The Commons Bar Mk VI
TSR's model parliament.
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIshe wasn't a tyrant though, she continued to be elected by the people. She ruled as a democratically elected leader, it was, if you look at it in political terms, what the people had indicated they wanted.(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
I'm not sure they're comparable examples. Tony Benn, Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband had nothing like the effect on British society that she and her policies did. None of the Left has ever openly declared war on an entire section of society and then used institutions of the state to batter them into submission, as she did. Many of us are glad when tyrants die, the sentiment in her case - especially from areas like mine - is no different. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIYou're all an absolute bunch of idiots if you think for one second that celebrating the prospect of Thatcher dying is akin to desiring a person's death.
When people, myself included, pledge to dance on Thatcher's grave, we say so facetiously. There's no malicious intent, only a tongue-in-cheek exaggerated resentment of a figurehead completely deserving of such vehement dislike for what she did.
Ding dong the witch is dead, or at least will be.Last edited by JPKC; 09-05-2012 at 20:51. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIMany tyrants were first put there by the people, don't forget. But I wasn't using tyrant literally, it was a metaphor for how she is perceived in parts of the country.(Original post by Moleman1996)
she wasn't a tyrant though, she continued to be elected by the people. She ruled as a democratically elected leader, it was, if you look at it in political terms, what the people had indicated they wanted. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIbut she never tried to remove the democratic process.(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Many tyrants were first put there by the people, don't forget. But I wasn't using tyrant literally, it was a metaphor for how she is perceived in parts of the country.
And that's still no excuse for wishing her dead. To refer to her as a tyrant suggests that she is as bad as people such as Adolf Hitler and Muammar Gadaffi, and is almost insulting those oppressed and killed by true tyrants. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VINo, not Blairite at all. And thanks for the reply either way, people have been leaving discussions mid-day for a while so I'm getting bored! (I have no exams). You know though, libertarians aren't actually opposed to this mutualised model of business, we just don't think it should be imposed through the force of law. I think that, in a free market, all sorts of business models would thrive, and I certainly wouldn't be averse to that model being the dominant one, if society deems it [through mutual corporation rather than force] to be the best model.(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Sorry it's taken a few days to get back to you. Capitalism can be controlled through a number of mechanisms: ones grounded in popular social democracy and ones grounded in bottom-up alternatives to big business and corporatism. The former are mostly focused on redistribution of wealth, abolition of private alternatives to state education, health and pensions, and the removal of barriers to equal and fair access to the same. That is, no internal competition between NHS trusts, no grammar schools, and a standard state pension set at a level which provides a fair standard of living to all members of society. So you might say that an all-embracing, cradle-to-grave welfare state is one mechanism of controlling the ill effects of capitalism. I have in mind, of course, the Scandinavian model of high tax and high spend welfarism. The second mechanism, as I say, is based on bottom-up alternatives to the way capitalism operates today. By this I mean the mutualisation of capital through the establishment of consumer-producer co-operatives and the like. Part of what makes capitalism so very dangerous in its unfettered form is the breakdown of what was once known as "the social". Mutualised alternatives feed on the collective dynamics of socialised enterprise and I would use the power of the state to support it. Now before you go off on your "collective farms" nonsense, that isn't what I mean. Instead, I mean a model of consumer-producer relations based on the ideas of the Rochdale Pioneers. And there are many branches off that basic model which feed into areas aside from retail and production of consumables. Consumer credit and banking are obvious ones in that regard. Now, does that sound very Blairite to you?
I think most libertarians would also agree that the current system really does break down what is 'the social', but that's the problem with capitalism, not genuinely free markets. You will never see me defend the status quo, but I also think that the solutions to humanity's problems are best found through voluntary social corporation and exchange. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIWell yes, she did. She removed the democratically-elected GLC and, as documents demonstrated, would happily have starved Liverpool City Council of money in order to force the end of Militant. Not exactly respecting the democratic process that.(Original post by Moleman1996)
but she never tried to remove the democratic process.
