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Christians and slavery

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    (Original post by ANIGAV)
    Christianlady, on an unrelated question, would you take 1 million pounds for a quickie?
    Hello ANIGAV,

    No. However, I would consider such a question to be very close to sexual harassment, and would tell my husband, my parents, and my friends who are police the name of the individual and what was said. Does that answer your question?

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by squishy123)
    I do apologize. I thought you was just another student. Dedicated and committed Christian as your name suggests, but still a student.
    Hello Squishy,

    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not (sometimes on a forum it's hard to tell) but I will just take it as you are being sincere. Thanks for the apology but it's not necessary to apologize. I wasn't offended by you at all. I was merely pointing out that life is busy for me. As it is, I have to go now but I will look for your posts when possible and answer, k? Thanks so much for your patience.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
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    1 Cor 7 encourages slaves to gain freedom, not Christians to release slaves, so it doesn't condemn slavery, rather use common sense to tell them to escape it if possible.

    Galatians 3 Merely says that everyone is equal with Jesus. We are not with Jesus, and won't be until we die (if you are right about religion) so this passage only increases the point that Christianity does not condemn slavery. If "neither slave nor free" is a condemnation of slavery, "neither male and female" is a condemnation of one of the genders. Obviously you are wrong about this verse, then.

    Ephesians 6 Directly says that slavery is acceptable by giving slaves instructions on how to be a good slave and giving slave owners instructions that don't include freeing their slaves.

    1 Peter 2 is the same as above.

    Philemon 1 gives one example of returning a slave. It doesn't condone giving back all slaves, nor does it negate the previous verses you quoted which don't condemn slavery.

    Colossians 3 is the same quote as Galatiants 3 in effect. It's probably one of the verses that has been copied from one book to the other.

    Try again?
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello RandZul'Zorander,

    If you read 1 Corinthians 7 clearly, you will see that Paul encourages slaves to gain their freedom if possible.

    1 Corinthians 7 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+7&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    "21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. "
    He encourages them to gain their freedom true. However does he say that being a slave is wrong? no. In fact he says 24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. This contradicts his first sentence of freeing themselves when they were 'called'. I like how you cut off your quotes before that part.


    Again, you are incorrect. By the way, are you a Christian?

    Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 7:21 does encourage slaves to attain their freedom: "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. "
    Show me where I am incorrect. Show me where Paul went against slavery. He said if you can gain your freedom however if not then it's ok. Be a slave. And slaves have a code to follow as slaves. As you so nicely quoted earlier. So there is acceptance of slavery. The Bible accepts that it exists and does not condemn it as a practice. That's called condoning.

    Many Gentiles who became Christians were servants/slaves. Also, Philemon is a letter that Paul wrote to Philemon, a slave owner, who Paul nicely commanded to free Onesimus, who was his slave.

    Philemon 1 -
    (I boldened some.)

    "9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that [B]I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

    12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother.
    He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

    17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me."
    Again this is going for ONE SLAVE. Paul is asking for one slave's freedom because he has become 'useful' and because he 'became his son'. It is not Paul condemning slavery as a whole but just asking for 1 slave to be freed. There is a very big difference.

    Christians, and I am not sure if you are one or not? who are led by God's Holy Spirit and study the Word of God understand that slavery is not acceptable, which is why it is erroneous for Atheists and people of other beliefs to accuse Christianity of condoning slavery. Below in Paul's letter to the church of Ephesus sums up very well how both males and females, Gentiles and Jews,slaves and free, are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Christians did not in the past. In fact many christians used the bible to show that slavery was ok. With some of these very passages. You are right Paul's letter does say that everyone is 'one' in Christ. However he does not that there are men and women, Gentiles and Jews, slaves and free men. He does not say that they shouldn't be slaves or men or Gentiles. He says that they exist and that is all. They are one in Christ's eyes. But they are still slaves. And earlier he compelled them to remain as such.

    Galatians 3 -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    See above.


    Yes it does, because many Christians who have been led by God's Spirit have learned from Paul's writings and have been influenced to advocate freedom from slavery.

    Please research the following website: http://www.freetheslaves.net/Page.aspx?pid=482

    Below is a quote from it:

    "Jesus was silent on the issue of slavery. But the epistles of his disciple, St. Paul, condemned slave traders and called for slaves to be treated as "brethren."
    Please show me where in the bible Paul condemned slave traders. And asking for slaves to be treated well does not condemn slavery. All it does is say they shouldn't be treated like trash. He did not advocate for their freedom.

    Christian abolitionism took root in the 17th Century among Quaker, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist and Congregationalist groups. Quakers believed that everyone, including African slaves, were "equal in the sight of God."
    I am not claiming that Christians were all for slavery. I am merely pointing out that the bible does not condemn it. The bible on the contrary accepts slavery as a practice and makes a few exceptions for some individuals but overall does not object with the idea of having slaves. So that is condoning it.

