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Any vegetarians?

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    (Original post by tomclarky)
    How is a black person moving to Europe restricting their diet?
    If i decided to cut out all fruit and vegetables and just take loads of supplements, would you consider that a healthy diet?
    A black person can naturally synthesize vitamin D (an essential nutrient) from the sun in areas with plenty of sun, like in Africa. But by moving to Europe, the person puts himself in a position where he has to rely on supplements for his nutrition. I really don't see how you've made a compelling case for the difference.

    A healthy diet is one that contains all the necessary nutrients we need. So yes, I would think that a fully-supplemented diet could be healthy. It might not be 'natural', but as I've said, I can't see any normative reason why we ought to avoid supplements. That said, I might think it quite silly for a person to completely cut out fruit and vegetables from their diet. But I can't imagine a compelling moral reason not to, especially when we might have good reasons to put ourselves in a situation where we would benefit from them.



    (Original post by tomclarky)
    I think you're mistaken in thinking that the initial cells they take from the animal to create lab meat are embryonic, when in fact they can use myosatellite cells. They just extract a piece of adult muscle tissue. It's nothing like designing babies, harvesting their organs and then killing them.
    I'm not assuming that the cells are embryonic. But they're hardly going to go up to free animals and collect the cells. The animals will still be bred, manipulated and kept (and presumably killed when no longer useful).

    (Original post by tomclarky)
    Promoting veganism isn't going to suddenly save billions of animals lives any quicker than In Vitro meat will. Insisting that the whole world will turn vegan and to dismiss In Vitro meat as a solution would get in the way of a potentially revolutionary scientific breakthrough.
    Well, this is just going round in circles. Like I said, there is a cost involved to promoting in vitro meat, and that cost could be spent promoting and educating people about veganism (which does have a pay-off, in that people do become vegan). So the following question then becomes empirical - which ought we support? I took issue with your claim that vegetarians (and I assume vegans) have a moral obligation to support in vitro meat. I've listed some considerations that I think weigh in favour of promoting veganism:

    1) Veganism is wider in that it covers more cases of human-animal injustice.
    2) The effect is instantaneous.
    3) By not promoting veganism, we entrench the attitude towards animals that has caused all these problems in the first place.
    4) We don't achieve any of the incidental positive effects that come from reduced consumption of animal products in the meantime (such as lower carbon emissions and other pollution, lower global food prices [and thus less poverty] etc).

    As I have repeatedly said, if people ignore these considerations and just develop in vitro meat anyway, then it will have a beneficial effect. I acknowledge this. But it doesn't follow that it is optimal solution, or that we ought to support it.


    (Original post by tomclarky)
    Lol, where do i start with the China Study. Maybe here?

    You still haven't proven that eating lean chicken or oily fish is unhealthy and quite frankly i'm not interested in getting into a detailed debate about nutrition. Both meat eating and non meat eating diets can be healthy, depending hugely on the foods you consume within them.
    So you've gone from claiming that no nutritionist in the world would agree with me to claiming 'oh, no nutritionist, apart from those who are highly qualified and at respectable universities, because their work can be discredited by reference to independent persons/organisations who, for private purposes, promote a diet high in animal-protein'.

    Now, as I said, I don't think your argument about the 'healthiness' of chicken/fish has any force if, as I have claimed, a) the amount of animal foods consumed must be minimal for such a diet to be healthy; and b) diets without those things can be healthy. I'm not sure what your point is here.

    (Original post by tomclarky)
    Then again, this is coming from someone who thinks we shouldn't even have pets.
    I would really like to see what you think is so self-evidently good about absolutely owning other creatures. There are plenty of problems that stem from pet ownership, such as:

    a) 'Puppy mills', and their analogues for other animals.
    b) The widespread cruelty that such animals suffer.
    c) The fact that animals are often neglected in their basic needs because they are treated as existing for the benefit of humans.

    But above all, I don't think these are the most fundamental considerations. I've spoken about babies, and how it's not acceptable to just treat them as means to our own ends. I think the same about animals. This has implications for how we act towards animals - we can't just claim to own animals, stick them in our homes or in cages, just because we think it might be fun for us.
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    (Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
    A black person can naturally synthesize vitamin D (an essential nutrient) from the sun in areas with plenty of sun, like in Africa. But by moving to Europe, the person puts himself in a position where he has to rely on supplements for his nutrition. I really don't see how you've made a compelling case for the difference.
    That still isn't restrictive of their diet. And anyway, Vitamin D can be obtained from food sources, not just the sun. Are you trying to say everyone in Europe relies on Vitamin D supplements?

