[tomclarky]

(Original post by mevidek)
Nope, but it's up to one to develop their own rational opinion, rather than just accepting everything blindly in a book, even if it was influenced by God.

Romans 1:19-22

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

I interpret these passages as God saying we should believe in him simply by observing the world.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by sword)
so they automatically get a free ticket into heaven because they were born in the jungle in the middle of nowhere?

doesn't seem very fair to me

another user said theyre judged by their actions then... seems fair

[dgeorge]

(Original post by inadilemma)
I originally posted this as a PM to someone but as of yet they haven't replied so I thought I might post this for discussion purposes. I don't want to offend anyone, or cause an argument, I would just like a discussion. Obviously, that's not likely to happen, but it would be nice if people could try and not insult each other. Thanks.

I was raised in a Jewish household (albeit not the most religious household) but recently I've started having serious doubts about religion as a whole. Not quite sure how I feel about the existence of G-d, so I guess that makes me agnostic? Anyway...

This has been bugging me for a while. Ok, so if you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, you'd agree that there's only one G-d. But you'd also agree that it's the same G-d for Jews, Christians and Muslims because Christianity and Islam are essentially evolutions of Judaism. Ignoring the fact that there are various things that all three of those religions disagree on, let's go back to the fundamentals: the Ten Commandments.

If G-d wanted everyone to obey him and worship him (and he does), why did he only give the Ten Commandments to one small group of people, in an isolated area in the world? Why, not to various different prophets all over the world? Surely, it would have been better, and far more efficient to reveal himself to everyone? And yet, there are so many religions that do not even revolve around the Ten Commandments: Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, Scientology, Jainism.

Now (some) Christians feel compelled to convert people in order to save them from eternal damnation. Judaism is different because it's laws only apply to people who are 'born Jewish' i.e. born of a Jewish mother. While Jews have 613 rules to follow, the rest of the world has only 7 to follow in order to go to Heaven. However, I have my issues with the 'born Jewish' idea as there is no biological reason for someone being 'born Jewish'. There is nothing in our DNA that suggests a Jewish gene. But that's for another time.

But, for Christianity, it's pretty much a standard thing: if you don't believe in Christ, you 'aint going to Heaven. 'No one gets to the Father except through me'. Would it not have been easier then, for G-d to manifest himself in more that one human form, not just Jesus? Why only Jesus, in one part of the world, to a relatively small group of people?

I know there are a lot of people who argue that G-d wouldn't let good people of other religions go to Hell. But if you believe the Bible is the word of G-d, then only Christians will go to Heaven. If G-d loves everyone then surely he wants everyone to go to Heaven. Therefore, why didn't he let the entire world know about him? Hardly fair if one area of the world believes something because they saw it first hand and the rest of the world is expected to believe it from other people that tell them it's true.

The same goes for Islam. Why not have prophets all over the world spreading the same message? Why only Muhammad and why only in Arabia?

The same applies to Hinduism, Sikhism, etc. If any of these religions are true, why did the respective gods of these religions only introduce it in such a small area of the world and to a small amount of people?

Discuss.

Summary: Religion doesn't make sense

Welcome to the Matrix

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by sword)
so they automatically get a free ticket into heaven because they were born in the jungle in the middle of nowhere?

doesn't seem very fair to me

Well if you're a horrible, rapist paedo murderer tribesperson then no, presumably you don't get a free ticket to heaven

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
another user said theyre judged by their actions then... seems fair

It is and it's not... Like for example, the nice tribe member will go to heaven, but the nice Hindu won't (according to Christianity/Islam).

Although I think I'd rather go to hell than worship such a mean god.

[Like a BAWS]

Well in the west, the three biggest religions worship the same god. And the other main religions in the world such as Buddhism and Hunduism are a totally different way of thinking altogether which isn't about worshipping an interventionist or judgemental God

[A Perfect Circle]

(Original post by chickenonsteroids)
i.e you don't see enough evidence? I've heard 2 ideas

1. You go to hell (because there is evidence)
2. You'll go to heaven if you ask for forgiveness because you'd only go to hell if you reject god with the bottom of your heart.

With both options, the fault lies entirely with the "all-loving" celestial dictator.

Hence, an atheist I shall remain. Thanks for answering though!

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
It is and it's not... Like for example, the nice tribe member will go to heaven, but the nice Hindu won't (according to Christianity/Islam).

Although I think I'd rather go to hell than worship such a mean god.

interesting... i thought you meant 'havent heard' as in god in general...(meaning hindus are still in with the big man)... though if you mean 'havent heard' as in not familiar with the christian religion, then whats the difference between a hindu thats never head of christianity and one of these tribesmen?

[chickenonsteroids]

(Original post by HSG1992)
With both options, the fault lies entirely with the "all-loving" celestial dictator.