    I am curious if you understand the power of God? God has used many Christians, including William Wilberforce, to rescue people from the evils of slavery. Atheists and people of other beliefs do not understand this. Now, sadly there have been Christians who owned slaves, but they did not understand nor were led by God to rescue the captives (slaves.) However, other Christians who are Christians heart and soul have been and are still today great advocates for rescuing people from slavery.

    So, have you ever studied men such as William Wilberforce? Do you understand how important his Christian faith is to him that he would fight for so long against slavery? If a person told him "Christianity condones slavery." what do you think William Wilberforce would have said?
    Again, just because christians have changed their views does not mean that the bible has supported the change. It supports the change when you selectively choose what to practice. Now christians like to preach that all people are equal in God's eyes and therefore should be treated equal on earth. However that does not change the passages that actually discuss slavery and tell slaves how to behave and christians how to treat their slaves. These passages condone slavery. That is the end of it. They do not say that slaves should be freed. Or that christians should not have them. The bible in these passages accepts that christians have slaves and thats that. Just to be clear to condone something is, "to accept and allow to continue". So, the bible does in fact condone slavery.
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    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    1 Cor 7 encourages slaves to gain freedom, not Christians to release slaves, so it doesn't condemn slavery, rather use common sense to tell them to escape it if possible.
    Hello Hypocrism,

    Do you believe that telling slaves to escape if possible is condoning slavery?


    Let's put ourselves in the places of slave owners who might have heard the a leader in the Corinthian church read this letter of Paul to the Christians in Corinth. Let's say you are a slave owner, and both you and your slave are listening. Now, what would come into your mind when you hear "if you can gain your freedom, do so" directed at slaves? What would you think when you hear the command of Paul "Do not become slaves of human beings."? Would you think, oh, Christianity condones slavery? Nope. Instead, a wise person would think, hmm, Paul is saying to slaves to gain their freedom if they can and for people to not become slaves to other people. So, as a slave owner, I should do my part and set my slaves free. There is mere common sense.


    1 Corinthians 7 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...07&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    "21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings"

    Galatians 3 Merely says that everyone is equal with Jesus. We are not with Jesus, and won't be until we die (if you are right about religion) so this passage only increases the point that Christianity does not condemn slavery. If "neither slave nor free" is a condemnation of slavery, "neither male and female" is a condemnation of one of the genders. Obviously you are wrong about this verse, then.

    Christians who are led by God's Holy Spirit understand that Jews are not superior to Gentiles or Gentiles superior to Jews, that males are not superior to females, or females superior to males, that free people are not superior to slaves, or slaves superior to free people, but rather that we are all one and equal under God in Christ Jesus. This is no way condones slavery, but rather condones equality and unity, no matter the ethnicity, gender, or social status.


    Ephesians 6 Directly says that slavery is acceptable by giving slaves instructions on how to be a good slave and giving slave owners instructions that don't include freeing their slaves.
    Paul in his letter to Ephesus reminds masters that they are servants of God and that God will judge them for how they treat others. Obviously, to wise people, the wisest conclusion is to release one's slaves, since "there is no favoritism" with God.

    1 Peter 2 is the same as above.
    Peter, though not encouraging slaves to seek freedom like Paul, does not condone slavery. However, he does condone enduring unjustice in a nonviolent way. Peter, a man who had been violent, cutting of the ear of a man, and who had denied Jesus three times, radically changed. He did by no means encourage revolt and violence, but rather encouraged enduring persecution. He considered himself a servant of God, and did not fight those who eventually killed him.

    Philemon 1 gives one example of returning a slave. It doesn't condone giving back all slaves, nor does it negate the previous verses you quoted which don't condemn slavery.
    Christians study the writings of Paul because we learn from them. The letter of Paul to Philemon is extremely important to Christians because we learn that people are brothers and sisters in Christ, and through the example of Philemon and his slave Onesimus, we learn that slave owners should set free their slaves and consider them brothers (and sisters) and love them as equals, because they are equals. Sadly, many Christians throughout the ages have not learned this important lesson, but thankfully there have been some, like William Wilberforce, who strives to eradicate the slave trade in the UK, who do understand that Christianity does not condone slavery, but rather encourages freedom from human slavery and brotherhood no matter the ethnicity or social status.

    Colossians 3 is the same quote as Galatiants 3 in effect. It's probably one of the verses that has been copied from one book to the other.

