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Questioning Islam: If it's not a choice to be gay then how could it possibly be haram

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    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    Because it's paedophilia today, not back then when girls matured far quicker to growth of females back then as life expectancy was far lower so maturity was quicker and due to climate in the Middle east. Your comparing by todays standards which is totally wrong and doesn't actually if any sense of what happened.
    prove this, this is just islamic speculation which i have heard before.

    it could be true but i doubt the many uneducated muslims will realise this. Unless it says in quran 'this book is from ***AD, is outdated and is not correct 2000 years on'

    Also please see the muslim forum i posted inwhich 2 muslims are at odds on the islamic legality of cousin marriage, one person posts Hadith where muhammed says not to do it, the other says that Muhammed was married to a first cousin-

    'Also, if it is, does it not contradict what we know about Fatima & Ali's marriage, & Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) & Zainab's marriage?

    Because we know that Ali was Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s first cousin & he was married to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s daughter Fatima, also Zainab was Prophet Muhammad'(pbuh)s wife & also his first cousin.'

    again, who is right on this matter?
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    (Original post by Bohedie)
    pedophilia, incest and necrophillia attractions are disturbing whether acted on or not :/ you cannot possibly place child abuse, disrespecting the dead and 'interbreeding' into the same sphere as homosexuality.
    Well, it's not according to me that pedophilia is considered a sexual orientation, just like Homosexuality. I'm not the man in the white coat.

    http://www.good.is/post/is-pedophili...erry-sandusky/
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    (Original post by saim101)
    Any1 who has EVER done biology will know that the main point of us is to produce of springs. Being gay does NOT allow you to produce of springs, therefore your genes will not get passed on. If your genes don't get passed on how can you say "I was born gay."
    Being gay is a CHOICE, it's not forced upon you
    ...wow. Being gay is not a choice. My personal belief is that it is a chemical (namely hormonal) imbalance, everyone has their theories -yours is wrong for the record- but frankly it doesn't matter. They are people like everyone else and all I have met have been wonderful people.

    Also this planet is having a population crisis. We are beyond living to reproduce we aren't rabbits we have established ourselves at the top and need to manage the effect we are having on this world. We have a vast population we can't afford and a lot of the poorer communities have children faster than we can get aid there. We need less children being born, maybe the gay population is actually helping us to survive on this planet in the long term in that respect.
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    (Original post by bad8oy)
    being gay is not genetic because identical twins who have the same genetic make up, one of them are gay and the other is not. Therefore being gay is not genetic therefore it is not natural.
    You don't have any idea about epigenetics, so please, don't bother trying that argument.

    And if it's so unnatural why do we have examples of homosexuality in nature? Meaning, non- human animals.
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    (Original post by weirdnessandcoffee)
    It's not allowed. That's it. Simple.
    Get over it. Religion isn't gonna change for you, what's the point in criticising it at the end of the day? A few arguments, a bunch of negs, 'thinking your doing something for humanity'.
    Too many posts bashing Islam. Just give it a break. Mostly all religions discourage homosexuality. Why Islam in particuluar?
    Oh look, we have here another close-minded individual who doesn't like to question why she does what she does. Islam in particular because I happen to be a muslim, but you're quite good in judging that I must applaud you for.
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    (Original post by Ayshizzle)
    You don't have any idea about epigenetics, so please, don't bother trying that argument.

    And if it's so unnatural why do we have examples of homosexuality in nature? Meaning, non- human animals.
    for the same reason (what ever that reason may be) humans are gay.
    therefore i personally think its enviromental and if being homosexual was natural then why cant 2 males reproduce????
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Firstly, Incest thing has been explained above.

    Secondly, learn what Pedophilia is.

    here all you've done is post the mental profile of a paedophile. totally ignoring the fact that paedophilia is an attraction to pre pubescent children. 9 is pre pubescent my friend.



    Sahih Al-Bukhari
    Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299:
    Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
    (on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

    Is this a Hadith? How can you prove it is correct? Also I am supposed to believe this means Prophet wasnt technically a paedophile, no matter how long ago it was?


    Further reading.
    [/U][/B][/INDENT]
    Thirdly, Regarding his marraige to Aisha(ra) - Read this.

    Maturity, physicality and capabilities are the requirements for marraige in Islam, not any particular age.

    you could do to use less colours, it doesnt make your point any more valid and just makes it complicated to reply to. Also, muslim response is a bias muslim site and as this is often used when debating islam, I will use it now as it is to biased so cannot be taken seriously. Also I just posted a forum where 2 muslims are at odds on these issues. I am fairly certain either way no muslim knows what they are truly following, and no version of islam is the right one.


