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Questioning Islam: If it's not a choice to be gay then how could it possibly be haram

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    (Original post by badcheesecrispy)
    Yes he would because as has been explained already a CHILD can start puberty and still be a child in all other ways. My sister, I have explained this before, started puberty at about 11, periods at 12 yet she was still like a little girl, often playing with dolls. The thought of her married then makes me feel sick. The same thought goes through my head now as she is 16 and STILL isnt ready for marriage.

    Also, if you think this is ok you'd be fine with your own daughter marrying at 9 to some old pervert. doubt it somehow, unless you are that deluded into thinking a 9 year old who has started growing boobs is ready for sex, marriage and children.
    I think we simply don't know if Aischa had sexual intercourse with the Prophet.

    The sources on Aisha is the Hadith, which are texts collected about Muhammad about a 100 or 200 years after his death. We don't know how accurate they are, but they are generally seen to be quite trustworthy, but they are at best second-hand accounts.

    Some sources agree on that Muhammad and Aisha was engaged when she was 6 years old. But they can be separated according to who is the original source. Many of them attribute themselves to Aisha herself. She consistently says that she moved into Muhammad's household at the age of 9. No quote attributed to her says that the marriage was consummated at that (or any other) time.

    Other quotes do say that is was consummated when she was nine. But the question then is how they know? Reasonably only Muhammad and Aisha knew. And the question also arises to what "consummated" means. In western tradition the marriage is consummated when you have intercourse. I can't find any source that says what word is used in the Arabic originals, so I don't know if the implications are the same.

    Also, Aisha never had any children. But she used her position as Muhammads wife to wield power after his death, claiming to be his favorite wife in some of the quotes above. With her youth combined with the fact that she had no children, it might have been that people claimed that their marriage had never been consummated in an effort to minimize her influence. In that case of course other trustworthy people would have to step up and say that it was consummated. And since the culture at this time had no qualms about marriages to children, they didn't claim that it was consummated when she was 18 (at which point Muhammad was dying anyway) but more realistically that it was consummated when she joined Muhammad's household. And today people then go "Ugh, child molester!" as a result.

    But in the end, the only sources we have are third-hand sources saying that the marriage was consummated when she was nine, although we don't know exactly what that means, and we can't be sure what happened, because only Aisha and Muhammad knew for sure, and they didn't say.
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    (Original post by squishy123)
    I would ask how you know all this information about your sister but then I am afraid of your reply.

    And why you bringing your sister into this anyway?



    Why are you making it personal?

    If girls had finished puberty by the age of 7, would you advocate them getting married at 8 or 9?
    No I wouldnt because as I keep saying puberty is not an indicator of mental emotional or psychological maturity. Why cant you grasp that this is why there are age of consent laws everywhere? By are you so blind to the fact this is wrong and is classed as paedophilia, just because your prophet did it?

    Ermmm....well maybe because she was acting such a bitch for ages, crying all the time and very moody, and I also noticed extra womans things in the bathroom. My mum told me, .....Its quite easy to know these sort of things when you live in a close family.

    Anyway, why would you mind this anyway seeing as though you advocate incest and paedophilia? Surely you wouldnt have minded me ****ing my pubescent sister seeing as though its ok to you? Feel sick, and thats just from your opinions.

    Now, go away with your weird 15th century backward views
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    (Original post by badcheesecrispy)
    No I wouldnt because as I keep saying puberty is not an indicator of mental emotional or psychological maturity. Why cant you grasp that this is why there are age of consent laws everywhere? By are you so blind to the fact this is wrong and is classed as paedophilia, just because your prophet did it?
    Age of consent =/= woman

    Ermmm....well maybe because she was acting such a bitch for ages, crying all the time and very moody, and I also noticed extra womans things in the bathroom. My mum told me, .....Its quite easy to know these sort of things when you live in a close family.
    Incestuously "close", If you wanted my opinion.

