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Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia: Girls are ready for marriage at 10.

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    (Original post by RamocitoMorales)
    6 year old? :curious:

    The article says 10 or 12. Don't overdramatise the issue by manipulating figures please. :sigh:
    No, read the article again: "in 2009, Saudi courts declined to nullify a marriage between a 6-year-old girl and a 58-year-old man."

    Regardless, a 6, 10, 12 year old is still a child unable to give consent to marriage - this is not being overdramatic, this a fundamental human rights issue.
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    What makes you say that? It states in the hadith that muhammad enjoyed her innocence and allowed her to remain a child and live with her parents 3 years after he married her. He enjoyed watching her play with her dolls among other things.

    And of course there are 'conservative/traditionalist muslims' such as the taliban and sharia countries - based on the desire to instill islamic principles frown upon by the west. For example the age of marriage and poligamy
    At least give the hadith?

    If your a Muslim, you stick by Islam, their is no lower sub groups, no such thing in Islam, the other thing is that the Taliban are no where near close to Islam, they are essentially a group of farmers, high cultured, etc men trying to use Islam as a shield, in reality when you compare it to Islam it's so easy to see the huge differences between the two................it's also the same with these 'sharia countries' because there is none, closest thing to anything sharia related was the Ottoman empire a century ago and even they were far off.
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    It's saudia arabia, their version of Islam is warped, to say the least. This "grand mufti" is just a mufti for hire, who opens his mouth whenever the "royal" family need to justify their actions. His view goes directly against that of Islam, and the whole point is that both males and females marry at that young age, and consummate their marriage later, but as is typical with their version of Islam, this only applies to the females. He can't justify with the age of Aisha, as she was at least 18 at the time of her marriage. He's just trying to allow paedophilia. saudia is one of the most hypocritical societies there is, for example they don't allow women to drive because it'll "lead to more fornication etc.", but they allow them to be driven about by a male chauffeur, who is not haram to them, and so they can easily fornicate with him. That's just one of many hypocrisies that exist in that country due to their worrying version of Islam.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Make of it whatever you like, we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of.
    You would if you weren't ethically corrupt.
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    (Original post by Cigarette)
    No, read the article again: "in 2009, Saudi courts declined to nullify a marriage between a 6-year-old girl and a 58-year-old man."

    Regardless, a 6, 10, 12 year old is still a child unable to give consent to marriage - this is not being overdramatic, this a fundamental human rights issue.
    Am I the only one thinking how (sexually) will it even work, let alone the human rights!
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    [QUOTE=Voleva;37361302]
    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    so you basically admit islam is a backward culture. good.
    Not even in one sentence did i admit that. Some of the saudi arabians in power - yes they are backwards but never once did i say Islam was backwards. Don't equate the people's actions to the religion when they have nothing in common. Some of these people are going way off from what Islam preaches.
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    (Original post by Cigarette)
    You're completely missing the point.

    Using cultural relativity to justify Muhammad's actions undermines the Koran altogether. Muhammad was allegedly a Prophet - his actions and words are supposed to be eternal and the truth in all societies, in all era's. You cannot say "Muhammad's actions are right then, but they are wrong now" as this means all other rules and laws of the Koran can be dismissed as irrelevant to contemporary society.
    I didn't say that Muhammad's (PBUH) actions were wrong, i said now it wouldn't be looked favourably on in this society whereas back then it was socially acceptable. I don't think i'm conveying myself properly but i hope you understand what i mean. Unlike a prophet majority of the people marrying young girls would take complete advantage of them, that's what i deem as wrong.
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    (Original post by FrigidSymphony)
    You would if you weren't ethically corrupt.
    I don't think you know what "ethics" is. Otherwise, tell me what is the right ethic and what is the wrong ethic. Try proving my initial post in this topic wrong, do some research and feel free to challenge my points.

