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Christians who believe in common descent

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    I know there is a lot of PC type stuff when dealing with things like this. Yet I want to know, truly know the answer to this question. How do you reconcile common descent with God's word?



    You see, our whole problem when it comes to sin, is our condition. The word sin means to miss the mark. What this ultimately shows us is that our whole being was corrupt at Adam's fall. This includes our bodies. So in essence, our bodies are not the way God created them, hence their off the mark. (The Bible says that our flesh is at enmity with God. Think about it, once we die and go to Heaven, do you think we will still be having these sinful thoughts and temptations? Why not? It's because we put off these bodies)



    Now, if common descent is true, and we evolved to where we are today, then there is no problem whatsoever. We are as God created us. So again, how do you reconcile the two?



    PS: Evolution is true, and it is mentioned in the Bible. Common descent, meaning everything evolved from a single group of living organisms, is not in the Bible.
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    I know there is a lot of PC type stuff when dealing with things like this. Yet I want to know, truly know the answer to this question. How do you reconcile common descent with God's word?



    You see, our whole problem when it comes to sin, is our condition. The word sin means to miss the mark. What this ultimately shows us is that our whole being was corrupt at Adam's fall. This includes our bodies. So in essence, our bodies are not the way God created them, hence their off the mark. (The Bible says that our flesh is at enmity with God. Think about it, once we die and go to Heaven, do you think we will still be having these sinful thoughts and temptations? Why not? It's because we put off these bodies)



    Now, if common descent is true, and we evolved to where we are today, then there is no problem whatsoever. We are as God created us. So again, how do you reconcile the two?



    PS: Evolution is true, and it is mentioned in the Bible. Common descent, meaning everything evolved from a single group of living organisms, is not in the Bible.
    Hello Okashira,

    Cool thread. I am curious though where evolution is mentioned in the Bible? Thanks.

    Peace and God bless you
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    >Evolution is mentioned in the bible

    nope
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Okashira,

    Cool thread. I am curious though where evolution is mentioned in the Bible? Thanks.

    Peace and God bless you



    One area is with the snake. All of creation was cursed when Adam fell, but as we know, one of the ways the snake was cursed is it lost the use of it's legs. I imagine as time moved forward, snakes evolved (adapted) to the point where they lost those limbs altogether.



    We see after the flood, humans began to live shorter lives. I imagine we lost the ability to use certain features during that time, and we adapted to how we look today in the present. Evolution is all about adaptation, and these are just some examples in the Bible.
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    Where is evolution mentioned in the Bible?
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    What this ultimately shows us is that our whole being was corrupt at Adam's fall. This includes our bodies. So in essence, our bodies are not the way God created them, hence their off the mark. (The Bible says that our flesh is at enmity with God. Think about it, once we die and go to Heaven, do you think we will still be having these sinful thoughts and temptations? Why not? It's because we put off these bodies)
    Hello again,

    I love your statement above!!! That's something that's so fascinating to me, that our bodies right now -with decay and disease, is not how God originally created us to be!

    As for your questions to Christians who do not believe in evolution, I can't answer that because I do believe God used micro-evolution in the Creation, but I have friends/family members who believe in common descent, which I think is fine for them to believe. None of us were there so... all beliefs (including scientific theories) are mere speculation. Unless scientists can somehow succeed in manipulating time and going back in time, collecting data to bring back to provide evidence for their theory, then all people will just basically have their own beliefs as to the origin of the earth. Is it wrong for Native Americans, for example, to believe the origin of human life on earth was one way and for Christians to believe the origin of human life on the earth is another way and for Hindus to believe the origin of human life on the earth was another way and for Atheists to believe the origin of human life on the earth is still another way? I don't think so. I think it only becomes an issue when people start killing people over it. However, what's awesome is when people can agree to disagree.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    One area is with the snake. All of creation was cursed when Adam fell, but as we know, one of the ways the snake was cursed is it lost the use of it's legs. I imagine as time moved forward, snakes evolved (adapted) to the point where they lost those limbs altogether.
    Hello Okashira,

    Ahh ok. So it is indirectly mentioned then? I do believe as well that before the "Fall", that the animals God created were not carnivores. I believe God created all animals, including humans, to eat vegetation instead of each other. What do you think?