    Try again?
    To people who don't care about Christian writings, it is obvious they will believe what they want concerning Christian ideas. However, the idea that Christianity condones slavery is false, because Christian doctrine is that all people are equal and one in Christ Jesus, no matter if they are male or female, Jew or Gentile, slave or free, and that as brothers and sisters in Christ, noone is superior to another. Rather, we are all equal. Christianity condones equality, not slavery, no matter what skeptics think. True Christians who love God and are led by the Holy Spirit understand this.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    He encourages them to gain their freedom true.
    Hello RandZul'Zorander,

    I am glad you see that. Now, does encouraging slaves to gain their freedom means that Christianity condones slavery? Nope. Rather, it means the opposite, that Christianity condones freedom from slavery to humans.

    However does he say that being a slave is wrong? no. In fact he says 24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. This contradicts his first sentence of freeing themselves when they were 'called'. I like how you cut off your quotes before that part.
    A person who is not a Christian is not going to understand Paul's writings. Why? Because they don't believe in them anyways lol.

    Paul does not contradict himself. Rather, he is showing that the emphasis is not in changing one's social status, but rather in serving God. For Christians, one of the man purposes in life is to serve God. Christians believe that we are all servants of God.




    Show me where I am incorrect. Show me where Paul went against slavery. He said if you can gain your freedom however if not then it's ok. Be a slave.
    Paul went against slavery in the following quotes:

    1 Corinthians 7:21 (NIV)
    "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so."

    1 Corinthians 7:23 (NIV)
    "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."

    Paul did not say that it's ok to be a slave. Rather, he gave the command to not become slaves of human beings.

    Just as I wrote Hypocrism, think about this please. Put yourself in the position of a slave owner in the church of Corinth, hearing the Paul's letter being read by a church leader. If you were listening to the above, would you think that Paul is condoning slavery? Or, would you think slavery is wrong and be convicted to release your slaves?

    And slaves have a code to follow as slaves. As you so nicely quoted earlier. So there is acceptance of slavery. The Bible accepts that it exists and does not condemn it as a practice. That's called condoning.
    Saying not to do it is not condoning, but rather condemning the practice.

    "Do not kill" is not condoning murder. It is condemning it.

    Paul's command "do not become slaves of human beings" is not condoning slavery. It is condemning slavery.

    Again this is going for ONE SLAVE. Paul is asking for one slave's freedom because he has become 'useful' and because he 'became his son'. It is not Paul condemning slavery as a whole but just asking for 1 slave to be freed. There is a very big difference.
    For Christians who are led by God's Spirit and study the Bible, all of the Bible is to be learned from as to what pleases or does not please God. The letter of Paul to Philemon is very important because it teaches Christians who are willing to listen that slave owners are to free their slaves and to consider people to be brothers (and sisters) in Christ, instead of thinking they are superior to them.



    Christians did not in the past. In fact many christians used the bible to show that slavery was ok.
    Sadly, many people who call themselves Christians also do not love their enemies, but rather kill them.

    With some of these very passages. You are right Paul's letter does say that everyone is 'one' in Christ. However he does not that there are men and women, Gentiles and Jews, slaves and free men. He does not say that they shouldn't be slaves or men or Gentiles. He says that they exist and that is all. They are one in Christ's eyes. But they are still slaves. And earlier he compelled them to remain as such.
    Paul makes the very important point that nobody is superior to anybody else. Rather we are one (and equal) in Jesus; we are all children of God. Slavery, however, is all about superiority in the fact that slave owners considered themselves superior to their slaves. However, Paul teaches that we are all on the same level.



    See above.




    Please show me where in the bible Paul condemned slave traders. And asking for slaves to be treated well does not condemn slavery. All it does is say they shouldn't be treated like trash. He did not advocate for their freedom.
    Paul does not mention slave traders. However, he does say, and I repeat again

    1 Corinthians 7:21-23 (NIV)
    "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."

    Again, think about if you were a slave-owner hearing this message from Paul. Would it encourage you to free your slaves and no longer have slaves, or obtain more slaves? Think about it.
    I am not claiming that Christians were all for slavery. I am merely pointing out that the bible does not condemn it. The bible on the contrary accepts slavery as a practice and makes a few exceptions for some individuals but overall does not object with the idea of having slaves. So that is condoning it.
    Paul giving the command to not become slaves of human beings is condemning slavery, same as Moses commanding the Israelites to not kill or steal is condemning murder and robbery.

    Again, just because christians have changed their views does not mean that the bible has supported the change. It supports the change when you selectively choose what to practice. Now christians like to preach that all people are equal in God's eyes and therefore should be treated equal on earth. However that does not change the passages that actually discuss slavery and tell slaves how to behave and christians how to treat their slaves. These passages condone slavery. That is the end of it. They do not say that slaves should be freed. Or that christians should not have them. The bible in these passages accepts that christians have slaves and thats that. Just to be clear to condone something is, "to accept and allow to continue". So, the bible does in fact condone slavery.