    Anyway, why would you mind this anyway seeing as though you advocate incest and paedophilia? Surely you wouldnt have minded me ****ing my pubescent sister seeing as though its ok to you? Feel sick, and thats just from your opinions.
    Pedophilia - PRE-PUBESCENT. Sex with girls who have not reached puberty. Demonstrate that Prophet Muhammad had "sex with a girl"?

    Now, go away with your weird 15th century backward views
    Says the person who goes through his sister's intimate "objects".
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    (Original post by squishy123)
    A female is only a girl if she has not passed through puberty yet. A WOMAN is a female who HAS PASSED THROUGH PUBERTY.
    A nine year old is never going to be someone who's "passed through" puberty, they are going to be someone who has not even started puberty, or has only JUST started puberty.

    A NINE year old CAN'T be a WOMAN. You are insane.

    (Original post by squishy123)
    Pedophilia: Sex or sexual activity with children who have not reached puberty.

    If Aisha had reached puberty at the age of 9, as many children EVEN NOW do, would that make Muhammad a pedophile bearing in mind the definition?
    Think about it logically and then reply.
    So Allah sanctions sex with anyone, as long as they've just started puberty.

    This may include 9 year olds, or even 5,6,7,8 year olds which have been known in the past to start puberty early. So basically Allah sanctions having sex with children. You can't deny this because this is YOUR OWN logic.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    So Allah sanctions sex with anyone, as long as they've just started puberty.

    This may include 9 year olds, or even 5,6,7,8 year olds which have been known in the past to start puberty early. So basically Allah sanctions having sex with children. You can't deny this because this is YOUR OWN logic.
    I think what she is saying is according to Islam once a girl starts puberty she is no longer a child but a woman. Hence, her insistence that Aisha was not a child.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    A nine year old is never going to be someone who's "passed through" puberty, they are going to be someone who has not even started puberty, or has only JUST started puberty.

    A NINE year old CAN'T be a WOMAN. You are insane.
    So how can a 5/6/7/8 year old get PREGNANT?

    Do you not possess BIOLOGICAL knowledge?

    So Allah sanctions sex with anyone, as long as they've just started puberty.

    This may include 9 year olds, or even 5,6,7,8 year olds which have been known in the past to start puberty early. So basically Allah sanctions having sex with children. You can't deny this because this is YOUR OWN logic.
    And the "West" doesn't?

    Take a look at the nationalities and you'll see the vast majority is from the Western hemisphere. What does that say....
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    (Original post by squishy123)
    So how can a 5/6/7/8 year old get PREGNANT?

    Do you not possess BIOLOGICAL knowledge?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._birth_mothers


    (Original post by squishy123)
    And the "West" doesn't?

    Take a look at the nationalities and you'll see the vast majority is from the Western hemisphere. What does that say....
    Did you actually just contradict yourself? :lolwut: You say 5,6,7,8 year olds can't get pregnant then you post a list of 5,6,7,8 years olds getting pregnant...

    Stop attacking a straw man. Where did I say it doesn't happen in the west? What has that got to do whether its accepted in Islam?

    Stop avoiding the question, having sex with a nine year old is accepted in Islam. Is it or isn't it? Because it clearly is but you don't want to admit it.
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    It seems you are using your own sources to contradict yourself?

    Giving me that list of Birth mothers (which I have repeatedly given to you much earlier) actually disproves this point that you have made. As you can clearly see, the earliest RECORDED BIRTH MOTHER is FIVE (5) Years old which suggessts that in certain circumstances, girls mature at a much younger age into women:

    "A nine year old is never going to be someone who's "passed through" puberty, they are going to be someone who has not even started puberty, or has only JUST started puberty. "

    My response to this was sarcastic and I provided a source: How can a 5/6/7/8 year old get pregnant if they have not gone through puberty?

    Did you actually just contradict yourself? :lolwut: You say 5,6,7,8 year olds can't get pregnant then you post a list of 5,6,7,8 years olds getting pregnant...
    Not it seems YOU did...