Hence, an atheist I shall remain. Thanks for answering though!

Well it depends on what you mean by all-loving. Is it being 'just' or just forgiving or accepting everyone?

Eh, I disagree with the reward and punishment thing totally... there's so much fuss about it.

I'm an atheist also, I was just answering your question because I felt I could

[inadilemma]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello Inadilemma,

You have awesome, very difficult questions, but very good ones!

I personally believe that God made people with free will, as in not robots. He didn't program people to do and say what He wants. However, I do believe that God gave people the ability to seek Him if they want to. It does seem very strongly to me that God wants people to want to seek Him and to do so.

I don't suppose you happened to see my posts on your last thread about the contradiction between free-will and G-d's omniscience did you? Well, that.

Concerning your question above, it doesn't start with the ten commandments actually. The story begins at the beginning (Genesis.)

God created the earth to be "good." If you notice, the food He gave to Adam and Eve was not animal's flesh, but rather fruit. For this reason, I believe God originally created animal life (including humans) to eat vegetation only. I believe that is good in the fact that no animal (including humans) died during this short-lived time. I personally believe that the first animal killed was after Adam and Eve disobeyed God's one commandment to them. and that some animals began to grow carnivorous characteristics.

So, when God created life on earth, it was not His intention for them to start killing each other. When Cain killed Abel, God demanded an account from Cain, asking him what he had done. Cain replied with the famous words "Am I my brother's keeper?" To me, this shows that God did not create people with the purpose of killing other people, but rather, humans through their free will, influenced the future of the earth in a very negative way

Humans had gotten so wicked after awhile that God decided to destroy most of His Creation, but allow a remnant to survive through Noah. Why? Because it hurt Him emotionally that humans were so evil. That was not His plan for humans to be. After the ark landed, God allowed humans to eat other animals' flesh.

Now, did God know all this way before He created the earth? Yes. However, God thought it worthwhile to create life on earth anyways, because He loves His Creation.

Way before Moses' time, God chose Abram and promised him that he would bless all peoples through him. I think that's so cool! Even though my ancestry is not Jewish, I am not jealous, but rather it blows my mind how God, who allows people to do their own thing, chose a man who I believe sought and loves God (Abram) and promised to bless all people through his offspring!!!

Again before Moses' time, after Noah, there were the Noahtide laws, that are basically for everyone. They include not hurting people (by killing, stealing, committing adultery.)

During and after Moses' time, God stipulated that any foreigner who wants to seek God, should be allowed to do so. This means that it is basically up to every person to decide if they want to follow God or not.

So, to directly answer your first question:
"If G-d wanted everyone to obey him and worship him (and he does), why did he only give the Ten Commandments to one small group of people, in an isolated area in the world?"

He judges people based on all their "equation." Just because other people did not have the Ten Commandments, that does not mean that many did not seek and find Him where they were (which was not where Moses was.)

...

If you read Jesus' words accounted in the Gospels of the Bible, He doesn't mention hell for those who don't believe in him. He does say that he is the way, the truth, and the life. However, when Jesus does mention hell, it is interesting that hell is emphasized as the place where those who don't help other people go. Please research hell in the Bible, and one can see that.

But how do you explain 'No one gets to the Father except through me'? G-d is in Heaven, is he not? So, if you can't get to G-d except through Jesus, then doesn't it logically follow that you won't go to Heaven? They therefore go to Hell. And despite the fact that you say Jesus doesn't describe it how people currently view it (i.e. the Dante's inferno model) I can't imagine it'd be a particularly pleasant place to be.

[inadilemma]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
interesting post, i presume you do already know all posts here are mere speculations as well..

Of course

Just interested to see people's reactions.

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
interesting... i thought you meant 'havent heard' as in god in general...(meaning hindus are still in with the big man)... though if you mean 'havent heard' as in not familiar with the christian religion, then whats the difference between a hindu thats never head of christianity and one of these tribesmen?

Sorry, because we were talking about isolated peoples I just stuck with them. The same "judged by actions only" thing would apply to anyone who hadn't heard of Christianity/Islam, whether they're living in the Amazon, a Hindu, a Taoist etc.

[Arbolus]

The Jews from the time of Moses to the Babylonian captivity weren't monotheists, they were monolatrists. That is, they believed in the existence of many gods but only worshipped one, just like all the other Canaanite tribes. Hence why both Aaron and the Egyptian priests were able to turn their staffs into snakes (Exodus 7:11), the Israelites were frightened of invading Moab after the king there offered a sacrifice to the Moabite god (2 Kings 3:27), and passages such as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3) and "Among all the gods there is none like unto thee" (Psalms 86:8).

