[.eXe]

(Original post by Xotol)
Jesus' teachings are wonderful. You do not need to be a Christian, however, to appreciate and admire them. It's not like atheists cannot take lessons from religions and adopt (some of) them, but it is precisely the supernatural that is nonsense. From a robust and skeptical standpoint, it is a superfluous view of reality.

Whether Jesus is real or not is irrelevant. His teachings, just as many other prophets, religions and world views, can be learned from. The rubbish from Christianity and the other religions can be thrown out too. All with one goal: to create a better society.

There is no need for Jesus to be divine - not if you accept that humans have the capacity to empathise and love. These teachings were born from that capacity.



This reasoning you have adopted is called 'delusion'.

'Meaning' does not have to be inherent - it can be extrisincally added. Sure, you may act all emo when you realise that religion is a waste of time for the first few weeks, but you get over it. There's a life to live, so your comments about 'waiting for death' are nonsense as far as I'm afraid.

Okay well that's a fundamental difference of opinion then, you are entitled to yours and I to mine. To me, meaning is inherent in Christianity. If you think its extrinsically motivated then by all means, believe that.

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by .eXe)
Not necessarily true because here's the way I see it....

Let's say the atheists are right and there's not God. Let's say everything supernatural is BS and that believing in a God is foolish.

Fine.

However, how does doing that change the fact that Jesus was the best model on Earth of how a human should be? How does not believing in God that in any way whatsoever infringe on the perfect life that Jesus lived, the teaching of love, compassion, empathy and forgiveness that he embodied.

Even if God doesn't exist mate...it would have no difference on Christians because we follow Jesus, in whom we see perfection. Even if atheists are right and there is no God, that's not deterrent enough for Christians to leave Jesus' teaching so you are wrong entirely.

Secondly, if there is no God and the message of forgiveness of sin that Jesus preached was unsubstantiated, then we are all screwed anyways. There's no life after death, we are all just living to one day return to the earth in a grave or have our cells burned into the wind. Life then is just a waiting game before death comes calling. Just embrace nihilism and wait for death to arrive because what is then the purpose of life? Where is the meaning? Why even have meaning? It's not like it's going to lead to anywhere...because without God, we are just going to cease to exist at death and our lives will have all been a waste.

If you prefer this, then by all means all the power to you. But please don't assume that just because your opinion is right to you, that it can be generalized to everyone, especially not Christians because we have a model of perfection we can follow, and gain some meaning from that. You on the other hand...are living just to live and when you die, you will have been 1 in a 100 billion other humans who have inhabited this planet...worthless.

Ooh, misrepresentations, acrobatics, red herrings and straw men! My point exactly.

[Reform]

(Original post by Xotol)
Jesus' teachings are wonderful. You do not need to be a Christian, however, to appreciate and admire them. It's not like atheists cannot take lessons from religions and adopt (some of) them, but it is precisely the supernatural that is nonsense. From a robust and skeptical standpoint, it is a superfluous view of reality.

Whether Jesus is real or not is irrelevant. His teachings, just as many other prophets, religions and world views, can be learned from. The rubbish from Christianity and the other religions can be thrown out too. All with one goal: to create a better society.

There is no need for Jesus to be divine - not if you accept that humans have the capacity to empathise and love. These teachings were born from that capacity.



This reasoning you have adopted is called 'delusion'.

'Meaning' does not have to be inherent - it can be extrisincally added. Sure, you may act all emo when you realise that religion is a waste of time for the first few weeks, but you get over it. There's a life to live, so your comments about 'waiting for death' are nonsense as far as I'm afraid.

What about if meaning is inherent and the day you have been promised comes to pass?

Simple question with dire consequences.

One question, what exactly led you to leaving the religion?

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by killa78)
They're insecure about their faith so they try to bash others to make themselves feel better lol.
Your point is certainly true.

I've noticed that there also aren't really (or I haven't come across) any threads made by Muslims bashing Christianity. Quite ironic

Christianity isn't as easy a target as Islam, and Muslims tend to not be the brightest of the bunch, ken.

[.eXe]

(Original post by FrigidSymphony)
Ooh, misrepresentations, acrobatics, red herrings and straw men! My point exactly.

It's okay if you have nothing to say in return.