    I'm not assuming that the cells are embryonic. But they're hardly going to go up to free animals and collect the cells. The animals will still be bred, manipulated and kept (and presumably killed when no longer useful).
    The scientists have no reason to torture the animals unnecessarily. It probably takes 5 minutes to extract the sample of tissue then the animal could be let free, in theory. You're assuming something completely without basis. And In no way does that compare to harvesting organs from designer babies. In fact they can produce billions of pounds worth of meat just from one small sample of muscle tissue.

    As I have repeatedly said, if people ignore these considerations and just develop in vitro meat anyway, then it will have a beneficial effect. I acknowledge this. But it doesn't follow that it is optimal solution, or that we ought to support it.
    Any other problems with the way humans treat animals (animal testing etc) have no relevance to the discussion because they can be solved independant of a vegan lifestyle and therefore in tandem with people supporting lab meat. In Vitro meat answers all the problems with rearing animals for food and it lets people eat what they want. To me it's 'optimal' because it's also realistic. Worldwide veganism won't happen any quicker than scientists can create safe and tasty lab meat. Here are the only statistics for veganism i could find- http://www.imaner.net/panel/statistics.htm#reveal It's hardly increased in numbers in the last decade.

    Like I said, there is a cost involved to promoting in vitro meat, and that cost could be spent promoting and educating people about veganism
    In Vitro meat is going to be developed whether people support it or not and in the future, when people can make their choice between cruelty free meat or complete veganism, i reckon i know which one they will choose. Not to mention all the vegetarians and vegans that will probably convert back to eating meat once it can be made safely in a lab.

    Also please answer what you think of PETA being in favour of lab meat? These guys do a wonderful job for animal welfare and they seem to have accepted science in this case.

    So you've gone from claiming that no nutritionist in the world would agree with me to claiming 'oh, no nutritionist, apart from those who are highly qualified and at respectable universities, because their work can be discredited by reference to independent persons/organisations who, for private purposes, promote a diet high in animal-protein'.
    The vast majority then if you're going to be pedantic.

    Now, as I said, I don't think your argument about the 'healthiness' of chicken/fish has any force if, as I have claimed, a) the amount of animal foods consumed must be minimal for such a diet to be healthy; and b) diets without those things can be healthy. I'm not sure what your point is here.
    a) There's no proof that anything more than minimal amounts of animal products is unhealthy and b) i already said i agreed with, depending hugely on the foods that you eat within that diet.

    I've never said eating meat is healthier than not eating it, but you appear to be saying exactly the opposite. I say both can be healthy or unhealthy so it's pointless trying to argue veganism from a nutritional point of view.


    I would really like to see what you think is so self-evidently good about absolutely owning other creatures. There are plenty of problems that stem from pet ownership, such as:

    a) 'Puppy mills', and their analogues for other animals.
    b) The widespread cruelty that such animals suffer.
    c) The fact that animals are often neglected in their basic needs because they are treated as existing for the benefit of humans.

    But above all, I don't think these are the most fundamental considerations. I've spoken about babies, and how it's not acceptable to just treat them as means to our own ends. I think the same about animals. This has implications for how we act towards animals - we can't just claim to own animals, stick them in our homes or in cages, just because we think it might be fun for us.
    The majority of pet owners treat their animals well. Why not just go after the people who treat their animals badly or educate people about better ways of taking care of their pets. Such a radical solution of banning pets is never going to happen.
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    (Original post by KellySapphire)
    funny you would say that because both me and my friend are meat-eaters who are attempting to become veggies (for at least a week) any advice?
    I have some advice if you'd like.
    I'm not fully vegetarian yet but I have tried many times in the past but have always failed but my strategy now seems to be working. I started giving up one thing at a time. I first gave up seafood (which I like the least) and then I gave up everything apart from chicken. This has been working quite well so far(only lost control twice and ate bacon haha) Maybe this might help

    I'm gonna start giving up chicken.....verrrryy slowly haha
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    (Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
    A black person can naturally synthesize vitamin D (an essential nutrient) from the sun in areas with plenty of sun, like in Africa. But by moving to Europe, the person puts himself in a position where he has to rely on supplements for his nutrition. I really don't see how you've made a compelling case for the difference.
    This is entirely and completely false, it's harder for POC to synthesize vitamin D from sunlight, but they still only need about half an hour in the sunlight every day to do it (as opposed to 15 minutes which is enough for a lighter skinned person) - regularly exposing your skin to 'plenty of sun' is a lot more dangerous than taking vitamin D supplements anyway.
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    Im veggie but many moan that i might be stricter then other veggies, by not eating sweets ect that have animal products in but i still eat takeaways and veggie sweets ect. anyone here the same.

