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British private schools - now just for the rich and foreigners

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Applying to Uni? Let Universities come to you. Click here to get your perfect place 20-10-2014
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    (Original post by Fires)
    It does and directly, partly through tax reliefs for contributors, partly through VAT alleviations and partly through the lack of corporate taxes paid. Many "independent" schools are not truly independent at all - they would never survive without this status unless they substantially raised their fees. In effect, the general taxpayer is subsidising privileged education for the few and that "privilege subsidy" is then being further extended to Oxbridge.

    I recall reading a few years back some research that showed that the average taxpayer contributes £40 a year more to wealthy kids' education than they do to non-private school kids education.
    So what you are actually saying is that private schools do not (in your view) pay enough tax, they are not given money from the taxpayer, they merely keep more money than you would have them keep.

    So wouldn't your views make them even more elitist by making them more costly to run, and therefore only available to a smaller group of wealthier people?
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    (Original post by Fires)
    It does and directly, partly through tax reliefs for contributors, partly through VAT alleviations and partly through the lack of corporate taxes paid. Many "independent" schools are not truly independent at all - they would never survive without this status unless they substantially raised their fees. In effect, the general taxpayer is subsidising privileged education for the few and that "privilege subsidy" is then being further extended to Oxbridge.

    I recall reading a few years back some research that showed that the average taxpayer contributes £40 a year more to wealthy kids' education than they do to non-private school kids education.
    That just means they are tax exempt.

    Being tax exempt does not mean it is a subsidy because all private schools are tax exempt. The point of a subsidy is confer a particular monetary advantage over others. This does not do that.
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    And? If state schools were up to scratch then people not being able to afford to go to private schools wouldn't be an issue now would it?

    We can't better ourselves by dragging down private schools, the only solution is to make state schools better.
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    (Original post by looneylamb)
    I go to a private school and there's no way that my family is defined as "rich". My mum works part-time with a fairly standard income, whilst my dad has just been made redundant. I received a bursary of up to 30% off of my annual school bill (roughly). I know that plenty of my friends currently at my school are in fairly similar situations where their parents only just scrape by to afford the school fees.

    It's not a matter of the parents not CARING about their child, it's quite the opposite in my case. I used to go to one of the top 5 state schools in my area (well, it used to be) and I turned up and was given the worst set of teachers I've ever had (and I've had a fair few in my lifetime). My dad moved me into a private school because he knew that I wasn't getting the attention that I needed in order to excel and get a better education. It wasn't because I wasn't working hard enough, it's because I simply had NO place to start from. My classes were continually full of loud idiots who spoke during the entire length of the lesson. How was I meant to understand where to start, let alone what to revise? I was predicted a C or D for Double Science at GCSE at that school and after going to private school I ended up getting an A. I'm not having a stab at state schools, I know that there are plenty of good ones and even the one I was at wasn't bad at all, I just didn't have luck on my side when it came to teachers and other students in my class.

    To be honest, I would have probably had the same negative opinion as several others of you if you'd asked me the same question 5 years ago. However, I think it's very rich of you (pun intended) to judge those who attend private schools when in fact you probably have had no experience with them.
    I never said that all privately educated students have rich parents, I didn't even mention anything about the wealth of the children's parents.

    At one point during my attendance at a state primary school, I was predicted to get a 3a in my English SATS. But with hard work, I got a 5b and the quality of teaching hadn't change during that period.

    I don't have a negative view of private schools, far from it. In fact, I would have loved to have gone to a private school instead of a state comprehensive, as I'm sure the behaviour of both students and teachers would have been considerably better than the school I go to now. I was just trying to get across that how hard you try in school will ultimately decide how successful you are in school and later life more so than the actual school you went to.
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    (Original post by Tahooper)
    I never said that all privately educated students have rich parents, I didn't even mention anything about the wealth of the children's parents.

    At one point during my attendance at a state primary school, I was predicted to get a 3a in my English SATS. But with hard work, I got a 5b and the quality of teaching hadn't change during that period.

    I don't have a negative view of private schools, far from it. In fact, I would have loved to have gone to a private school instead of a state comprehensive, as I'm sure the behaviour of both students and teachers would have been considerably better than the school I go to now. I was just trying to get across that how hard you try in school will ultimately decide how successful you are in school and later life more so than the actual school you went to.
    Not having a go, but not everyone has the same focused work ethic as you, and some parents can pay to make sure their children still obtain decent grades even if they aren't as academically focused in life, just to make sure they end up on a viable income, instead of benefits for instance.
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    (Original post by Fires)
    You may not feel "wealthy" but of course to many people one of the definitions of "wealthy" is being at private school. It's all relative - but I've noticed on TSR that anyone deemed the least bit "wealthy" by the mob is immediately negged all to hell - on the other hand, most people who are wealthy seem very reluctant to admit to it. Not all, but many.