I notice on other threads as well, you usually make a charged point, then sit back and wait for the responses, and then you make a gibberish statement like the one above and leaver it at that.

Nice little system you have going Very efficient. Too bad it doesn't convey a single point

[Reform]

(Original post by .eXe)
I don't consider Islam a religion and therefore I have no issue arguing against it.

Notice, I do respect those ideologies which I consider religions (for example buddhism, sikhism, judaism, etc).

I don't ever argue against them but that doesn't mean I have nothing to argue about. I respect those beliefs as religions. I don't respect Islam as a religion.

Also, feel free to say anything against Christianity as you wish, if I see it I promise to answer to the best of my ability.

Lol what?

How can you not see Islam as a religion?

I'm actually starting to believe you fear Islam and what it provides. Perhaps you may have recognised it is the truth.

Sure you may acknowledge the other ideologies because you deem them as nothing other than false (excluding Judaism).

As for your last point, we'll debate after my exams are finished. My issue here isn't with debating but rather the way in which you debate.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Reform)
Lol what?

How can you not see Islam as a religion?

I'm actually starting to believe you fear Islam and what it provides. Perhaps you may have recognised it is the truth.

Sure you may acknowledge the other ideologies because you deem them as nothing other than false (excluding Judaism).

As for your last point, we'll debate after my exams are finished. My issue here isn't with debating but rather the way in which you debate.

Lol so by your logic I fear it because I understand it?

You know what...you might be right. Because Islam at its core is something to be feared. Which is why it doesn't deserve a place in society. Especially seeing what it is capable of

And yes, to your last point, my approach may not be perfect but I believe in speaking my mind over pleasing the reader.

[Reform]

(Original post by .eXe)
What are you talking about? What a stupid statement.

Just because I argue against an ideology automatically means I hate the people who follow that ideology? How the hell does that make any sense?

I go against my friends all the time (most of them are muslim) but that doesn't mean I don't love them as friends. What a nonsense statement. You are under the assumption that hating an ideology = hating the adherents. What a tool.

(Original post by killa78)

I thought their version of Jesus preached love for all as well.

Guess they refuse to follow the teachings he actually bought

Arguing against anything in the way you do will obviously cause conflict with other users on the site.

That's another thing I don't understand. If Jesus loves everyone and Jesus is God, why are people going to hell?

[killa78]

(Original post by .eXe)
What are you talking about? What a stupid statement.

Just because I argue against an ideology automatically means I hate the people who follow that ideology? How the hell does that make any sense?

I go against my friends all the time (most of them are muslim) but that doesn't mean I don't love them as friends. What a nonsense statement. You are under the assumption that hating an ideology = hating the adherents. What a tool.

If you hate an ideology. You hate what it teaches.
When people practice what it teaches you certainly can't like them because that's what you're against. Lol.

and clearly, your inciting hatred here because religion is a very personal issue. By trying to come up with stupid arguments, you know you're annoying people.

How is that love?
How is that turning the other cheek?
Loving thu neghbour?
Agape?

[killa78]

(Original post by FrigidSymphony)
Christianity isn't as easy a target as Islam, and Muslims tend to not be the brightest of the bunch, ken.

I can't say I agree with you on that

But each to their own (Y)

[Reform]

(Original post by .eXe)
Lol so by your logic I fear it because I understand it?

You know what...you might be right. Because Islam at its core is something to be feared. Which is why it doesn't deserve a place in society. Especially seeing what it is capable of

And yes, to your last point, my approach may not be perfect but I believe in speaking my mind over pleasing the reader.

You in no way shape or form understand it. You believe you do but truthfully most of the stuff you say have no basis in Islam.

Also, if you did, you would've reverted.

[Xotol]

(Original post by Reform)
What about if meaning is inherent and the day you have been promised comes to pass?

Simple question with dire consequences.

It's a pretty useless question.

What if Thor was real and came to pass judgement on you for believing in another God?

There are a number of questions that can be posed with dire consequences. It's just not worth the time to consider without valid evidence. Of course, I do not deny the possibility that your God exists, but, from the evidence I have seen, there is no reason for me to choose your one over any other. So, there is no reason for me to give thought to your question.

I'll admit I'd be screwed if Allah did exist, but I'm not even sure I'd passionately believe in Allah if I find enough evidence. I simply cannot reconcile my morals with the criteria for entering heaven or hell. It's despicable as far as I'm concerned.

