The question is in the image attached. I'm referring to question 6 part b (i).
The expected answer is 9.
However, surely a group under mod 3 can not have more than 3 distinct elements, and we require every element in a group to be distinct? I am confused!
Thanks.
Groups (OCR fp3)
Announcements  Posted on  

Take our short survey, £100 of Amazon vouchers to be won!  23092016 

 Follow
 1
 18042012 23:36

 Follow
 2
 18042012 23:39
(Original post by quint101)
The question is in the image attached. I'm referring to question 6 part b (i).
The expected answer is 9.
However, surely a group under mod 3 can not have more than 3 distinct elements, and we require every element in a group to be distinct? I am confused!
Thanks.
Go through and write out all the elements yourself if you don't trust. 
 Follow
 3
 19042012 09:19
(Original post by around)
Our group consists of elements of the form ax+b, for a, b numbers mod 3. There are 3 possible choices for a (0, 1, 2) and 3 possible choices for b, giving 9 total elements in the group.
Go through and write out all the elements yourself if you don't trust.
But my question was why can a group under mod3 have more than 3 elements? For example: x, x+1, x+2 and 2x+1 here are all elements of the group. However, at least two of the are the same modulo 3. So (as as all elements in a group are distinct), we can not have more than three maximum element?
EDit: I am incorrectly assuming x is an interger. Then at least two from x, x+1, x+2 and 2x+1 do not have equal in mod 3. Could you please confirm this? If we were given all elements as integers, then the order of any group under mod3 cannot exceed 3 right?
Thanks. 
 Follow
 4
 19042012 09:44
(Original post by quint101)
a group under mod 3 can not have more than 3 distinct elements.
I am incorrectly assuming x is an interger.Last edited by electriic_ink; 19042012 at 09:50. 
 Follow
 5
 19042012 09:50
(Original post by quint101)
Obviously I get where 9 comes from!
But my question was why can a group under mod3 have more than 3 elements? For example: x, x+1, x+2 and 2x+1 here are all elements of the group. However, at least two of the are the same modulo 3. So (as as all elements in a group are distinct), we can not have more than three maximum element?
You're not interested in evaluating the polynomials for any particular value of x.
Indeed you're not even told what the domain of x is, or even that it has a domain since you're not considering them as a function from X to Y; solely as polynomials in their own right.
Edit: Too slowLast edited by ghostwalker; 20042012 at 06:59. Reason: Spelling. 
 Follow
 6
 19042012 10:15
(Original post by quint101)
Obviously I get where 9 comes from!
But my question was why can a group under mod3 have more than 3 elements? For example: x, x+1, x+2 and 2x+1 here are all elements of the group. However, at least two of the are the same modulo 3. So (as as all elements in a group are distinct), we can not have more than three maximum element?
EDit: I am incorrectly assuming x is an interger. Then at least two from x, x+1, x+2 and 2x+1 do not have equal in mod 3. Could you please confirm this? If we were given all elements as integers, then the order of any group under mod3 cannot exceed 3 right?
Thanks.Last edited by nuodai; 19042012 at 10:21.Post rating:3 
 Follow
 7
 19042012 16:18
Ok, thank you all. I understand this now.
I know here this is not the case, but just checking:
"If there exists a group under mod 3 where every element an an interger, then the groups order cannot be greater than 3"
Please confirm (or correct) the above.
(Original post by nuodai)
Just to reiterate what the two above me have said: polynomials don't always have to be seen as functions, and in some branches of mathematics it's often useful to distinguish between a "polynomial" and a "polynomial map", where the former is just a mathematical object that obeys certain rules, and the latter is a true function. A polynomial is basically just a vector, where instead of writing you write , for instance; except spaces of polynomials come with more structure because, whereas you can't "multiply" two vectors, you can multiply two polynomials. The is an "indeterminate", and needn't be considered as taking any kind of value. 
 Follow
 8
 19042012 16:37
(Original post by quint101)
"If there exists a group under mod 3 where every element an an interger, then the groups order cannot be greater than 3" 
 Follow
 9
 19042012 23:57
(Original post by nuodai)
The only way you could define what you mean by "group under addition modulo 3 in which every element is an integer" would be a "subgroup of ", so yes.
Thank you! 
 Follow
 10
 20042012 00:02
(Original post by quint101)
Yep, that exactly what I was thinking. A further question to confirm: if in our initial question we were given that x is an integer, the order of the group still would be 9 right (because we are considering a "polynomial" not a "polynomial map") ?
Thank you!
So they're all different even when considered as functions in this case.
But really this isn't something even firstyear undergraduates should be worrying about. Just interpret the to be "anything" so that two polynomials are equal if and only if all their coefficients are equal. 
 Follow
 11
 20042012 00:22
(Original post by quint101)
Obviously I get where 9 comes from!
But my question was why can a group under mod3 have more than 3 elements? For example: x, x+1, x+2 and 2x+1 here are all elements of the group. However, at least two of the are the same modulo 3. So (as as all elements in a group are distinct), we can not have more than three maximum element?
EDit: I am incorrectly assuming x is an interger. Then at least two from x, x+1, x+2 and 2x+1 do not have equal in mod 3. Could you please confirm this? If we were given all elements as integers, then the order of any group under mod3 cannot exceed 3 right?Last edited by Raiden10; 20042012 at 00:31.
Write a reply…
Reply
Submit reply
Register
Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post Already a member? Sign in
Oops, something wasn't right
please check the following:
Sign in
Not got an account? Sign up now
Updated: April 20, 2012
Share this discussion:
Tweet
TSR Support Team
We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.