    Ill eat stuff with milk and eggs in ect, But not gelatin or any other of those nasty surprises :/
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    (Original post by orange'94)
    Im veggie but many moan that i might be stricter then other veggies, by not eating sweets ect that have animal products in but i still eat takeaways and veggie sweets ect. anyone here the same.

    Ill eat stuff with milk and eggs in ect, But not gelatin or any other of those nasty surprises :/
    Hey I'm the same as you most of my mates think I'm crazy for being so strict on sweets etc when it comes to geletine and other nasty things.
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    (Original post by Rhi_Chemo)
    Hey I'm the same as you most of my mates think I'm crazy for being so strict on sweets etc when it comes to geletine and other nasty things.
    yeah its still has a dead animal in it , well thats how i look at it, but then they say why do you eat junk food then. vegetarian does not just eat healthy food.
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    (Original post by orange'94)
    Im veggie but many moan that i might be stricter then other veggies, by not eating sweets ect that have animal products in but i still eat takeaways and veggie sweets ect. anyone here the same.

    Ill eat stuff with milk and eggs in ect, But not gelatin or any other of those nasty surprises :/
    I'm the same. I never used to be strict with gelatine at all, but now I am. I won't eat anything with gelatine or whey (which has cut out a lot of chocolate and ice cream products from my diet! )
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    (Original post by andyyy)
    This is entirely and completely false, it's harder for POC to synthesize vitamin D from sunlight, but they still only need about half an hour in the sunlight every day to do it (as opposed to 15 minutes which is enough for a lighter skinned person) - regularly exposing your skin to 'plenty of sun' is a lot more dangerous than taking vitamin D supplements anyway.
    If you could, I'd like to see where you got that recommendation from - I can't find any page that suggests that, and I can see plenty that suggest supplementation. And actually, many countries have mandated that certain staple foods be fortified with vitamin D for all people, because deficiency is widespread.

    But even so, this is a side issue. My main point is that we can make choices that force us to rely on technology, even to assist us with our nutrition. I've asked TomClarky many times to explain why it is wrong to do so, but he's yet to answer the question. That is the case even if you prove that black people aren't at risk of deficiency in Europe (especially in the more northern countries).
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    (Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
    I've asked TomClarky many times to explain why it is wrong to do so, but he's yet to answer the question.
    I don't have anything against people supplementing their diet, just don't come on here with a self-righteous attitude that your diet is better than a meat eating one.
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    I'm veggi. Have been for about a year now. Just stopped eating meat and meat products one day. Haven't looked back since.
    The only problem is that I find it really hard to find food that I can store here with only having a fridge and no freezer. Would like to find some nice dishes that I can cook that are quick, easy and healthy. Anyone got any suggestions?
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    (Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
    If you could, I'd like to see where you got that recommendation from - I can't find any page that suggests that, and I can see plenty that suggest supplementation. And actually, many countries have mandated that certain staple foods be fortified with vitamin D for all people, because deficiency is widespread.

    But even so, this is a side issue. My main point is that we can make choices that force us to rely on technology, even to assist us with our nutrition. I've asked TomClarky many times to explain why it is wrong to do so, but he's yet to answer the question. That is the case even if you prove that black people aren't at risk of deficiency in Europe (especially in the more northern countries).
    Really, which countries? Cancer Research UK document on vitamin D says two important things:
    1) widespread food fortification is a really bad idea because too much vitamin D is toxic:

    There is not enough evidence to support a recommendation for food fortification or widespread vitamin D supplementation for the general population. Unlike vitamin D produced in the skin, there is the potential that vitamin D from supplements and fortificants could build up to toxic levels and there is not enough evidence about the possible risks of raised vitamin D blood levels in the general population over a long period of time.


    2) most people get enough vitamin D from being outside for a few minutes:

    the best estimates suggest that for most people, everyday casual exposure to sunlight is enough to produce vitamin D in the summer months, provided optimal environmental conditions. The area of skin exposed will also influence the amount of vitamin D made after sun exposure. In a recent study, Caucasian British people were given a simulated dose of a summer exposure to sunlight, while dressed in casual summer clothes that revealed a third of their skin. These controlled conditions (the equivalent of 13 minutes of midday exposure to the summer sun given three times a week for six weeks during winter) raised 25(OH)D levels to greater than 50nmol/L in 90% of people and greater than 70nmol/L in 26% of people. The true amount of time may be greater and will vary depending on other factors including posture, time of day, outdoor activities, and the presence of shading structures.

    That study was made on British Caucasians (since most Brits are Caucasians), but there plenty of articles only which say that people with darker skin simply need to spend more time in the sun, e.g. this one.
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    Veggie is good, had a ridiculously good curry last night with Quorn faux-chicken and ghost chilli. Felt it this morning mind ;_;

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