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Note to Atheists: do you kill "inferior" species?

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    Hello

    One thing that has intrigued me a lot during my short time on this forum is the attempt to judge God by human standards. This is interesting because sadly, the majority of humans do not judge themselves or other humans based on how we treat other species. For example, if you have ever killed an insect on purpose, are you a murderer? Are you a bad, evil person? If you have ever eaten meat, are you a cannibal? Are you a terrible monster?

    For those Atheists who are against eating the flesh of animals and are against the genocides of insects, I really respect you, because that is basically showing a marked understanding in the fact that superiority in whatever way over another species is not a good excuse, according to human ideals, for killing/eating/harming another species. If you can be categorized into this group, then I would consider you to have more cause to wonder at the goodness of God.

    If however, you are not in the category above, then one thing that I think it's important for Atheists to understand is that the vast majority of Theists do not believe God = human but rather that God is superior to humans, as humans are superior to insects.

    However, most Christians, including me, do believe that God came to earth in human form (Jesus) in order to save mankind from sin. However, Christians believe that God in His original and permanent form is Spirit and is the Creator of earth, not an earthling!

    Jewish people who believe in God have for a long time understood this idea, that God is not a human and is not subject to human standards any more than humans are subjects to insect standards.

    In the Tanakh, humans are compared to grasshoppers and to grass, as well as to sheep, when compared to God. This shows that we are on an entirely different and WAY LOWER level on the "power chain" than God. Because of this, for most Theists who understand this principle, the trust and assurance that God is good is through recognizing our vast differences from Him.

    Isaiah 40 - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../Isaiah40.html
    (I boldened some.)


    "6 Hark! one saith: 'Proclaim!' And he saith: 'What shall I proclaim?' 'All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field;

    7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; because the breath of HaShem bloweth upon it--surely the people is grass.

    8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our G-d shall stand for ever.'


    9 O thou that tellest good tidings to Zion, get thee up into the high mountain; O thou that tellest good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: 'Behold your G-d!'

    10 Behold, the L-rd GOD will come as a Mighty One, and His arm will rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.

    11 Even as a shepherd that feedeth his flock, that gathereth the lambs in his arm, and carrieth them in his bosom, and gently leadeth those that give suck.

    12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

    13 Who hath meted out the spirit of HaShem? Or who was His counsellor that he might instruct Him?

    14 With whom took He counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of right, and taught Him knowledge, and made Him to know the way of discernment?

    15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance; behold the isles are as a mote in weight.

    16 And Lebanon is not sufficient fuel, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for burnt-offerings.

    17 All the nations are as nothing before Him; they are accounted by Him as things of nought, and vanity."

    Even though I understand that Atheists do not believe God exists, please consider the following points:

    1. Scientists are till this day attempting to find life on other planets, and to this day, the hope that there is life in other places of this universe drives them to keep searching. Why is that? Because people by nature do understand that there is a greater, more powerful force in the universe than humans. Nature, by the way, is more powerful than humans, but who controls nature? Is nature just chaotic, or is there a force, a Being, more powerful than Nature in the universe? Scientists today do not know everything. They are still learning, and other dimensions are still not under their "control" and cannot be "manipulated" by them or even observed. Under whose control are the dimensions? Those who believe in God believe that He is the Controller of the dimensions, and is not limited to space or time like humans are.

    2. When you question if God is good, first ask yourself if humans are good when compared to other species. How do most humans treat other species, including the ones most despised by humans? If you are guilty of treating "inferior" species badly (killing them, whether to eat or because they annoy you or whatever reason) then what is your excuse in judging God? Theists believe that God exists and is superior to the human species. Most Theists believe that God created life on earth. To equate this with humans, it's like if you built a robot. You can create it and you can destroy it (unless you constructed a robot under a boss and company policy prohibits you from destroying it.) It's yours to do with as you want.

    Theists believe in a higher power, higher even than the power of Nature. For many Theists, we believe that God is Spirit, limitless and immune to time and space. We believe that God knows the past, present, and future all at once, and is everywhere, with you and with me and in the Heavens (both sky, space, and His "Home")

    Even though you don't believe this because you can't see, hear, taste, or touch it. I hope you understand that most of the people who do believe in God are not crazy, but rather have experienced personally the existence of God which goes way beyond merely the physical realms we can see, hear, taste, and touch.

    Peace and God bless you

    Psalm 139 - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...Psalms139.html
    (I boldened some.)

    "1 For the Leader. A Psalm of David. O HaShem, Thou hast searched me, and known me.