    You are free to believe what you want, even though your accusation against Christianity is false. Thankfully, there are many Christians who do understand that Christianity condones freedom from human slavery and equality of persons, no matter their ethnicity, gender, and social status.


    Peace and may God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Hypocrism,

    Do you believe that telling slaves to escape if possible is condoning slavery?
    Sorry to but into your debate with someone else but he already explained how it was still condoning slavery.

    Let's put ourselves in the places of slave owners who might have heard the a leader in the Corinthian church read this letter of Paul to the Christians in Corinth. Let's say you are a slave owner, and both you and your slave are listening. Now, what would come into your mind when you hear "if you can gain your freedom, do so" directed at slaves? What would you think when you hear the command of Paul "Do not become slaves of human beings."? Would you think, oh, Christianity condones slavery? Nope. Instead, a wise person would think, hmm, Paul is saying to slaves to gain their freedom if they can and for people to not become slaves to other people. So, as a slave owner, I should do my part and set my slaves free. There is mere common sense.
    What does it say? It says that they don't have to free them and that the burden to gain freedom is on the slaves. The slaves should gain their freedom if they can. So the burden is on the slaves not the owners. The owners are not compelled to free them. This is condoning.

    1 Corinthians 7 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...07&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    "21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings"
    You like to leave out the last part. 24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.



    Christians who are led by God's Holy Spirit understand that Jews are not superior to Gentiles or Gentiles superior to Jews, that males are not superior to females, or females superior to males, that free people are not superior to slaves, or slaves superior to free people, but rather that we are all one and equal under God in Christ Jesus. This is no way condones slavery, but rather condones equality and unity, no matter the ethnicity, gender, or social status.
    All it says is that they are equal under God's judgement. Not on earth, or in respect to other men.

    Paul in his letter to Ephesus reminds masters that they are servants of God and that God will judge them for how they treat others. Obviously, to wise people, the wisest conclusion is to release one's slaves, since "there is no favoritism" with God.
    So it says they should treat other's well and by following passages earlier in the bible again that say that they should treat their slaves well, clearly 'treating well' does not mean free in the bible.


    Christians study the writings of Paul because we learn from them. The letter of Paul to Philemon is extremely important to Christians because we learn that people are brothers and sisters in Christ, and through the example of Philemon and his slave Onesimus, we learn that slave owners should set free their slaves and consider them brothers (and sisters) and love them as equals, because they are equals. Sadly, many Christians throughout the ages have not learned this important lesson, but thankfully there have been some, like William Wilberforce, who strives to eradicate the slave trade in the UK, who do understand that Christianity does not condone slavery, but rather encourages freedom from human slavery and brotherhood no matter the ethnicity or social status.
    That isn't at all what was said by Paul. He advocated for one slave, because this one in particular he had become close to. He only refers to this slave as his 'son'. No others. So this does not spread to all slaves.

    To people who don't care about Christian writings, it is obvious they will believe what they want concerning Christian ideas. However, the idea that Christianity condones slavery is false, because Christian doctrine is that all people are equal and one in Christ Jesus, no matter if they are male or female, Jew or Gentile, slave or free, and that as brothers and sisters in Christ, noone is superior to another. Rather, we are all equal. Christianity condones equality, not slavery, no matter what skeptics think. True Christians who love God and are led by the Holy Spirit understand this.
    Christianity condones slavery and injustices, however I agree with you that it does also condone equality. However you need to choose the equality passages and not the oppressive ones. So it is imperfect and contradictory in it's teachings.
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    Sorry to but into your debate with someone else but he already explained how it was still condoning slavery.



    What does it say? It says that they don't have to free them and that the burden to gain freedom is on the slaves. The slaves should gain their freedom if they can. So the burden is on the slaves not the owners. The owners are not compelled to free them. This is condoning.



    You like to leave out the last part. 24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.




    All it says is that they are equal under God's judgement. Not on earth, or in respect to other men.



    So it says they should treat other's well and by following passages earlier in the bible again that say that they should treat their slaves well, clearly 'treating well' does not mean free in the bible.




    That isn't at all what was said by Paul. He advocated for one slave, because this one in particular he had become close to. He only refers to this slave as his 'son'. No others. So this does not spread to all slaves.



    Christianity condones slavery and injustices, however I agree with you that it does also condone equality. However you need to choose the equality passages and not the oppressive ones. So it is imperfect and contradictory in it's teachings.
    Hello RandZul'Zorander,

    I'm sorry. I have to go now, cause my husband is coming home from work very soon (it's 5:41 pm where I currently live) and we're going to the gym! Fun fun lol

    I would love to read your input in my new thread concerning people of faith who inspire, as well as your thoughts concerning William Wilberforce and how his Christian faith encouraged him to fight so hard against slavery?