Originally Yahweh was merely the god of the Israelites rather than the single God of the universe. It seems that as Israel expanded, other members of the Canaanite pantheon such as El the creator god and Tammuz Adonai, one of the many gods of fertility and the seasons, were merged into a single deity who ruled the whole of creation. But the original Yahweh, as followed by Moses, would have had no reason to expect anyone outside of the Levant to worship him, nor any desire to make them do so, and that's why his cult would never have appeared anywhere else independently.

[lukas1051]

Y'know this is probably the biggest reason I do not belong to any religion. If there are thousands of groups of people on Earth who claim to have the answer (albeit with no testable evidence), which group is correct? It has always bugged me that people honestly believe us, as tiny insignificant human brings, can know the answers to EVERYTHING. If there is a god, and he is mighty, omniscient, omnipotent, how can we possibly comprehend his existence? And why would he care about this tiny insignificant rock in a random place in this incomprehensibly cast universe?

[inadilemma]

(Original post by Arbolus)
The Jews from the time of Moses to the Babylonian captivity weren't monotheists, they were monolatrists. That is, they believed in the existence of many gods but only worshipped one, just like all the other Canaanite tribes. Hence why both Aaron and the Egyptian priests were able to turn their staffs into snakes (Exodus 7:11), the Israelites were frightened of invading Moab after the king there offered a sacrifice to the Moabite god (2 Kings 3:27), and passages such as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3) and "Among all the gods there is none like unto thee" (Psalms 86:8).

Originally Yahweh was merely the god of the Israelites rather than the single God of the universe. It seems that as Israel expanded, other members of the Canaanite pantheon such as El the creator god and Tammuz Adonai, one of the many gods of fertility and the seasons, were merged into a single deity who ruled the whole of creation. But the original Yahweh, as followed by Moses, would have had no reason to expect anyone outside of the Levant to worship him, nor any desire to make them do so, and that's why his cult would never have appeared anywhere else independently.

If G-d created the universe then, according to what you've written, surely G-d created those other gods? Why would He do that?

[Arbolus]

(Original post by inadilemma)
If G-d created the universe then, according to what you've written, surely G-d created those other gods? Why would He do that?

To the early Jews there was no G-d. They worshipped YHWH, who they believed to be more powerful than other deities but was not same as the creator god. Compare it to Greek mythology, where Zeus was the king of the gods but was merely a descendant of the primordial Chaos. It was only in the time of the kingdoms that they gave YHWH all the attributes of the other members of the pantheon, who were relegated to the status of angels, to form the single supreme God that we know of today.

[inadilemma]

(Original post by lukas1051)
Y'know this is probably the biggest reason I do not belong to any religion. If there are thousands of groups of people on Earth who claim to have the answer (albeit with no testable evidence), which group is correct? It has always bugged me that people honestly believe us, as tiny insignificant human brings, can know the answers to EVERYTHING. If there is a god, and he is mighty, omniscient, omnipotent, how can we possibly comprehend his existence? And why would he care about this tiny insignificant rock in a random place in this incomprehensibly cast universe?

These are exactly the thoughts that I have going round in my head at the moment.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by inadilemma)
I don't suppose you happened to see my posts on your last thread about the contradiction between free-will and G-d's omniscience did you? Well, that.

Hello Inadilemma,

Did you recently reply? I have to go soon, but I will check and see, and I have other posts to find too.

But how do you explain 'No one gets to the Father except through me'?

How did people before Jesus came to earth as a baby get to the Father?

I believe Jesus is the Word of God, which has not always been in human form.

G-d is in Heaven, is he not?

According to Psalm 139, God's presence is everywhere.

Yes He is in Heaven too.

So, if you can't get to G-d except through Jesus, then doesn't it logically follow that you won't go to Heaven? They therefore go to Hell.

That's what most Christians assume. However, God knows the whole picture. People know only pieces of the puzzle.

And despite the fact that you say Jesus doesn't describe it how people currently view it (i.e. the Dante's inferno model) I can't imagine it'd be a particularly pleasant place to be.

Jesus is Jewish. In Jewish thought at that time (during the Roman occupation of Israel) what was the basic ideas of hell? That is a question I'd like to know.

Peace and God bless you

[Bukhatir]

click here

[Roger Mexico]

What you guys need to realise is that trying to argue with the religious can be equated to playing chess with a pidgeon; it'll knock over pieces, **** all over the board and at the end of the day it'll just fly back to all it's pidgeon friends and you'll have achieved nothing at all.

[getoom]

(Original post by sword)
so they automatically get a free ticket into heaven because they were born in the jungle in the middle of nowhere?

doesn't seem very fair to me

in Islam it is said by the scholars that the one who did not receive the message will be tested on the day of judgment and on the outcome of that test their fate shall rest