    Stop attacking a straw man. Where did I say it doesn't happen in the west? What has that got to do whether its accepted in Islam?
    Oooh big words. Maybe if you actually took a glance at that list, 4 (FOUR) out of 186 (ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX) birth mothers were from Muslim Majority countries.

    Does that suggest that it is more acceptable in Islam or it is more acceptable in the Western Hemisphere?

    Stop avoiding the question, having sex with a nine year old is accepted in Islam. Is it or isn't it? Because it clearly is but you don't want to admit it.
    Sex with a female who has undergone puberty is ALLOWED. Nothing more, nothing less.
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    (Original post by yomomalomo)
    I am saying that being homosexual i.e attracted to the same sex, is not a conscious choice. It is possible/arguable that some animals actually do have a conscience and act or feel according to that, however the feeling of sexual attraction is instinctual in both humans and other animals.

    You can argue then about the morality of acting on this impulse or instinct but that isn't what I'm talking about here. I just wanted to clear up that homosexuality isn't really a choice, because you seemed slightly unsure about this in some of your posts.
    Hmm, I'm not entirely sure as to whether it is or not, and you're not clearing anything up just by me taking your word for it not being a choice.

    What factors make it not a choice?

    If these factors are environmental such as upbringing and childhood, then surely you then open up for any environmental factors as not being choice.

    (Also, tell me if you're are going to mention epigenetics because doesn't epigenetics depend on the genetic code already present in the genome, so epigenetics deals with the expression of the genes and does not actually alter the genome)
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    (Original post by squishy123)
    It seems you are using your own sources to contradict yourself?

    Giving me that list of Birth mothers (which I have repeatedly given to you much earlier) actually disproves this point that you have made. As you can clearly see, the earliest RECORDED BIRTH MOTHER is FIVE (5) Years old which suggessts that in certain circumstances, girls mature at a much younger age into women:
    You don't become a "woman" just because you start puberty at age 9, or 4/5/6/7/8 for that matter. If you think a bit of menstrual bleeding is what turns a child into a woman, you are deluded.

    wom·an/ˈwo͝omən/
    Noun:
    An adult human female.
    A female worker or employee

    You don't magically become a fully developed grown adult just because you start menstruating because of an abnormal illness at age 4. :rolleyes:

    (Original post by squishy123)
    "A nine year old is never going to be someone who's "passed through" puberty, they are going to be someone who has not even started puberty, or has only JUST started puberty. "

    My response to this was sarcastic and I provided a source: How can a 5/6/7/8 year old get pregnant if they have not gone through puberty?

    Not it seems YOU did...
    Those 5/6/7/8 year olds were suffering from an abnormality called precocious puberty. It's not normal and can cause many difficulties. It is sometimes triggered by a tumour or serious defect in the brain.

    5/6/7/8 year olds normally are nowhere near starting puberty.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precocious_puberty

    But you are pretty much evading the question, now you are saying paedophilia is permitted in Islam because a 4 year old MIGHT start puberty if they have some abnormal condition...:rolleyes:

    (Original post by squishy123)
    Oooh big words. Maybe if you actually took a glance at that list, 4 (FOUR) out of 186 (ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX) birth mothers were from Muslim Majority countries.

    Does that suggest that it is more acceptable in Islam or it is more acceptable in the Western Hemisphere?

    Sex with a female who has undergone puberty is ALLOWED. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Whether it happens in any hemisphere is besides the point to whether it's accepted in Islam... stop trying to change the subject. It's like pointing to the numbers of murders in Christian countries and then saying that murder is fine in Christianity. It's beyond stupid.

    A nine year old will not have "undergone" puberty, they might have or very rarely have just started it where its more common after the age of 13. You really need to do some year 9 biology because your knowledge is severely lacking.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    You don't become a "woman" just because you start puberty at age 9, or 4/5/6/7/8 for that matter. If you think a bit of menstrual bleeding is what turns a child into a woman, you are deluded.

    wom·an/ˈwo͝omən/
    Noun:
    An adult human female.
    A female worker or employee

    You don't magically become a fully developed grown adult just because you start menstruating because of an abnormal illness at age 4. :rolleyes:
    You want to know my reply to this, seriously?