    Till later, if God wills.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello RandZul'Zorander,

    I am glad you see that. Now, does encouraging slaves to gain their freedom means that Christianity condones slavery? Nope. Rather, it means the opposite, that Christianity condones freedom from slavery to humans.
    It does condone slavery in that that only if they can. What about if they can't get their freedom? Does Paul advocate for the freedom of those who can't free themselves? No. And again he puts the burden on the slaves not the slave owners.



    A person who is not a Christian is not going to understand Paul's writings. Why? Because they don't believe in them anyways lol.
    You don't need to be a Christian to understand the teachings in the bible. That is illogical. Otherwise nobody would be able to convert because they couldn't understand.

    Paul does not contradict himself. Rather, he is showing that the emphasis is not in changing one's social status, but rather in serving God. For Christians, one of the man purposes in life is to serve God. Christians believe that we are all servants of God.
    He did. You are now cherry picking and interpreting as you wish to. Corinthians 7 is one part. You can't just say 21-23 mean one thing and 24 is completely separate. They are part of the same section because they are talking about the same things. So looking at the whole paragraph that Paul writes. He says in the start that slaves should free themselves if they can. And then to not become slaves of another human. However he concludes by saying that whatever position you were in when you were called should stay unchanged. Ie. If you were a slave you should stay a slave. That is contradictory. You can't just pick and choose here.


    Paul went against slavery in the following quotes:

    1 Corinthians 7:21 (NIV)
    "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so."

    1 Corinthians 7:23 (NIV)
    "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."
    Again with the cherry picking :rolleyes:

    Paul did not say that it's ok to be a slave. Rather, he gave the command to not become slaves of human beings.
    Become however what about those who are slaves already? Not to mention the other passages in the bible telling slave owners how to treat their slaves. Not to mention Paul said right after this that slaves should remain slaves when called.

    Just as I wrote Hypocrism, think about this please. Put yourself in the position of a slave owner in the church of Corinth, hearing the Paul's letter being read by a church leader. If you were listening to the above, would you think that Paul is condoning slavery? Or, would you think slavery is wrong and be convicted to release your slaves?
    Where does Paul say slavery is wrong? He advocates for a special case for one slave. This by no means transfers to all slaves. As he has specifically stated why this one slave should be freed.

    Saying not to do it is not condoning, but rather condemning the practice.

    "Do not kill" is not condoning murder. It is condemning it.

    Paul's command "do not become slaves of human beings" is not condoning slavery. It is condemning slavery.
    Again with the cherry picking. Do no become slaves does not mean that you can't be a slave or that you can't have slaves. :rolleyes:

    For Christians who are led by God's Spirit and study the Bible, all of the Bible is to be learned from as to what pleases or does not please God. The letter of Paul to Philemon is very important because it teaches Christians who are willing to listen that slave owners are to free their slaves and to consider people to be brothers (and sisters) in Christ, instead of thinking they are superior to them.
    No it doesn't. As I explained it shows that Christians are to see their slaves as equal in God's eyes, in the His kingdom. Not on earth. They are to treat them well as Christians but nowhere does that imply their freedom.

    Sadly, many people who call themselves Christians also do not love their enemies, but rather kill them.
    I agree.

    Paul makes the very important point that nobody is superior to anybody else. Rather we are one (and equal) in Jesus; we are all children of God. Slavery, however, is all about superiority in the fact that slave owners considered themselves superior to their slaves. However, Paul teaches that we are all on the same level.
    The bolded explains how Paul sees people as equal. He believes them equal under God, not on earth. I'm tired of repeating the same thing. Being equal when judged by god is not the same as having equal positions on earth.


    Paul does not mention slave traders. However, he does say, and I repeat again

    1 Corinthians 7:21-23 (NIV)
    "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."

    Again, think about if you were a slave-owner hearing this message from Paul. Would it encourage you to free your slaves and no longer have slaves, or obtain more slaves? Think about it.
    I already addressed all of this again. You are cherry picking your verses and even excluding the parts of the same verse that contradict what you say.

    Paul giving the command to not become slaves of human beings is condemning slavery, same as Moses commanding the Israelites to not kill or steal is condemning murder and robbery.
    Again no. It does not condemn having or owning slaves. It condemns becoming a slave. Not the same thing. Besides the fact that Paul contradicts himself in his own passage.


    You are free to believe what you want, even though your accusation against Christianity is false. Thankfully, there are many Christians who do understand that Christianity condones freedom from human slavery and equality of persons, no matter their ethnicity, gender, and social status.
    It is commonly known fact that slavery is condoned in the bible. However modern day Christians choose to ignore these rules and laws in favor of those that propagate equality. Whilst I am all for this, it has to be accepted that there are passages in the bible which do in fact condone slavery.
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    x
    Thanks, this sums up my response, rep. Will add just a few things.