    I believe that after Adam and Eve disobeyed that one commandment God gave them and ate from that tree, then that is when God killed the first animal.

    I also believe that after the flood, that is when God allowed animals to eat other animals and gave animals to be food to people.

    To me this is sad, hence the frownie faces. I am curious as to what you believe about that, but if you disagree, that's fine and I respect what you think/believe.

    Two of my favorite passages in the Bible are concerning where animals and humans live together without fear of being hurt by the other!

    Isaiah 11 (NIV) - I boldened some.

    " 1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
    from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
    2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
    the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
    the Spirit of counsel and of might,
    the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD—
    3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.

    He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
    or decide by what he hears with his ears;
    4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
    with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
    He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
    with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
    5 Righteousness will be his belt
    and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

    6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
    the leopard will lie down with the goat,
    the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
    and a little child will lead them.
    7 The cow will feed with the bear,
    their young will lie down together,
    and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
    8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
    and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
    9 They will neither harm nor destroy
    on all my holy mountain,

    for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
    as the waters cover the sea.

    10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. "

    and Isaiah 65 (NIV) - I boldened some.

    "17 “See, I will create
    new heavens and a new earth.
    The former things will not be remembered,
    nor will they come to mind.

    18 But be glad and rejoice forever
    in what I will create,
    for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
    and its people a joy.
    19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
    and take delight in my people;
    the sound of weeping and of crying
    will be heard in it no more.

    20 “Never again will there be in it
    an infant who lives but a few days,
    or an old man who does not live out his years;
    the one who dies at a hundred
    will be thought a mere child;
    the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
    will be considered accursed.
    21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
    they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
    22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
    or plant and others eat.
    For as the days of a tree,
    so will be the days of my people;
    my chosen ones will long enjoy
    the work of their hands.
    23 They will not labor in vain,
    nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
    for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
    they and their descendants with them.
    24 Before they call I will answer;
    while they are still speaking I will hear.
    25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
    and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
    and dust will be the serpent’s food.
    They will neither harm nor destroy
    on all my holy mountain,”
    says the LORD. "


    We see after the flood, humans began to live shorter lives. I imagine we lost the ability to use certain features during that time, and we adapted to how we look today in the present. Evolution is all about adaptation, and these are just some examples in the Bible.
    Ok. Accepted and understood, though again, evolution is not directly mentioned in the Bible. However, I do think it can be understood indirectly. Thanks for explaining.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello again,

    I love your statement above!!! That's something that's so fascinating to me, that our bodies right now -with decay and disease, is not how God originally created us to be!

    As for your questions to Christians who do not believe in evolution, I can't answer that because I do believe God used micro-evolution in the Creation, but I have friends/family members who believe in common descent, which I think is fine for them to believe. None of us were there so... all beliefs (including scientific theories) are mere speculation. Unless scientists can somehow succeed in manipulating time and going back in time, collecting data to bring back to provide evidence for their theory, then all people will just basically have their own beliefs as to the origin of the earth. Is it wrong for Native Americans, for example, to believe the origin of human life on earth was one way and for Christians to believe the origin of human life on the earth is another way and for Hindus to believe the origin of human life on the earth was another way and for Atheists to believe the origin of human life on the earth is still another way? I don't think so. I think it only becomes an issue when people start killing people over it. However, what's awesome is when people can agree to disagree.

    Peace and God bless you




    I agree in not killing each other over these things , but what kind of an example to the world are we when there is so much dispute within the body of Christ? I figure the only reason why most Christians believe in common descent, is because they don't want to look like fools in public. Yet, they don't understand the truth of accepting this theory known as common descent.



