[ummdhibun]

(Original post by garfeeled)
not true evidence suggest its an antigen release during early pregnancy that causes the gene to be diffrent plus the thing about treating the gay is untrue, just look at american gay "help" groups even they admit they dont work they just stop them acting on what they feel. plus its pretty damn funny when the founder of love in action admits he's gay.

There's very little evidence on both sides i suppose. But it has been listed in charters as a psychological condition.

LOL, yeah it is.

[Keckers]

(Original post by Christianlady)
There are some Christians who believe it is ok to be homosexual or gay. I don't know how they reconcile that belief to the Tanakh and Christian Bible's guidelines that God gave people, but that is between them and God.

I believe they reconcile it in the same way that you feel it fit to wear cloth of two blended materials, or eat shellfish, or eat prok, or eat fat, or wear gold jewellery, or speaking in church as a female.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
1. Jesus says nothing about 'sexual purity'. Jesus talks about divorce. No where does he mention anything about other forms of sexual relations. He only mentions sexual relations as a reason for divorce. Jesus specifically talks about adultery. You cannot then over generalize that to all sexual encounters.

Hello RandZul'Zorander,

Jesus does talk about sexual relations, and not just while talking about divorce. The following are different passages where Jesus mentions "sex..." Please remember that Jesus, a Jewish man who knew and followed the Tanakh, and claimed to fulfill the prophesies/promises of the Tanakh concerning himself, knew the commands of God to the Israelites through Moses.

Matthew 5 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+5&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[Exodus 20:14] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[Deut. 24:1] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "

Matthew 15 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...15&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

Since Jesus taught that sexual immorality is one of the things that makes a person "unclean" and "defiles" a person, then it is obvious that he is teaching sexual purity.

Sexual immorality in the Jewish culture of Jesus' time was considered engaging in sexual activity prohibited by God through God's law to the children of Israel through Moses.

2. My response to you is then why do you keep referring to such archaic rules that you discredit because they aren't from a more modern time? You say you don't have to follow leviticus and such because 'nobody lives in the time of Moses anymore'. Therefore stop quoting leviticus to back up your claims. Unless you are going to be consistent don't bother.

As a Christian, my whole reason for believing Jesus is who he says he is can be found in the Tanakh. Why? Because the prophesies and promises that I believe Jesus fulfills and will fulfill are in the Tanakh. Because of this, it is extremely important to me what Jesus followed What did he follow? The Law of Moses and the prophet that God had sent to the children of Israel.

Concerning modern times and Gentiles, if you study the history of Christians, the first official followers of Jesus were Jewish people - his apostles, disciples, his Mom, they are all Jewish and all followed the Tanakh. It was only after Jesus ascended into Heaven and God gave Peter the vision containing unclean animals that Gentiles begin to "officially" follow Jesus too. In Acts 15 it explains the differences between the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians. Please note in the following that sexual purity was one of the specific items the apostles who walked and talked with Jesus emphasized to the Gentile believers in Jesus.

Acts 15 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...15&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[Amos 9:11,12 (see Septuagint)] —
18 things known from long ago.[Some manuscripts things’— / 18 the Lord’s work is known to him from long ago]

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers

22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell."

3. I understand that you seem to think that God can change someone's sexual orientation but that is not the same as what was mentioned in the passage you quoted. You quoted a sexual practice. Adultery. People can indeed change their sexual activities (as I've said before a homosexual male is capable of having sex with a woman), but that doesn't change a person's sexual orientation.

There are people who believe that God has changed/changes/will change their sexual orientation in alignment with His commands, regardless of what people who oppose them think.

4. Again there is much contention over Paul's passage in the NT. Considering he made up a word in the greek and it has been disputed what it means for many decades I do not place much faith in the only recent adaptation to mean homosexuals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bib..._homosexuality this actually has a decent representation of the controversy

What do you believe the following means?

Romans 1 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...01&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. "

Remember, Paul used to be Saul, a Pharisee who was extremely zealous for the law of Moses. He knew Leviticus.