    (Original post by Christianlady)
    A person who is not a Christian is not going to understand Paul's writings. Why? Because they don't believe in them anyways lol.
    I don't have to believe in something to understand it. I understand scientology, I understand Christianity equally easily. In fact I don't think you understand (probably because a religious upbringing deprives you of the skills to think outside what you've already been shown in the Bible) that telling someone that gaining their freedom is good is NOT the same as instructing Christians to free their slaves! If this was god's wish, it would have said "Christians, free your slaves." Not "Slaves, attempt to become free." I have noticed it before, and here it is again, the tendency of religion to find ways to propagate itself. A Christian slave who gains his freedom is more likely to pass on that religion to his children, but a Christian who keeps his slaves is going to have a more comfortable life. Guess which one the Bible directly tells you to do (hint: it's the first one)

    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Paul's command "do not become slaves of human beings" is not condoning slavery. It is condemning slavery.
    No. As above, it attempts to propagate the number of free people buying it by telling christians to escape slavery. It doesn't tell Christians to free slaves. The Bible says "If you are a slave, try and escape slavery, and this is a good thing to do." That is not equivalent to saying "If you are a slave owner, release your slaves" in any shape or form, no matter what you've heard for years. It's kind of sad

    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Paul giving the command to not become slaves of human beings is condemning slavery, same as Moses commanding the Israelites to not kill or steal is condemning murder and robbery.
    Again, no. If the Bible says "Avoid situation X" that means that you should try and move away from associating yourself with X. It doesn't mean that situation X is condemned. It means that avoiding being in situation X is lauded. It doesn't condone slavery - but I didn't claim those passages did, merely taking a neutral stance and encouraging Christians to be free (again, propagation, blah blah)

    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Thankfully, there are many Christians who do understand that Christianity condones freedom from human slavery and equality of persons, no matter their ethnicity, gender, and social status.
    This is because of their own morality and it is not based on their religion.

    Peace and god bless you :cool:
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    It does condone slavery in that that only if they can. What about if they can't get their freedom?
    Hello RandZul'Zorander,

    Could you please clarify the above? Thanks.
    Does Paul advocate for the freedom of those who can't free themselves? No. And again he puts the burden on the slaves not the slave owners.
    Paul does not advocate a rebellion against slave-owners. However, one needs to understand that in the congregations, there were slave-owners who had common sense, who possibly understand that when Paul in his letter said for slaves to gain freedom if possible, and gave the command to not become slaves to human beings, that this means for them to free people they owned.




    You don't need to be a Christian to understand the teachings in the bible. That is illogical. Otherwise nobody would be able to convert because they couldn't understand.
    Jesus said that it is His Father (God) who teaches people. There are many people who read the Bible and think they understand, but they don't really. Please see the following verses:

    John 5 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+5&version=NIV


    "39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

    John 6 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...06&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    "43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. "



    He did. You are now cherry picking and interpreting as you wish to. Corinthians 7 is one part. You can't just say 21-23 mean one thing and 24 is completely separate. They are part of the same section because they are talking about the same things. So looking at the whole paragraph that Paul writes. He says in the start that slaves should free themselves if they can. And then to not become slaves of another human. However he concludes by saying that whatever position you were in when you were called should stay unchanged. Ie. If you were a slave you should stay a slave. That is contradictory. You can't just pick and choose here.
    If it is not obvious to you that Paul is not condoning slavery, but rather encouraging freedom from slavery, that is between you and God. However, it is indeed obvious to me by God's Holy Spirit that Christianity and Paul's writings condone freedom from slavery and the understanding that all people are equal/one through Christ.



    Again with the cherry picking :rolleyes:



    Become however what about those who are slaves already? Not to mention the other passages in the bible telling slave owners how to treat their slaves. Not to mention Paul said right after this that slaves should remain slaves when called.



    Where does Paul say slavery is wrong? He advocates for a special case for one slave. This by no means transfers to all slaves. As he has specifically stated why this one slave should be freed.



    Again with the cherry picking. Do no become slaves does not mean that you can't be a slave or that you can't have slaves. :rolleyes:
    You can be as disrespectful and roll your eyes (on the forum and in real life) and call me cherry picking as much as it makes you happy, but thankfully, many Christians have understood that Christianity condones freedom from slavery.

    No it doesn't. As I explained it shows that Christians are to see their slaves as equal in God's eyes, in the His kingdom. Not on earth. They are to treat them well as Christians but nowhere does that imply their freedom.
    What do you believe concerning Jesus' command to do to others what one would have them do to you? If I use reason, I could most definitely consider that to mean that since I'm not willing to be enslaved, I should thus not enslave others. Paul's teaching emphasizes that Christians are to obey God, and that includes how we treat others.

    I agree.