    First of all, it's science's best guess at how everything came to be. They see the common traits all living things share, they look at ERVS (Endogenous Retrovirus), and other commonalities to come to the conclusion we all descended from a single group of organisms. Yet they don't have access to all the information concerning the past, only what's left today concerning the past. That is not enough. Second of all, this theory crushes everything concerning God's word, including salvation. As I said, if we are the way God created us today (through common descent), there is absolutely nothing wrong with us when it comes to sin. We are as God created us. This is what most Christians don't understand.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Okashira,

    Ahh ok. So it is indirectly mentioned then? I do believe as well that before the "Fall", that the animals God created were not carnivores. I believe God created all animals, including humans, to eat vegetation instead of each other. What do you think?
    I think you're half right on that one. God did initially create mankind to eat plants. However, as Christians, we obey Jesus Christ. Whatever the old laws were, are now superseded by Jesus. The main point of Jesus was that following the old law would not get your redemption from sin. Thus, following Jesus and accepting Him as your saviour is literally the only requirement to get forgiveness of sin. Anything else (eating kosher food, following the laws, etc) is all auxiliary.

    It is important to make the distinction because as all Christians know very well...if you follow the old laws extremely closely, but refuse to accept the Messiah as your holy saviour from sin, then all that adherence to law is futile. Thus, it doesn't matter whether you eat meat or you don't...that criteria is not what determines your relationship with God.
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    I agree in not killing each other over these things ,
    Hello Okashira,

    !

    but what kind of an example to the world are we when there is so much dispute within the body of Christ?
    Sad but true

    I figure the only reason why most Christians believe in common descent, is because they don't want to look like fools in public. Yet, they don't understand the truth of accepting this theory known as common descent.
    I think many Christians who sincerely believe it have reasons for believing it. Others are taught it and accept it. Others just don't care. So, it really depends on the individual as to why they believe something.

    For example, there are some parts of Christian doctrine I personally do not believe, because of reasons that to me, are valid. For example, I lean more to the belief of Judaism concerning what is hell. Many Christians very much disagree with me over that, which is fine. Sad to say, a long time ago, people condemned others as heretics for believing something different, no matter what their reasons for their differences in beliefs.


    First of all, it's science's best guess at how everything came to be. They see the common traits all living things share, they look at ERVS (Endogenous Retrovirus), and other commonalities to come to the conclusion we all descended from a single group of organisms. Yet they don't have access to all the information concerning the past, only what's left today concerning the past. That is not enough.
    Agreed. And also, right now scientists cannot manipulate or observe all dimensions. It would be interesting if they could, however.
    Second of all, this theory crushes everything concerning God's word, including salvation. As I said, if we are the way God created us today (through common descent), there is absolutely nothing wrong with us when it comes to sin. We are as God created us. This is what most Christians don't understand.
    I think they have reasons as to why they believe in common descent. However, I understand your point that we are not how God originally created us to be. However, regardless as to what one believes about that or not, I do believe that it's following Jesus that counts for Christians, not so much what we don't understand.

    Sometimes there are things I don't understand, like why it's so important to love one's enemies. However, when thinking about the pros and cons, i do understand a little bit better that loving one's enemies protects oneself from hatred and sin, so even when it's hard to understand something, following Jesus does have logic, though others might not appreciate the logic behind some commands.

    Peace and God bless you
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    Did god give our common ancestor the original sin then? That's a bit mean... it didn't even have eyes

    ps who said the flood actually happened?
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    (Original post by chickenonsteroids)
    Did god give our common ancestor the original sin then? That's a bit mean... it didn't even have eyes

    ps who said the flood actually happened?
    Um, are you trying to trivialize things intentionally or are you just ignorant?

    How and why would God "give" the original sin? Do you even know what the original sin refers to? What exactly do you mean by "give"?

    The original sin was man's disobedience to God's commandment. That's it in its most simple terms. God said to not eat from the tree of knowledge...man did. Disobedience = sin --> results in --> disconnect from God = Hell.