    Such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern West. - Colin Turner, Islam: The Basics, Routledge Press, pp. 34-35


    Fourthly, most Muslim countries have marraige laws that are 15+, including Saudi Arabia going up to 18+.
    Egypt just knocking theirs down to 14, which is still a teen girl who is emotionally unfit for marriage. This is child abuse, as well as the fact the girl barely gets to choose who she marries.

    Colin Turner? Do you understand your hypocrisy when you post quotes from people from 1000s of years ago, some random author (I think?), and expect me to take it all as true fact, yet never take any other sources seriously anyone opposing islam posts?
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    (Original post by badcheesecrispy)
    prove this, this is just islamic speculation which i have heard before.

    it could be true but i doubt the many uneducated muslims will realise this. Unless it says in quran 'this book is from ***AD, is outdated and is not correct 2000 years on'

    Also please see the muslim forum i posted inwhich 2 muslims are at odds on the islamic legality of cousin marriage, one person posts Hadith where muhammed says not to do it, the other says that Muhammed was married to a first cousin-

    'Also, if it is, does it not contradict what we know about Fatima & Ali's marriage, & Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) & Zainab's marriage?

    Because we know that Ali was Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s first cousin & he was married to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s daughter Fatima, also Zainab was Prophet Muhammad'(pbuh)s wife & also his first cousin.'

    again, who is right on this matter?
    It's not speculation, when I saw research before about how climate of the middle east affect maturity.

    The Qu'ran is not outdated, because it states that you shouldn't be getting married until you have given consent to it and also reached the age of puberty, and over time as we live longer, etc people mature later, hence why getting married very young today is wrong compared to the past.

    A forum doesn't automatically mean what's been said is correct at all, it's a platform where a lot of people different backgrounds are speaking. Also like to point out that the hadith itself doesn't ban the practice, it rather makes sure that it is not encouraged, you should read the websites you post.
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    (Original post by ANIGAV)
    Oh look, we have here another close-minded individual who doesn't like to question why she does what she does. Islam in particular because I happen to be a muslim, but you're quite good in judging that I must applaud you for.
    Why thank you. Seriously though- I'm close minded because?? Did I even state my view? No, I didn't, did I? I stated Islam's view. Sure, I'm a muslim as well, I respect gays and lesbians. I've questioned why I don't think being gay is something scientific, because I believe it's a mix of both. I stated religions views on it. Not mine, get over it.

    Oh, and you really saw the need to fault your own religions views on TSR? Thank you. For another mind dumbingly Islam bashing thread.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Maturity, physicality and capabilities are the requirements for marraige in Islam, not any particular age.


    Such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern West. - Colin Turner, Islam: The Basics, Routledge Press, pp. 34-35
    Err, some scientific evidence please? I doubt that the maturation process of humans has slowed that much in 1400-1500 years. It's highly likely that Aisha was prepubescent.

    And while it's true that the historical context did not render marriage to young girls improper, Muhammad is meant to be beyond historical context, surely? He was God's prophet, and yet it was okay for him to obey the morals of the period of time he lived in rather than God's?

    (Original post by Bohedie)
    ...wow. Being gay is not a choice. My personal belief is that it is a chemical (namely hormonal) imbalance, everyone has their theories -yours is wrong for the record- but frankly it doesn't matter. They are people like everyone else and all I have met have been wonderful people.

    Also this planet is having a population crisis. We are beyond living to reproduce we aren't rabbits we have established ourselves at the top and need to manage the effect we are having on this world. We have a vast population we can't afford and a lot of the poorer communities have children faster than we can get aid there. We need less children being born, maybe the gay population is actually helping us to survive on this planet in the long term in that respect.
    That does appear to be the most rational hypothesis for the existence of homosexuals in nature.
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    (Original post by GrowingNinja)
    Islam does not condemn naturally being attracted to the same sex, however it does condemn the act of fulfilling those urges therefore it is not a sin to be simply be attracted to the same sex which as you say sometimes is not a choice.
    That Sir, is quite the astonishing logic. Oh so God makes just a few people homos and tells them to not have sex? Why, because those people need to be tested more than others? How could you stop these feelings that God made in the first place.
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    (Original post by weirdnessandcoffee)
    It's not allowed. That's it. Simple.
    Get over it. Religion isn't gonna change for you, what's the point in criticising it at the end of the day? A few arguments, a bunch of negs, 'thinking your doing something for humanity'.
    Too many posts bashing Islam. Just give it a break. Mostly all religions discourage homosexuality. Why Islam in particuluar?
    So you're saying we should just blindly accept everything put in front of us? I don't know about you, but I'd rather everything was criticised and scrutinised (particularly religion, which holds ridiculous amounts of power and affects the lives of billions of people in the way no government can) than not at all.