    2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, Thou understandest my thought afar off.

    3 Thou measurest my going about and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

    4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O HaShem, Thou knowest it altogether.


    5 Thou hast hemmed me in behind and before, and laid Thy hand upon me.

    6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; too high, I cannot attain unto it.

    7 Whither shall I go from Thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from Thy presence?

    8 If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in the nether-world, behold, Thou art there.

    9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

    10 Even there would Thy hand lead me, and Thy right hand would hold me.


    11 And if I say: 'Surely the darkness shall envelop me, and the light about me shall be night';

    12 Even the darkness is not too dark for Thee, but the night shineth as the day; the darkness is even as the light.

    13 For Thou hast made my reins; Thou hast knit me together in my mother's womb.

    14 I will give thanks unto Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.


    15 My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

    16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance, and in Thy book they were all written--even the days that were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

    17 How weighty also are Thy thoughts unto me, O G-d! How great is the sum of them!

    18 If I would count them, they are more in number than the sand; were I to come to the end of them, I would still be with Thee."
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    if a spider gets up in my personal space, it will die... let this be a warning to all spiders..
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    You know, I have to applaud the amount of work you seem to put in your posts. However, there's too much and I don't read it. Please summarise
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    if a spider gets up in my personal space, it will die... let this be a warning to all spiders..
    Hello Bellissima,

    Do you think it's mean of people to discriminate against spiders? The poor spider can't help what it was born to be: a spider. Why kill it?

    Do you see my point how many humans try to judge God and say if God truly existed, He isn't good, yet here we know humans exist, and yet look how we treat "inferior" species???

    By the way, I don't like spiders either. I try to take them outside, but I understand why others kill them. My husband is pro-killing spiders and bugs. I'm not his judge, but it does make me think how it is ironic how people try to judge God (who is superior to humans) when most humans have no problem killing "inferior" species of life.

    Peace and God bless you
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    OP, while I understand that you want to provide a comprehensive perspective, not everyone has the time or patience to read the entire posts. The length of your posts seem off-putting to many, please consider summarizing them.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Bellissima,

    Do you think it's mean of people to discriminate against spiders? The poor spider can't help what it was born to be: a spider. Why kill it?

    Do you see my point how many humans try to judge God and say if God truly existed, He isn't good, yet here we know humans exist, and yet look how we treat "inferior" species???

    By the way, I don't like spiders either. I try to take them outside, but I understand why others kill them. My husband is pro-killing spiders and bugs. I'm not his judge, but it does make me think how it is ironic how people try to judge God (who is superior to humans) when most humans have no problem killing "inferior" species of life.

    Peace and God bless you
    We've judged god by calling him good. Why must he be good? We can only use our own brains to make judgements on things. We do it to holy texts all the time, hence why nearly all Christians are line drawing Christians and the extreme fundamentalists just have no friends

    The reason why we judge god is because it's seen as a concept until it's proven. A lot of people don't see sufficient proof for the god so for many, god is just man made. Hence the judging. If there was actual proof of the god then yea, we'd still judge but in the end our attempts would be futile as he is the overseer and everything.
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    I'd just like to add that the main difference between me and God is that I don't participate in the slaughtering and suffering of animals while simultaneously telling them I love them. If I loved him, I wouldn't be eating a bit of his arsecheek, or picking him up on a bit of paper and throwing him out of my house.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello

    One thing that has intrigued me a lot during my short time on this forum is the attempt to judge God by human standards. This is interesting because sadly, the majority of humans do not judge themselves or other humans based on how we treat other species. For example, if you have ever killed an insect on purpose, are you a murderer? Are you a bad, evil person? If you have ever eaten meat, are you a cannibal? Are you a terrible monster?

    For those Atheists who are against eating the flesh of animals and are against the genocides of insects, I really respect you, because that is basically showing a marked understanding in the fact that superiority in whatever way over another species is not a good excuse, according to human ideals, for killing/eating/harming another species. If you can be categorized into this group, then I would consider you to have more cause to wonder at the goodness of God.

    If however, you are not in the category above, then one thing that I think it's important for Atheists to understand is that the vast majority of Theists do not believe God = human but rather that God is superior to humans, as humans are superior to insects.

    However, most Christians, including me, do believe that God came to earth in human form (Jesus) in order to save mankind from sin. However, Christians believe that God in His original and permanent form is Spirit and is the Creator of earth, not an earthling!

    Jewish people who believe in God have for a long time understood this idea, that God is not a human and is not subject to human standards any more than humans are subjects to insect standards.