    Not sure which part of the original sin was "given" by God.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    I think you're half right on that one. God did initially create mankind to eat plants. However, as Christians, we obey Jesus Christ. Whatever the old laws were, are now superseded by Jesus. The main point of Jesus was that following the old law would not get your redemption from sin. Thus, following Jesus and accepting Him as your saviour is literally the only requirement to get forgiveness of sin. Anything else (eating kosher food, following the laws, etc) is all auxiliary.

    It is important to make the distinction because as all Christians know very well...if you follow the old laws extremely closely, but refuse to accept the Messiah as your holy saviour from sin, then all that adherence to law is futile. Thus, it doesn't matter whether you eat meat or you don't...that criteria is not what determines your relationship with God.
    Hello Exe,

    One reason why I eat fish is because Jesus helped catch fish and also cooked and ate fish lol.

    I understand your point. however, I personally don't believe that Jesus superceded the Old Testament. I believe he fulfills the prophesies, but that it is perfectly fine for Jewish people to continue following the commands of God that He gave to Moses and the Israelites. Since I'm not Jewish, i don't worry about it.

    Interestingly, God gave Peter the vision with the unclean animals in it, which was a surprise to Peter, since Peter was a Jewish man who obeyed the Tanakh. He told God that he had never eaten something unclean.

    However, it is possible he did not understand what Jesus said, accounted in Mark 7.

    Mark 7 (NIV) - I boldened some.

    " 14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” [16] [f]

    17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

    20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”


    It says in parenthesis that "Jesus declared all foods clean", but obviously Peter didn't understand that. In Acts 15, there was a disagreement between Jewish believers in Jesus over Gentile believers... whether they had to follow the Law or no.

    Because of the vision God gave him, Peter stood up for the Gentile believers not having to be circumcised (and obey all the Tanakh), which is very interesting to me.

    So personally, I believe that Gentiles don't have to follow the Law of Moses. However, I think it's fine for Jewish people to do so if they believe that is the right thing for them to do. Some Jewish people who believe Jesus is the Messiah do not cast aside their traditions and the commandments they believe God wants them to follow as the Jewish people. I know some and they are very interesting people. Sometimes they are insulted by Jewish people who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they take it in stride.

    But I believe you are right, that following the Law is not what saves one. However, I do believe there were valid reasons for God giving them commands, and I believe that all people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah should obey what Jesus said, because Jesus said that those who love him obey him. Jesus did not say to eat pork, by the way, but I do believe it's ok for people to do so if it doesn't hurt their conscience.

    By the way, do you believe that in Heaven, we will eat meat?

    To the OP, is it ok that I get off topic a little here, or do you prefer us to stick to the topic on your thread? Thanks.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    To the OP, is it ok that I get off topic a little here, or do you prefer us to stick to the topic on your thread? Thanks.

    Peace and God bless you


    Yeah I would like it to stay on topic. Still haven't heard from Christians who believe in common descent.
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    Yeah I would like it to stay on topic. Still haven't heard from Christians who believe in common descent.
    Hello Okashira,

    Ok. No problem.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    Yeah I would like it to stay on topic. Still haven't heard from Christians who believe in common descent.
    Can you please define common descent? Before I say anything I want to have the definition right. Thanks.
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    Evolution is true, and it is mentioned in the Bible.
    Where?????

    Nowhere. Genesis is very clear and is ordered completly different from the order of evolution e.g

    Bible

    1. earth created before sun and stars
    2. Land plants were earths first life
    3. Creation is finished

      (Genesis 2:1 KJV) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.


    Evolution
    1. Sun and stars existed long before the earth
    2. Marine orginisms were earths first life
    3. Evolutionary "creation" is ongoing


    There are many more but it give you an idea of how incompatible they are. If Genesis was not literal it would at least get the order right.