    Now maybe you should go and search up the definition for an ADULT which YOU conveniently highlighted. Wikipedia defines it as:

    "An adult is a human being or living organism that is of relatively mature age, typically associated with sexual maturity and the attainment of reproductive age."

    Those 5/6/7/8 year olds were suffering from an abnormality called precocious puberty. It's not normal and can cause many difficulties. It is sometimes triggered by a tumour or serious defect in the brain.

    5/6/7/8 year olds normally are nowhere near starting puberty.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precocious_puberty

    But you are pretty much evading the question, now you are saying paedophilia is permitted in Islam because a 4 year old MIGHT start puberty if they have some abnormal condition...:rolleyes:
    PROVE TO ME EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE "young mothers" WERE SUFFERING FROM WHAT YOU CLAIM, PRECOCIOUS PUBERTY.

    Then maybe we'll start taking your arguments seriously.

    And for the record, pedophilia is having SEX with PRE-PUBSCENT FEMALES. These females are what you might call "girls". And if you disagree, DEMONSTRATE WHERE ISLAM says it's "okay to have sex with pre-pubscent girls".......................

    Whether it happens in any hemisphere is besides the point to whether it's accepted in Islam... stop trying to change the subject. It's like pointing to the numbers of murders in Christian countries and then saying that murder is fine in Christianity. It's beyond stupid.
    It's a valid comparison in any ones eyes. In Islam, as I have stated on numerous occasions, sex with a female who has developed into a woman biologically speaking is allowed.

    Now that I've told you Islam's view, what is the WESTERN Hemisphere's view on this type of behavior?

    A nine year old will not have "undergone" puberty, they might have or very rarely have just started it where its more common after the age of 13. You really need to do some year 9 biology because your knowledge is severely lacking.
    Wikipedia, as previously suggested to you, disagrees with you and as would most of the world.

    Just a snippet: "Researchers have identified an earlier age of the onset of puberty. However, they have based their conclusions on a comparison of data from 1999 with data from 1969. In the earlier example, the sample population was based on a small sample of white girls (200, from Britain). The later study identified as puberty as occurring in 48% of African-American girls by age nine, and 12% of white girls by that age"
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    Please stay on topic guys.
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    (Original post by weirdnessandcoffee)
    It's not allowed. That's it. Simple.
    Get over it. Religion isn't gonna change for you, what's the point in criticising it at the end of the day? A few arguments, a bunch of negs, 'thinking your doing something for humanity'.
    Too many posts bashing Islam. Just give it a break. Mostly all religions discourage homosexuality. Why Islam in particuluar?

    LOVE THE NEGS.
    I agree with you..

    number of women more than men, Allah is very fair, 1 man can marry with 4 women, and there is no reason to choose to be gay
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    [QUOTE=badcheesecrispy;37348474]why was the prophet muhammed, who muslims are meant to base their lives/values on, a paedophile that married a 9 year old? Also why is child marriage allowed/legal in many muslim countries?

    why are so many muslims involved in cousin marriages then?[/QUOTE

    Im not muslim but even I know that about 2000 years ago child marrages were acceptable not just in islam but in countries like greece, spain and other part of europe where children were married off at an early age....it was only about 300
    Years ago this practice was begining to be frowned upon since people lifes spans began to increase so before you start thinking islam are all peadophiles do your history on the world.
    Further more cousin marraiges (althoughh I dont agree with them) were a perfectly acceptable part of british culture until the early 1900s YES THATS RIGHT THE BRITISH GOT WITH THIER COUSINS TOO....due too greater understandings of science....the practice of cousin marragies has been done since pre egyption times and was practiced by jews christians not just muslims.....it is just a culture thing tbh thats why people practice it. As these communities dont want people outside the family sphere to gossip about thier families...to do with honor..
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    Woaaaah this thread went way way way off-topic ... but anyways!