    In the Tanakh, humans are compared to grasshoppers and to grass, as well as to sheep, when compared to God. This shows that we are on an entirely different and WAY LOWER level on the "power chain" than God. Because of this, for most Theists who understand this principle, the trust and assurance that God is good is through recognizing our vast differences from Him.

    Even though I understand that Atheists do not believe God exists, please consider the following points:

    1. Scientists are till this day attempting to find life on other planets, and to this day, the hope that there is life in other places of this universe drives them to keep searching. Why is that? Because people by nature do understand that there is a greater, more powerful force in the universe than humans. Nature, by the way, is more powerful than humans, but who controls nature? Is nature just chaotic, or is there a force, a Being, more powerful than Nature in the universe? Scientists today do not know everything. They are still learning, and other dimensions are still not under their "control" and cannot be "manipulated" by them or even observed. Under whose control are the dimensions? Those who believe in God believe that He is the Controller of the dimensions, and is not limited to space or time like humans are.

    2. When you question if God is good, first ask yourself if humans are good when compared to other species. How do most humans treat other species, including the ones most despised by humans? If you are guilty of treating "inferior" species badly (killing them, whether to eat or because they annoy you or whatever reason) then what is your excuse in judging God? Theists believe that God exists and is superior to the human species. Most Theists believe that God created life on earth. To equate this with humans, it's like if you built a robot. You can create it and you can destroy it (unless you constructed a robot under a boss and company policy prohibits you from destroying it.) It's yours to do with as you want.

    Theists believe in a higher power, higher even than the power of Nature. For many Theists, we believe that God is Spirit, limitless and immune to time and space. We believe that God knows the past, present, and future all at once, and is everywhere, with you and with me and in the Heavens (both sky, space, and His "Home")

    Even though you don't believe this because you can't see, hear, taste, or touch it. I hope you understand that most of the people who do believe in God are not crazy, but rather have experienced personally the existence of God which goes way beyond merely the physical realms we can see, hear, taste, and touch.
    Hello.

    I don't question God's exisence because I can't see, hear, taste or touch Him. I can't see, hear, taste or touch atoms, per se. I question His existence because I'm a fan of Occam's Razor.

    Anyway, I don't kill inferior species. Mostly because, taking the assumption of God's existence and our own hubris out of the picture, there isn't really any great basis upon which to say that we're ultimately superior.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello eXe,

    Have you ever heard of skimming and scanning? It works. it's great for reading textbooks and papers for school as well.

    Peace and God bless you
    yes, I have, but I don't want to scan. I prefer to read entire posts to get their full message. If you fully intend of having people scan your posts as opposed to read them in their entirety, why do you post so much?

    Not trying to put you down to be honest...it's just constructive criticism.
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    (Original post by Foghorn Leghorn)
    Well i am a vegetarian, however tl;dr :pierre:
    You kill veggies! That's sick whatever have they done to you?
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    Apart from mosquitoes and wasps, I harbour no real hatred towards bugs.

    In as far as we are the apex predator of the world, we are superior to all animals (excepting specific situations, like being trapped in a cage with a tiger). However, just because we are superior, that does not give us the right to do whatever we like (the same could be said of God, should he exist).

    The following passage sums up my feelings perfectly:

    ‎"True human goodness, in all its purity and freedom, can come to the fore only when its recipient has no power. Mankind's true moral test, its fundamental test (which lies deeply buried from view), consists of its attitude towards those who are its mercy; animals. And in this respect mankind has suffered a fundamental debacle, a debacle so fundamental that all others stem from it." - Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being.
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    I don't get it. On the one hand you say we shouldn't judge god by human standards (e.g. killing inferior species) and should instead hold him to a higher standard and on the other you suggest that god isn't evil for killing us because he's just holding to the same standards as we hold ourselves to.
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    (Original post by plimsolls)
    Aw, makes me have a different perspective on spiders now. If they could work on being less hideous, then we could all be friends.
    Hello Plimsolis,

    There are some actually that are quite cool. Poor things. They can't help what they look like.

    By the way, I wonder if spiders had the brain power that humans do, if spiders would want to kill us and think we are "hideous"?

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Serentonin,

    Seriously? Is this a student forum? What do students do? In my university, we had to read a mountain of text from each and every class. Don't make me worry about the future of education please.

    Peace and God bless you
    I'm a scientist. I learn things from observation rather than reading. You should try it sometime, might mean you're not quite as oblivious to facts. :tsr:
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    Hello.