    The bolded explains how Paul sees people as equal. He believes them equal under God, not on earth. I'm tired of repeating the same thing. Being equal when judged by god is not the same as having equal positions on earth.
    Please use logic: if you believe a person is equal to you, then why would you consider that person to be your slave? If one looks at it from a logical point of view, a person who owned slaves would logically decide to free slaves, since we are all equal in Christ.

    I already addressed all of this again. You are cherry picking your verses and even excluding the parts of the same verse that contradict what you say.
    It does not contradict. However, we can agree to disagree, since obviously a person who has their mind made up is not going to strive to understand how it does not contradict.
    Again no. It does not condemn having or owning slaves. It condemns becoming a slave. Not the same thing. Besides the fact that Paul contradicts himself in his own passage.
    Again, if one uses logic (which is a gift from God), one can understand how condemning becoming a slave can logically include condemning having/owning slaves. Paul's letter to Philemon confirms this, when Paul politely ordered Philemon to free Onesimus.

    Philemon 8 -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philemon+1&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    "8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than P[B]aul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

    12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord."


    It is commonly known fact that slavery is condoned in the bible. However modern day Christians choose to ignore these rules and laws in favor of those that propagate equality. Whilst I am all for this, it has to be accepted that there are passages in the bible which do in fact condone slavery.
    People who understand Jesus' teachings, through God's Holy Spirit, understand that freedom from slavery is condoned, not slavery.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    Thanks, this sums up my response, rep. Will add just a few things.



    I don't have to believe in something to understand it. I understand scientology, I understand Christianity equally easily. In fact I don't think you understand (probably because a religious upbringing deprives you of the skills to think outside what you've already been shown in the Bible) that telling someone that gaining their freedom is good is NOT the same as instructing Christians to free their slaves! If this was god's wish, it would have said "Christians, free your slaves." Not "Slaves, attempt to become free." I have noticed it before, and here it is again, the tendency of religion to find ways to propagate itself. A Christian slave who gains his freedom is more likely to pass on that religion to his children, but a Christian who keeps his slaves is going to have a more comfortable life. Guess which one the Bible directly tells you to do (hint: it's the first one)



    No. As above, it attempts to propagate the number of free people buying it by telling christians to escape slavery. It doesn't tell Christians to free slaves. The Bible says "If you are a slave, try and escape slavery, and this is a good thing to do." That is not equivalent to saying "If you are a slave owner, release your slaves" in any shape or form, no matter what you've heard for years. It's kind of sad



    Again, no. If the Bible says "Avoid situation X" that means that you should try and move away from associating yourself with X. It doesn't mean that situation X is condemned. It means that avoiding being in situation X is lauded. It doesn't condone slavery - but I didn't claim those passages did, merely taking a neutral stance and encouraging Christians to be free (again, propagation, blah blah)



    This is because of their own morality and it is not based on their religion.

    Peace and god bless you :cool:

    Hello Hypocrism,

    Do you understand the fact that many people glean their moral convictions from their religion? Christians who understand the Bible through God's Holy Spirit helping them understand that people are equal through Christ, and that Christianity condones freedom from slavery of humans owning humans, while at the same time, emphasizes that we are servants of God.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Hypocrism,

    Do you understand the fact that many people glean their moral convictions from their religion? Christians who understand the Bible through God's Holy Spirit helping them understand that people are equal through Christ, and that Christianity condones freedom from slavery of humans owning humans, while at the same time, emphasizes that we are servants of God.

    Peace and God bless you
    If this is true, why have multiple studies done on morality shown little to no variation in morals between religious and non-religious people?

    In addition, if you need a book written by some nutters 2000 years ago to tell you that slavery is bad, you have a mental condition. It's obvious, as is everything on morality in the bible except the bits that are false, like saying it's immoral to have sex outside marriage (which I know you'll disagree with me here) and that it's a just decision to stone someone for a crime.

    Also, is there a point to your post? You didn't talk about anything I addressed there.
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    Some advice to the lady who likes to do random interpretations; from a Christian Academia;


    Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. [1 Corinthians 7:21]

    Vincent's Word Studies

    Use it rather

    Whether the apostle means, use the bondage or use the freedom - whether, take advantage of the offer of freedom, or, remain in slavery - is, as Dean Stanley remarks, one of the most evenly balanced questions in the interpretation of the New Testament. The force of καὶ even, and the positive injunction of the apostle in 1 Corinthians 7:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:24, seem to favor the meaning, remain in slavery. The injunction is to be read in the light of 1 Corinthians 7:22, and of Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11; 1 Corinthians 12:13, that freeman and slave are one in Christ; and also of the feeling pervading the Church of the speedy termination of the present economy by the second coming of the Lord. See 1 Corinthians 7:26, 1 Corinthians 7:29. We must be careful to avoid basing our conclusion on the modern sentiment respecting freedom and slavery.
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    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    If this is true, why have multiple studies done on morality shown little to no variation in morals between religious and non-religious people?
    Hello Hypocrism,

    Could you please quote from the studies which claim this, and define morality, as well as the factors involved in the case studies? Thank you.