One question, what exactly led you to leaving the religion?

Lack of evidence.

[gunit123]

Christianity is simple - all words and no substance. You say u believe in God but is that it? What do u actually do? Go to Sunday Church School for half an hour?

All i have heard is "God is this, God is that" "Jesus did this, Jesus did that" but Christians don't even carry out these practices in their daily lifestyle. Heck, muslims are more "Christian" than Christians themselves.

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by .eXe)
I don't consider Islam a religion and therefore I have no issue arguing against it.

Notice, I do respect those ideologies which I consider religions (for example buddhism, sikhism, judaism, etc).

I don't ever argue against them but that doesn't mean I have nothing to argue about. I respect those beliefs as religions. I don't respect Islam as a religion.

Also, feel free to say anything against Christianity as you wish, if I see it I promise to answer to the best of my ability.

Brilliant! I don't consider you a person, so I have no qualms about punching you in the face.

Out of curiosity, what are your standards for considering something a "religion"? Chances are if Islam doesn't meet them, neither would Christianity.

[gltw]

(Original post by gunit123)
Christianity is simple - all words and no substance. You say u believe in God but is that it? What do u actually do? Go to Sunday Church School for half an hour?

All i have heard is "God is this, God is that" "Jesus did this, Jesus did that" but Christians don't even carry out these practices in their daily lifestyle. Heck, muslims are more "Christian" than Christians themselves.

You obviously have never met many Christians then. That is Christians who are born-again by the spirit of God, not the general term "Christian".

Church lasts longer than half an hour. Christian life involves a genuine holiness that comes from God, being in constant communion and prayer with God, studying his word regularly, soaking oneself in the scriptures, holding them in the heart to use against Satan. It is not about going to church, reading your bible every now and then and praying a few times everyday. Islam is simply religion, with its rules and restrictions, it's compulsory vain prayers, like all other religion. Christianity sets you free.

Muslims are hardly better "Christians" if they reject him as the promised messiah and deny his crucifixion. They reject Jesus Christ so God will reject them.

[gltw]

(Original post by Reform)
If Jesus loves everyone and Jesus is God, why are people going to hell?

Because God is a just judge. He cannot simply allow people to sin against him without them facing the consequences otherwise God would not be the perfect being that He is. For example, a judge does not judge defendants by what good they have done but for the crime they have committed, if that judge allowed the individual freedom on the basis of what good they have done then he would be corrupt. He must punish them to exercise his justice.

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by gltw)
Christianity sets you free.

Doesn't sound like it, from your description. Are you aware that Muslims would provide the exact same arguments, simply with the religion's names inverted?

[gltw]

(Original post by FrigidSymphony)
Doesn't sound like it, from your description. Are you aware that Muslims would provide the exact same arguments, simply with the religion's names inverted?

But Jesus Christ takes away the burden of sin, pain and death. God has given those born-again by the work of the Holy Spirit a new life, a complete change of mind and affections. Christians are no longer subject to the law but now we desire to serve God because he is worthy of us devoting our lives to. Man's chief aim is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Before I was born-again I found it difficult to understand but now God has shown me what he can do.

Muslims cannot claim this.

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by gltw)
But Jesus Christ takes away the burden of sin, pain and death. God has given those born-again by the work of the Holy Spirit a new life, a complete change of mind and affections. Christians are no longer subject to the law but now we desire to serve God because he is worthy of us devoting our lives to. Man's chief aim is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Before I was born-again I found it difficult to understand but now God has shown me what he can do.

Muslims cannot claim this.

No, but they could claim that Islam or submitting or Allah or whatever does the same thing. Can you prove that you're right and they're not?

[.eXe]

(Original post by FrigidSymphony)
Brilliant! I don't consider you a person, so I have no qualms about punching you in the face.

Out of curiosity, what are your standards for considering something a "religion"? Chances are if Islam doesn't meet them, neither would Christianity.

You really don't have much to say do you? How is what I said analogous to a physical attack on a person? I'm talking about attacking ideologies, you are comparing them to a physical attack.

I think in your own mind you think of yourself as smart and witty

Nevertheless, I'll PM you a response to your question since you have asked me directly.