    We don't choose plenty of things, but it doesn't mean they're not necessarily haraam. :confused: A better question to ask would be, "If being gay doesn't harm anyone, then why is it haraam?"

    And the answer is, it isn't ... probably! There is only one little part in the entire Quran that vaguely addresses homosexuality, and it's one of the verses about Lot. It's very vague and ambiguous and could be interpreted in any number of ways. There's no Islamic verse that explicitly says, "Don't sleep with people of the same-gender!!! It's bad!!!"

    The main bulk of anti-gay Islamic views stems from the hadiths I'd say, and they're not very credible in my opinion. Most of the hadiths are like, "So and so person heard so and so person hear Mohammed say so and so about so and so topic" - hardly what I'd call an authentic recount. They were all collected after Mohammed died too so they could all be incorrect for all we know. I'm not saying disregard ALL the hadiths, but I think we should take them with a grain of salt at the very least.

    Bottom line is, nobody is being harmed at all in any shape or form, when it's between two consenting adults. There isn't some "gay virus" that's going to infect all of mankind and turn everyone gay if people started accepting homosexuality.
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    (Original post by idh)
    I agree with you..

    number of women more than men, Allah is very fair, 1 man can marry with 4 women, and there is no reason to choose to be gay
    Um, don't know about that but my point is that people should stop bashing islam.
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    (Original post by TheGrinningSkull)
    ...
    I really don't understand why you are having such a hard time with this. When I say it is not a choice I mean that being attracted to the same sex is generally not a conscious decision. The same as for most heterosexual people in that being attracted to the opposite sex is not a conscious decision.

    I'm straight, when I first started puberty I used to get aroused if I saw a beautiful woman. I did not consciously decide for my penis to become erect, if anything it was something that I did not want to happen, especially as in public places it can be rather awkward. This is the same thing that happens to homosexuals, except that they get aroused by members of the same sex.

    Secondly, are you serious trying to claim that homosexuality is merely the result of epigenetics? For this to be true, then all homosexual's must have received the effects of some epigenetic agent. One that for some reason cancels the natural attraction instinct (heterosexual). As far as I am aware, homosexuals seem to exist in many countries, with different diets, different lifestyles, different upbringings, cultures and so on. For this reason it would be silly to try and claim that purely someone's upbringing (or other environmental factor) disables certain genes, or alters their activation, making them homosexual. Rather, it seems for to be a complex interplay of a lot of factors - many of which are not due to environmental influences.
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    (Original post by yomomalomo)
    I really don't understand why you are having such a hard time with this. When I say it is not a choice I mean that being attracted to the same sex is generally not a conscious decision. The same as for most heterosexual people in that being attracted to the opposite sex is not a conscious decision.

    I'm straight, when I first started puberty I used to get aroused if I saw a beautiful woman. I did not consciously decide for my penis to become erect, if anything it was something that I did not want to happen, especially as in public places it can be rather awkward. This is the same thing that happens to homosexuals, except that they get aroused by members of the same sex.
    Yea, this makes sense, thank you for actually clarifying because people actually never even mention this (you're the first to come up with this point as I haven't seen anyone else here mention this before), I've never heard this point before so it really does make sense. So the choice in the end comes down to acting upon the feeling.
    Secondly, are you serious trying to claim that homosexuality is merely the result of epigenetics? For this to be true, then all homosexual's must have received the effects of some epigenetic agent. One that for some reason cancels the natural attraction instinct (heterosexual). As far as I am aware, homosexuals seem to exist in many countries, with different diets, different lifestyles, different upbringings, cultures and so on. For this reason it would be silly to try and claim that purely someone's upbringing (or other environmental factor) disables certain genes, or alters their activation, making them homosexual. Rather, it seems for to be a complex interplay of a lot of factors - many of which are not due to environmental influences.
    That's what I'm getting at.
    I never claimed epigenetics causing homosexuality, people who were saying that homosexuality wasn't a choice said (many times and different people too) that it was due to epigenetics from twin studies etc. Which only recently did I realise that it does not make sense at all.

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