Peace and God bless you

[Christianlady]

(Original post by .eXe)
Just read post 197. It truly doesn't matter what that 1 verse says because it's not like God has asked all Christians to go persecute gays. Why are we so concerned about it?

Christianity isn't like Islam (which get's debated a lot). This is because, in their religion, God specifically COMMANDS them to go kill sinners.

Jesus did no such thing so this entire debate is useless. Christians who persecute gays are wrong. We are to love homosexuals just like we are to love ourselves or to love our God.

Hello eXe,

I agree. Also, I think something that many people who support homosexuality do not understand is that for Christians, there are many sexual no-nos, not just same gender sexual activities. Opposite gender sexual activities (heterosexuality) such as adultery, incest, and rape are not pleasing to God either. Although not specifically stated, it is implied that sex before marriage is not pleasing to God either.

Bestiality is also not pleasing to God.

While they are not specifically in the Bible, many Christians also believe pornography and masturbation are sexual no-nos, because they are seen by many people as under the category of adultery.

Jesus specifically said that lusting in one's heart is committing adultery, so that is why many Christians believe that.

Sexual immorality is not the only thing that Christians believe displease God.

Murder, robbery, not caring for others, hatred of people (which is different than hating sin... people are not sin) greed, envy, and so on are also not considered pleasing to God.

Now, it is most definitely true that God forgives!!! That's the awesome thing... nobody is perfect but when we ask God for forgiveness and strive to please Him, He forgives, and through His Holy Spirit, He helps us live for Him because we love Him, and most importantly, He loves us!!!

I absolutely love these verses below, because I can relate to them by God's wonderful amazing grace!!!

Galatians 5 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+5&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[Lev. 19:18] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."


1 Corinthians 6 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+6&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality

12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[Gen. 2:24] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[c]

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. "


Peace and God bless you

[Keckers]

(Original post by Christianlady)
[snip]

Do you speak in church?

[RandZul'Zorander]

(Original post by Christianlady)
x

For all of that. I have been doing some research. And many bibles translate into fornication or unfaithfulness for the passage that Jesus is actually speaking. In addition to that I looked up the Greek. πορνείας or porneias is the word that was actually used. This means prostitution. Which would not imply sexual immorality but in fact adultery for if someone is married and a prostitute then they are committing adultery.

EDIT: Just to be clear I do not claim to have a full understanding of the Greek or its meanings and intricacies but this is from what I can find doing a little research.

There are people who believe that God has changed/changes/will change their sexual orientation in alignment with His commands, regardless of what people who oppose them think.

I can tell. You seem to be one of them. Although that doesn't change what I said before. Nor does it show that it has happened.

What do you believe the following means?

Romans 1 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...01&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. "

Remember, Paul used to be Saul, a Pharisee who was extremely zealous for the law of Moses. He knew Leviticus.

Peace and God bless you

I'm not going to go into this as I already gave you a link describing the debate. It actually had good information and sources. So you should read up on it. I personally don't have an opinion on it seeing as there is much controversy and I don't study these things. But I am aware of both sides and their very basic arguments. I find it interesting that it translates slightly differently in each different bible. Because that to me just shows people manipulating the words to mean what they want rather than taking their literal meanings. In addition to that I find it amusing that Paul seems to have made up words which makes it even harder to determine what he actually means in the passage.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by Keckers)
Do you speak in church?

Hello Keckers,

I'm going to start a thread in your honor answering this question, k?

Peace and God bless you

[Keckers]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello Keckers,

I'm going to start a thread in your honor answering this question, k?

Peace and God bless you

And are you willing to answer any of my other questions? Or are these just bits of scripture which you find too inconvenient to follow?

(Original post by Keckers)
I believe they reconcile it in the same way that you feel it fit to wear cloth of two blended materials, or eat shellfish, or eat prok, or eat fat, or wear gold jewellery, or speaking in church as a female.