    Also a day is 24 hours not millions of years (or a period of time)

    A final thought; Death is a necessary part of the evolutionary process but in the Bible death is a curse on what was "very good", death did not enter the world until Adam according to the Bible, there was no death (whether you take Genesis as literal or not)

    Therefore the Bible does not allow evolutionary interperatation at all.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Can you please define common descent? Before I say anything I want to have the definition right. Thanks.


    Common descent says every living on this planet, originated from a single group of living organisms. In essence, if I ever swat a fly, I just killed my long distant cousin. The Bible paints another picture. Instead of there being one common anscestor, God created the original set of life on this earth. Adam is every human's common ancestor. While all the birds share common ancestors. (God created many different kinds of birds at creation, so all birds today go back to that set of birds God created) And so on and so forth.






    Scientists see evolutionary history as a tree. All life today is simply a branch from that one tree. Yet the Bible presents there were many trees at the beginning of creation. For example all men and women are a branch of the human tree, while all lizards and reptile have their own tree, so on and so on.






    (Original post by gltw)
    Where?????

    Nowhere. Genesis is very clear and is ordered completly different from the order of evolution e.g

    Bible
    1. earth created before sun and stars
    2. Land plants were earths first life
    3. Creation is finished

      (Genesis 2:1 KJV) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    Evolution
    1. Sun and stars existed long before the earth
    2. Marine orginisms were earths first life
    3. Evolutionary "creation" is ongoing
    There are many more but it give you an idea of how incompatible they are. If Genesis was not literal it would at least get the order right.

    Also a day is 24 hours not millions of years (or a period of time)

    A final thought; Death is a necessary part of the evolutionary process but in the Bible death is a curse on what was "very good", death did not enter the world until Adam according to the Bible, there was no death (whether you take Genesis as literal or not)

    Therefore the Bible does not allow evolutionary interperatation at all.


    You have to go back and read the OP. I'm asking Christians who believe in common descent history, how do they reconcile it to our history with God? Also, you're confusing common descent with evolution. They are not the same thing necessarily. When scientists think of common descent, they think of all living things coming from a single group. Yet all evolution is, is adaption for the most part. There is plenty of adaptation in the Bible. In fact, if we didn't adapt, we would all be dead even now.
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    In fact, if we didn't adapt, we would all be dead even now.
    Explain? What do you mean by evolution?
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    Common descent says every living on this planet, originated from a single group of living organisms. In essence, if I ever swat a fly, I just killed my long distant cousin. The Bible paints another picture. Instead of there being one common anscestor, God created the original set of life on this earth. Adam is every human's common ancestor. While all the birds share common ancestors. (God created many different kinds of birds at creation, so all birds today go back to that set of birds God created) And so on and so forth.
    Sorry mate I am confused about your definition. Are you saying that all the different species we see around us today are descendents of the species that God created in the beginning?

    Or are you saying that God created 1 single group of organisms before and we all descended from that single group?

    If you are saying both things, then you are contradicting yourself because either God created multiple organisms or created single organism. It can't be both.

    My understanding from the Bible is that God created multiple different species (so for example God created zebras and giraffes and monkeys, etc, etc)

    Over time, certain species died out, naturally or artificially via hunting/starvation/habitat destruction, etc. Thus, the species we see today are the remaining species from all those that God had created in the beginning.

    Also, I don't see where you example about killing a fly equating to you killing your distant cousin comes in. Are you suggesting that at some point the fly evolved into a human being? I am really confused about your point but I'll say this. If you suggest that killing a fly = killing a long distant cousin...then you are arguing from the evolutionist's perspective, not creationists. Either God created all species or he didn't. I don't believe that those two concepts mix.

    I do however agree that over time, through mutations within the code and through environmental factors, certain species were able to adapt to changes in environment. So for example, if God created a monkey in the beginning with lots of hair..and over time the monkey lived in very hot environment...the monkey adapted by reducing the amount of fur on its body.

    Please clarify your point further because I am still confused. As it stands, it seems to your that your points are contradictory. Thanks.

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