rephrase that 'oxbridge' graduates have the biggest advantage. I can't help notice that 42.4% of pupil barristers have not graduated from oxbridge or a russel group uni. This seems hard to believe, as there is a huge amout of emphasis on graduating at a top university. Maybe these students are mostly internationals.

I think not. Table 59 here shows those universities with four or more pupils. As you can see it includes 10 universities which aren't or weren't Russell Group. Four of them are very large ex-Polys.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by The_Male_Melons)
Viable career- NO NO NO NO NO. DO ANYTHING BUT LAW.

You seem somewhat indecisive.

[The_Male_Melons]

(Original post by nulli tertius)
You seem somewhat indecisive.

[roh]

(Original post by Selym95)
Curious. I will rephrase that 'oxbridge' graduates have the biggest advantage. I can't help notice that 42.4% of pupil barristers have not graduated from oxbridge or a russel group uni. This seems hard to believe, as there is a huge amout of emphasis on graduating at a top university. Maybe these students are mostly internationals.

At top sets yes, some are almost exclusively Oxbridge, but the Bar is less mechanistic in its applications than law firms. Thus if you have something outstanding on your CV, be that mooting champion, dissertation published etc. it is more likely to be spotted than at a law firm, where a computer sifts you out for not having certain A levels for example.

If you look at this at page 45 it seems that only Oxbridge and UCL get more than a handful of graduates into the Bar every year, but from other unis a range including both RG and former polys manage to get a few into the Bar thus extended over the whole Bar the RG factor may not be as important?

Whether the Bar truly is a broadening its horizons regarding university is hard to tell and these statistics could be a one off, but RG doesn't appear to lend much advantage on the face of the stats. In perception though it does still seem to.

EDIT: And it would seem NT got that one published before me, my slow typing coming into play there!

[Konran]

Those tables are slightly misleading, not in the context you used them, but generally.

Oxbridge graduates make up 24% of the Bar. Yet they only make up about 0.5% of the Law graduates, and not all of them will apply to the Bar.

What we are looking at is the fact that a tiny fraction of the number of Law graduates are taking up 25% of the available positions at the Bar.

The Majority of those at the Bar are not oxbridge, but clearly those who attended oxbridge have a massive advantage over the rest of us.