    I don't question God's exisence because I can't see, hear, taste or touch Him. I can't see, hear, taste or touch atoms, per se. I question His existence because I'm a fan of Occam's Razor.

    Anyway, I don't kill inferior species. Mostly because, taking the assumption of God's existence and our own hubris out of the picture, there isn't really any great basis upon which to say that we're ultimately superior.
    Hello TurboCretic,

    I'm curious. How do you classify the differences between humans and other species? Do you believe we are all equal? (Humans and dogs and grasshoppers and camels and bunny rabbits and so on?)

    Or, if you do not use the system superior/equal/inferior to categorize species, what exactly do you use to determine what a human can do to another species?

    Do you support the killing of insects, including those who destroy crops?
    Do you support fishing/hunting?
    Do you support chicken factories and butchering of cows, pigs, and so on? If so, why?

    Thanks.

    Peace and God bless you
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    So, let me make sure I understand your logic.

    What you're saying is, it's okay for God to do bad stuff to us because we're inferior to God, and similarly, we do bad things to animals which are 'inferior' to us. Right?

    But surely the reason a lot of people 'judge' God is because of all of the claims that 'God is good' and perfect and amazing and, as you said, superior to us. It's not like there are any (sane and rational) humans going around saying how good and perfect they are, and then stabbing a cow or something. I think it's more to do with the fact that there are claims made by God (or about God) which can be refuted.
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    (Original post by Ronove)
    For someone trying to take the high ground as a kind 'Christian' person, you're a bit of a bitch, aren't you? Does God tell you to respond to criticism with sarcastic backchat?
    I think it's just learning by example. After all her god apparently sends anyone who criticises him to hell to receive eternal torture and suffering. Sarcasm is pretty tame by comparison.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    1. Scientists are till this day attempting to find life on other planets, and to this day, the hope that there is life in other places of this universe drives them to keep searching. Why is that? Because people by nature do understand that there is a greater, more powerful force in the universe than humans. Nature, by the way, is more powerful than humans, but who controls nature? Is nature just chaotic, or is there a force, a Being, more powerful than Nature in the universe? Scientists today do not know everything. They are still learning, and other dimensions are still not under their "control" and cannot be "manipulated" by them or even observed. Under whose control are the dimensions? Those who believe in God believe that He is the Controller of the dimensions, and is not limited to space or time like humans are.
    Nature is just chaotic; pretty much everywhere in the Universe is inhospitable. It will take a massive effort and hundreds of trillions of dollars for humanity to make the other planets in the solar system habitable. Nature will ultimately destroy us if we don't learn to manipulate it in space as we are doing on Earth.

    2. When you question if God is good, first ask yourself if humans are good when compared to other species. How do most humans treat other species, including the ones most despised by humans? If you are guilty of treating "inferior" species badly (killing them, whether to eat or because they annoy you or whatever reason) then what is your excuse in judging God? Theists believe that God exists and is superior to the human species. Most Theists believe that God created life on earth. To equate this with humans, it's like if you built a robot. You can create it and you can destroy it (unless you constructed a robot under a boss and company policy prohibits you from destroying it.) It's yours to do with as you want.
    But if we built a sentient robot capable of thinking on the same level as humans and feeling something analagous to emotions then I think the destruction of that robot would be murder. And if we built some gigantic, powerful, highly intelligent robot that greatly surpassed us in every respect but which had no regard for human life I don't think there would be mass opposition to its destruction for the purpose of saving lives and I don't think we would have a problem applying our standards to it.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Plimsolis,

    There are some actually that are quite cool. Poor things. They can't help what they look like.

    By the way, I wonder if spiders had the brain power that humans do, if spiders would want to kill us and think we are "hideous"?

    Peace and God bless you
    They might. Beauty and ugliness are arguably objective in nature, so perhaps there would be less of a chance of them considering us to be "hideous"/ threatening looking, perhaps they would want to kill us for other reasons though.

    Thank you for the light dusting of patronisation.

    Peace and FSM bless you.
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    Hi. I read most of your post and I think you're trying to say that it's hypocritical for those who harm "inferior" animals to criticise God (who is superior to humans) for being perhaps a little harsh to humans?

    That is a fair point but wouldn't you agree that these are two different things? After all, God has, according to some, been pretty cruel to humanity at times but expects and demands that we still love him and respect him. When we as humans kill a chicken for food or a spider because it creeps us out we don't then expect all chickens and spiders to adore and worship us (assuming they were able to do these things!).

    Note: I'm not an atheist and don't mean to cause offence to religious people.

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