Hitler, as I enjoy pointing out to people, was elected by a democratic vote. Tyrant he was, sure, but an elected one nonetheless. A tyrant oppresses their people in a variety of ways. To name but two: it is through the tyranny of unemployment and wiping out the staple industry of a region with no wish to replace it; or it is through violence and erradication of opposition. I wish nobody dead but, as I say, I make no bones about being glad of her passing and the ending of that era of horror for many ordinary Britons.And that's still no excuse for wishing her dead. To refer to her as a tyrant suggests that she is as bad as people such as Adolf Hitler and Muammar Gadaffi, and is almost insulting those oppressed and killed by true tyrants. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIMy point is, she wasn't elected and then clung to power until forced from it. She lost the support of her party and the public, and left.(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Well yes, she did. She removed the democratically-elected GLC and, as documents demonstrated, would happily have starved Liverpool City Council of money in order to force the end of Militant. Not exactly respecting the democratic process that.
Hitler, as I enjoy pointing out to people, was elected by a democratic vote. Tyrant he was, sure, but an elected one nonetheless. A tyrant oppresses their people in a variety of ways. To name but two: it is through the tyranny of unemployment and wiping out the staple industry of a region with no wish to replace it; or it is through violence and erradication of opposition. I wish nobody dead but, as I say, I make no bones about being glad of her passing and the ending of that era of horror for many ordinary Britons. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIWell she clung to power until forced from it by those in the Conservative Party who turned on her. She would have carried on for several more years given the opportunity to.(Original post by Moleman1996)
My point is, she wasn't elected and then clung to power until forced from it. She lost the support of her party and the public, and left. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIYou sick bastard(Original post by Morgsie)
I said if true, hooray.
No that is not what anyone on the right would do, you are a sick individual!(Original post by Morgsie)
I would like to apologise for my comments. If a left wing figure passed away then some on the right would do exactly the same. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VICalm Down. I think you are just overreacting as usual at a comment Morgsie has regretted and apologised for.(Original post by tehFrance)
You sick bastard
No that is not what anyone on the right would do, you are a sick individual! -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIregardless of whether he's overreacting or not, how long will the Lib Dems allow this to continue before removing him and trying to save what's left of their party? Every time he says something like this I cringe for you Lib Dems.(Original post by cab12)
Calm Down. I think you are just overreacting as usual at a comment Morgsie has regretted and apologised for. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIThis is certainly not an overreaction!
Were i to make derogatory comments spouting racist and homophobic nonsense then i would expect to be looked down upon, sacked as an MP and probably party member and generally not have any respect.
The comments made by Dangermouse and Morgsie were vile and repugnant, not meant as tongue in cheek and are extremely pathetic. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VII'm sorry, but you know this how? I would be almost certain that they were meant as tongue in cheek, and were not seriously wishing her dead.(Original post by Rakas21)
The comments made by Dangermouse and Morgsie were vile and repugnant, not meant as tongue in cheek and are extremely pathetic. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VILeave them be sanctimonious, it reflects more on their own hypocrisy than anything else.(Original post by sandys1000)
I'm sorry, but you know this how? I would be almost certain that they were meant as tongue in cheek, and were not seriously wishing her dead. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIBoth have admitted so stating 'but the right would do the same if a leftie died'. They were meant with malice and have substantially lowered my level of respect for themselves and the parties they represent(Original post by sandys1000)
I'm sorry, but you know this how? I would be almost certain that they were meant as tongue in cheek, and were not seriously wishing her dead. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIWelcome back to the MHoC! Ex-Centre Party am I right?(Original post by cab12)
Calm Down. I think you are just overreacting as usual at a comment Morgsie has regretted and apologised for. -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIOne of the last leaders, if not the last, of the Centre Party I think.(Original post by MacCuishy)
Welcome back to the MHoC! Ex-Centre Party am I right? -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIThanks and yeah I was.(Original post by MacCuishy)
Welcome back to the MHoC! Ex-Centre Party am I right? -
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Re: The Commons Bar Mk VIHe wasn't a tyrant when he was elected (even though he wasn't truly elected, he became chancellor almost by default). He was a tyrant because the first thing he did was use emergency powers to strip away basic rights of the German people.(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Hitler, as I enjoy pointing out to people, was elected by a democratic vote. Tyrant he was, sure, but an elected one nonetheless. A tyrant oppresses their people in a variety of ways. To name but two: it is through the tyranny of unemployment and wiping out the staple industry of a region with no wish to replace it; or it is through violence and erradication of opposition. I wish nobody dead but, as I say, I make no bones about being glad of her passing and the ending of that era of horror for many ordinary Britons.