    All people want to do is take the most simplistic of statements out of context and create a whole idea behind it, regardless of how far that idea to reality really is. Islamaphobia is always veiled behind the excuse of ignorance (except for those who like to purposely be open about it). Very few people will (particularly Atheists) look at a religion with an objective approach.

    Anyways, if you can't disapprove the Aisha/Islamic marriage legality, feel free to prove to me, against your adhomein attacks, that you have the "correct" ethics in general.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    I don't think you know what "ethics" is.
    do you know what it means? Define the word "ethics" accurately, please
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    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    Nope........but it's also to do with maturity in terms of mentality, the point of the OP is something else. A young child wouldn't do it in present time, things are different.
    Come now, answer this from an Islamic perspective.

    Assuming a girl has reached puberty and gives consent, is it ok for a man to marry her? Because talking from the Quran and Hadith, to my knowledge, the answer is yes. If it is not, then I'd like to see why.
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    (Original post by S-man10)
    do you know what it means? Define the word "ethics" accurately, please
    In philosophy it's a systematized approach to separating right from wrong. It's based on pure subjectivity, with little standing especially when an Atheist goes around telling people they don't have ethics.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Come now, answer this from an Islamic perspective.

    Assuming a girl has reached puberty and gives consent, is it ok for a man to marry her? Because talking from the Quran and Hadith, to my knowledge, the answer is yes. If it is not, then I'd like to see why.
    Nah, she also needs to reach mental maturity and ensure there's no harm against him/her in being in a relationship.


    "Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm." (Sheikh 'Abd Al-'Aziz Al-Durayhim - cited here)

    A girl can marry at 10, however she can't consummate the marriage until all the above boxes are ticked.

    It's like an engagement, but in western countries, there is no consummation claws (i don't think), once you get married you can live with your husband/have sexual relations etc. With Islam, marriage has 2 stages, the first is restrictive to ensure both spouses are ready, then the second stage is where consummation actually happens.

    In Japan the age of marraige is 13. In Romania I believe it's 14 and in countries like UK/Some US states, it's around 15 (upon parental consent). Could be wrong for some of them due to memory, but definitely European nations.
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    Disgraceful.

    If he wasn't cowering under the faith card, society would be baying for his blood (like they do for other paedophiles). He's an absolute disgrace, and if Muslims around the world were going to bother protesting/burning down embassies over anything, it should be this. He is doing Islam a great disservice, in a time where their public image is rubbish enough.

    There was a thread about Muslims who claim Mohammed to be the perfect role-model for all time. I won't repeat myself.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Nah, she also needs to reach mental maturity and ensure there's no harm against him/her in being in a relationship.


    "Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm." (Sheikh 'Abd Al-'Aziz Al-Durayhim - cited here)

    A girl can marry at 10, however she can't consummate the marriage until all the above boxes are ticked.

    It's like an engagement, but in western countries, there is no consummation claws (i don't think), once you get married you can live with your husband/have sexual relations etc. With Islam, marriage has 2 stages, the first is restrictive to ensure both spouses are ready, then the second stage is where consummation actually happens.

    In Japan the age of marraige is 13. In Romania I believe it's 14 and in countries like UK/Some US states, it's around 15 (upon parental consent). Could be wrong for some of them due to memory, but definitely European nations.
    So going from Hadith, we have only that 'no harm may be caused' essentially. No mention of mental ability, or how such a thing could possibly be tested. So then we must ask ourselves what exactly 'harm' constitutes, because clearly, according to the Fatwa, the only thing causing harm in such a relationship in this day and age are contempory societal judgements, which leads us to the conclusion that if a Muslim were in such a place where sich judgements did not exist there would be no problem with a relationship with a 9 year old.
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    Just like to say that as a Muslim... i totally disagree with this
    forced marriages are not allowed in Islam....the Prophet condemned it
    and also in Islam there are many sects
    like in Christians you get Catholics and protestants
    in Islam you get shia's and sunnis. and within them there are more sects.....just because one sect believes it not all of us do
    and also the guys not god...he might have studied the religion for loads of years...but that doesn't give him the right to make rulings
    unless without consent from more muftis
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    maybe my grammar wasn't the clearest there. I meant to put brackets around with all due respect to avoid people having a go at me for mentioning it or incorrectly assuming im undermining him because he did it. Im not implying i respect him BECAUSE he married a 6 year old which now i read it back it sounds like that
    Oh no I was saying that the very fact that a 6 year old girl was married was weird. Don't worry!
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    [QUOTE=JongKey;37364531]
    (Original post by Voleva)