    Also for 'It's not allowed. That's it', you're not really doing your religion any favours. I don't think many people are going to take your beliefs overly seriously when you just accept them on the basis of 'That's it'.
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    (Original post by bad8oy)
    being gay is not genetic because identical twins who have the same genetic make up, one of them are gay and the other is not. Therefore being gay is not genetic therefore it is not natural.
    When one twin is gay then 50% of the time the other twin is gay too. Obviously if it was 100% based on genes then the other twin would also be gay 100% of the time. But it still shows that there is a genetic component.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Well, it's not according to me that pedophilia is considered a sexual orientation, just like Homosexuality. I'm not the man in the white coat.

    http://www.good.is/post/is-pedophili...erry-sandusky/
    that's a theory not scientific proof. he says himself in the article that he doesn't know what causes someone to become a pedophile. He also never states his findings as facts using phrases like 'it appears' and says his tests 'aren't perfect'.

    Do you think Freud was correct because he was a psychologist? in that case you are sexually attracted to your mother and have been since birth. Just because one guy suggests it it does not mean it's true.

    Also this hasn't been published by any reputable British paper...
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    (Original post by weirdnessandcoffee)
    Why thank you. Seriously though- I'm close minded because?? Did I even state my view? No, I didn't, did I? I stated Islam's view. Sure, I'm a muslim as well, I respect gays and lesbians. I've questioned why I don't think being gay is something scientific, because I believe it's a mix of both. I stated religions views on it. Not mine, get over it.

    Oh, and you really saw the need to fault your own religions views on TSR? Thank you. For another mind dumbingly Islam bashing thread.
    Yes, you are close-minded because you did not state your view but rather went ahead and assumed I'm trying to bash Islam because I am questioning it. I am aware of Islam's View which is the reason I asked? it's pretty straightforward and logical, maybe you lack common sense, that I do not know and I am not going to assume you do because I actually do.
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    (Original post by tieyourmotherdown)
    So you're saying we should just blindly accept everything put in front of us? I don't know about you, but I'd rather everything was criticised and scrutinised (particularly religion, which holds ridiculous amounts of power and affects the lives of billions of people in the way no government can) than not at all.

    Also for 'It's not allowed. That's it', you're not really doing your religion any favours. I don't think many people are going to take your beliefs overly seriously when you just accept them on the basis of 'That's it'.
    Well, to be honest- I'm sick of it. Religious scriptures aren't gonna change. Fault yesterday, and move on. The best we can do is learn from them. Yes, religion effects many people- we shouldn't blindly accept it, thats out of context from my statements, what I'm saying that-yes- it's there, now what? Argue over it? It won't change. So, you try and change peoples opinions in a non religious way basically. Yes, it states this and that in the Qu'ran, Bible, Torah, Vedas etc etc, and it shows past mentalities.
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    (Original post by saim101)
    Any1 who has EVER done biology will know that the main point of us is to produce of springs. Being gay does NOT allow you to produce of springs, therefore your genes will not get passed on. If your genes don't get passed on how can you say "I was born gay."
    Being gay is a CHOICE, it's not forced upon you
    Ahh the ramblings of the uneducated. (Any1.....really?)

    Please, enlighten us, why would someone choose to become something that makes them subject to discrimination, bullying and ridicule? Why would they choose to become something that most religions condemn? Why do countless teenagers commit suicide because they are gay, surely they could just 'change back'? Oh yes, that's right, THEY DON'T CHOOSE.

    Quite clearly you need to familiarise yourself with biology before you come on here and tarnish the subject with your idiotic, misinformed ramblings.
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    (Original post by weirdnessandcoffee)
    Why thank you. Seriously though- I'm close minded because?? Did I even state my view? No, I didn't, did I? I stated Islam's view. Sure, I'm a muslim as well, I respect gays and lesbians. I've questioned why I don't think being gay is something scientific, because I believe it's a mix of both. I stated religions views on it. Not mine, get over it.

    Oh, and you really saw the need to fault your own religions views on TSR? Thank you. For another mind dumbingly Islam bashing thread.
    I'd also like to add that if you want to continue to cry about why I asked this on TSR then you can do so somewhere else, this forum is not for close-minded individuals. Thank-You.
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    (Original post by najinaji)
    That does appear to be the most rational hypothesis for the existence of homosexuals in nature.
    thank you, also I believe homosexual behavior is practiced in other species in the animal kingdom so maybe it is just natural population control o.O

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...exual_behavior
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    (Original post by bad8oy)
    being gay is not genetic because identical twins who have the same genetic make up, one of them are gay and the other is not. Therefore being gay is not genetic therefore it is not natural.
    Aside from your failed understanding of homosexuality amongst identical twins, I don't really see what this leads to. Even if homosexuality weren't natural, gay people will continue to exist as they always have done and always will do. So saying that homosexuality is unnatural literally achieves nothing, for either side of the debate.

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