    In addition, if you need a book written by some nutters 2000 years ago to tell you that slavery is bad, you have a mental condition. It's obvious,
    Sad to say, slavery still exists today in different forms. There are people who sell other peoples' bodies, for example. There are others who are forced to work hard with very little or no pay.. Have you ever heard of trafficking? Who tells the people who do this that slavery is bad? I wish that they would read the Bible and understand through God's Spirit to not treat people that way.

    If you live in the UK, I encourage you to check out the following link, about slavery and trafficking in the UK. (I boldened some.)

    http://www.antislavery.org/english/c...n/default.aspx

    "Slavery still exists in 21st century London with an estimated 5,000 people trafficked to the UK at any one time. Whilse some are forced into prostitution, increasing numbers are forced to work in construction, domestic work, cleaning, the restaurant trade, care, on farms and in factories. Many, including children, are forced to beg, commit street crime or cultivate cannabis."
    as is everything on morality in the bible except the bits that are false, like saying it's immoral to have sex outside marriage (which I know you'll disagree with me here) and that it's a just decision to stone someone for a crime.

    Also, is there a point to your post? You didn't talk about anything I addressed there.
    Did you have any questions?

    My point to my post is that Christianity condones equality and unity, not slavery. Jesus, although not specifically addressing slavery, said to "Do to others as you would have them do to you." - Luke 6:31.

    Neither Peter nor Paul nor the apostles of Jesus had slaves. Rather, they were ordinary people. They weren't aristocrats raising funds to create fancy church buildings or make themselves rich, taking advantage of the common people. Rather, they were common people themselves who taught people about Jesus and freedom through Jesus. Now, you can go ahead and mock and make fun of the Bible and people who believe that the Bible is true and follow Jesus all you want. However, I do encourage you to research about Christians who fought against slavery because they believe the Bible is true and that all people are one in Jesus, no matter their ethnicity or gender or social status.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Some advice to the lady who likes to do random interpretations; from a Christian Academia;


    Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. [1 Corinthians 7:21]

    Vincent's Word Studies

    Use it rather

    Whether the apostle means, use the bondage or use the freedom - whether, take advantage of the offer of freedom, or, remain in slavery - is, as Dean Stanley remarks, one of the most evenly balanced questions in the interpretation of the New Testament. The force of καὶ even, and the positive injunction of the apostle in 1 Corinthians 7:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:24, seem to favor the meaning, remain in slavery. The injunction is to be read in the light of 1 Corinthians 7:22, and of Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11; 1 Corinthians 12:13, that freeman and slave are one in Christ; and also of the feeling pervading the Church of the speedy termination of the present economy by the second coming of the Lord. See 1 Corinthians 7:26, 1 Corinthians 7:29. We must be careful to avoid basing our conclusion on the modern sentiment respecting freedom and slavery.
    Hello Perseveranze,

    I boldened some in the verse you quoted above. Thankfully, many wonderful Christian men and women didn't read what you quoted, but rather through God's Holy Spirit, understood that Christianity condemns slavery to humans, and condones unity between humans, no matter their ethnicity, gender, or social status.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello Perseveranze,

    I boldened some in the verse you quoted above. Thankfully, many wonderful Christian men and women didn't read what you quoted, but rather through God's Holy Spirit, understood that Christianity condemns slavery to humans, and condones unity between humans, no matter their ethnicity, gender, or social status.

    Peace and God bless you
    "Through God's holy spirit".

    Lol. Hey, I don't care if you want to be dishonest and re-interpret things, whatever makes you happy.

    It's just from a secular perspective, it does hurt credibility.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    "Through God's holy spirit".

    Lol. Hey, I don't care if you want to be dishonest and re-interpret things, whatever makes you happy.

    It's just from a secular perspective, it does hurt credibility.
    You should be the last person ridiculing the "through god's spirit" phrase. I believe it was your false "prophet" who was "divinely inspired" no?
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    "Through God's holy spirit".

    Lol. Hey, I don't care if you want to be dishonest and re-interpret things, whatever makes you happy.

    It's just from a secular perspective, it does hurt credibility.
    Hello Perserveranze,

    May God show you the wonderful wisdom of Jesus and grant you His Holy Spirit to guide you.

    Jesus warned that people would falsely accuse and insult and mock, and even persecute. However, I am learning by God's grace not to let it bother me, because I know that someday, I will see Jesus face to face, and that he is pleased with me following no matter what people accuse me of or how they mock.

    Peace and God bless you
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    Isn't the issue of whether or not Christianity condones slavery rather a minor point, given that there's still no evidence that Jesus was the son of God?

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