    Not even in one sentence did i admit that. Some of the saudi arabians in power - yes they are backwards but never once did i say Islam was backwards. Don't equate the people's actions to the religion when they have nothing in common. Some of these people are going way off from what Islam preaches.
    so mo had nothing to do with islam, and the fact that a billion muslims consider him an example has nothing tomdo with islam either?:rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    So going from Hadith, we have only that 'no harm may be caused' essentially. No mention of mental ability, or how such a thing could possibly be tested. So then we must ask ourselves what exactly 'harm' constitutes, because clearly, according to the Fatwa, the only thing causing harm in such a relationship in this day and age are contempory societal judgements, which leads us to the conclusion that if a Muslim were in such a place where sich judgements did not exist there would be no problem with a relationship with a 9 year old.
    1. It's not a "fatwa". It's a famous scholar relaying what the consensus of the classical scholars regarding just one of the requirements of a Islamic marriage.

    When they say; "no harm must be caused", examples of such are; the persons body isn't capable for having intercourse, the person may have HIV or some disease that would harm the potential spouse, the person may be mentally insane etc. Quite versatile and allows scholars to do itjihad based on any future problems that may arrive.

    And this is the beauty of the Shariah. Barely a century ago, a 10 year old could get married in the UK/USA. No mental/puberty/maturity etc. With Islamic Shariah, there is no fixed age, but rather through the divine decree, clear cut requirements for a Marriage to hold valid.

    2. The scholar is relaying one aspect of the marriage requirements. Amongst the other requirements is mental maturity.

    This is based on the word in the Qur'an known as "bulugh al nikah", which means "age of marraige" in regards to orphans and their capabilities of handling their finances. We know this is referring to mental maturity because the Qur'an talks about "testing to see if Orphans have reached bulugh al nikah, by seeing if they are ready to handle their own financial assets";

    {وَابْتَلُواْ الْيَتَامَى حَتَّىَ إِذَا بَلَغُواْ النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُم مِّنْهُمْ رُشْداً فَادْفَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ...} {Test the orphans, so that if they have reached the age of procreation* (Balaghu Al Nikah), and if (you) discerned from them sound judgement then deliver to them their fortune} Quran: Al Nisaa (The Women) 4:6, p. 77

    In simplistic terms; being able to handle your own financial assets = mental maturity in Islam, and the age in which you can consent to marriage and complete stage 2.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    In philosophy it's a systematized approach to separating right from wrong. It's based on pure subjectivity, with little standing especially when an Atheist goes around telling people they don't have ethics.
    Actually no, you have such a wrong understanding of ethics. And then you go on questioning others about ethics when you suggest ethics is "separating right from wrong". Right or wrong is morality, not ethics and morality is determined by the masses.
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    (Original post by S-man10)
    Actually no, you have such a wrong understanding of ethics. And then you go on questioning others about ethics when you suggest ethics is "separating right from wrong". Right or wrong is morality, not ethics and morality is determined by the masses.
    I strongly doubt you understood what I said or the context in which I said it. I mentioned it was apart of Philosophy, a systematized method of separating right and wrong (in elaboration, behavior wise).

    Ethics is apart of/or is also known as a moral philosophy. So it's like a branch off the field of morality. To say it has nothing to do with it is absurd and inaccurate.

    Here's your dictionary definition;

    1. Moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior.
    2. The moral correctness of specified conduct.

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