    It sounds to me from your description as if you are very much at the lower end of the private school heirarchy though - your fees are fairly low by national standards. I assume you are not boarding?
    Yes I don't board. I live about 10 mins drive from school
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    (Original post by Ra Ra Ra)
    Oxymoron :rofl:
    I know, i thought that when typing it but its true, once you pay the fees, im officially poor
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    I was private schooled and started college in the September just gone and trust me I'm not racist but there are loads of asians there. Thats why my new motto is:

    No matter how clever you think you are, there will always be a 7 year old asian kid smarter than you
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    (Original post by HelenOn)
    I am doing Statistics at Uni enough to know that arguments can be stilted any which way, but OP is at least right about the disproportionate representation - only 8% of UK school attenders are at fee-paying schools, yet they make up, what, 48% of the Oxbridge intake? Clearly there is a bias, and a huge one, no matter what the underlying causes of that bias.
    and completely disregards the bias against Oxbridge applications from state schools without a history of sending pupils that way or the schools that have convinced themselves that only a few percent of the state school sixth population stands a chance ...

    the same issues apply with medicine and dentistry where ignorance or lack being willing to take a risk on behalf of heads of Sixth form means Oxbridge calibre candidates are instead persuaded to aim a little lower i.e. Red-bricks and Plate Glass
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    (Original post by ah.meh)
    How does the taxpayer subsidise private schools?
    charitable status despite dubious charitable output, is the main issue

    and the USE of CEA by military families when CEA was there for the asking rather than being based on the potential fro educational disruption due to the parentals being posted ...
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    (Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
    I wouldn't say my family is particularly wealthy...just a Middle Class family that scraps the bottom of the barrel.
    Do you mean... scrapes? Ouch. I hope that money is being put to good use.

    jkjk
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    (Original post by jismith1989)
    And of course it's not the case that Oxbridge reserves places for applicants from private schools, it's simply the case that privately educated kids are more likely to 1) have more knowledge of the requisite hoops through which one has to jump, and 2) be more encouraged, and/or motivated, to do the jumping.
    So the advantage is de facto, not de juro. Doesn't make a single bit of difference.
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    (Original post by 08rbut)
    I know, i thought that when typing it but its true, once you pay the fees, im officially poor
    Jesus, how do you get by?

    I'd hate to be poor after paying for my private school fees. ****ing hell.
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    (Original post by Mr Disco)
    So the advantage is de facto, not de juro. Doesn't make a single bit of difference.
    Well, I don't think those terms are necessarily the best to use here (it's de jure btw), but if you're saying that both indirect and direct unearned advantage are morally equivalent, and that they're both morally bad, I agree with you -- in an ideal world, no one would profit, or suffer, from the vicissitudes of their birth. The problem is that human biology/reproduction isn't necessarily set up with morality in mind (just think of people who are born with the most horrendous disabilities, suffering throughout their lives, enduring multiple operations, all the time in pain; the inequality between us and someone like that is one that'd be worth sorting out if we could, but nature works with trial and error without concern for the quality of the lives it creates [and eugenics is generally just as cruel]). Even the Soviets couldn't stop parents passing on advantages (in terms of environment, genetics, money, knowledge, food, skills etc.) to their kids. Of course, that isn't to say that we can't put policies in place to stop the grossest disparities and to encourage altruism, and I'm all for that, but we have to remember that we're not likely to be able to completely re-engineer humanity (quite yet, and even if we could, we'd **** it up, since we'd be the imperfect creatures in charge of it all).
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    im bored replying
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    (Original post by jismith1989)
    Well, I don't think those terms are necessarily the best to use here (it's de jure btw), but if you're saying that both indirect and direct unearned advantage are morally equivalent, and that they're both morally bad, I agree with you -- in an ideal world, no one would profit, or suffer, from the vicissitudes of their birth. The problem is that human biology/reproduction isn't necessarily set up with morality in mind (just think of people who are born with the most horrendous disabilities, suffering throughout their lives, enduring multiple operations, all the time in pain; the inequality between us and someone like that is one that'd be worth sorting out if we could, but nature works with trial and error without concern for the quality of the lives it creates [and eugenics is generally just as cruel]). Even the Soviets couldn't stop parents passing on advantages (in terms of environment, genetics, money, knowledge, food, skills etc.) to their kids. Of course, that isn't to say that we can't put policies in place to stop the grossest disparities and to encourage altruism, and I'm all for that, but we have to remember that we're not likely to be able to completely re-engineer humanity (quite yet, and even if we could, we'd **** it up, since we'd be the imperfect creatures in charge of it all).

    But this isn't about natural advantages that might be passed on genetically. This is about private school kids being coached on how to get in to Oxford and Cambridge, thereby depriving those from state schools who are more intelligent and more deserving of places. This is surely to the detriment of society.
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    (Original post by gernumblies)
    £13,800 a year makes mine look cheap. :gasp: Sounds like you're taking very top-end schools as the basis for your argument.

    I've always wondered how much it costs the government to fund one child right through state education, though. If you took everyone out of private and put them in state schools/academies they'd be in a mess.
    Depends on the area, but it ranges from around £4,000 in the SW to about £16,000 in the SE per pupil per year for the government
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    (Original post by Mr Disco)
    But this isn't about natural advantages that might be passed on genetically. This is about private school kids being coached on how to get in to Oxford and Cambridge, thereby depriving those from state schools who are more intelligent and more deserving of places. This is surely to the detriment of society.
    The only "coaching" I've had from a private school on how to get in to Oxford and Cambridge was generic information I could easily have (and already had) found on the internet. I went to a state school before now and already knew what I've been told this year.
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    (Original post by berryripple)
    The only "coaching" I've had from a private school on how to get in to Oxford and Cambridge was generic information I could easily have (and already had) found on the internet. I went to a state school before now and already knew what I've been told this year.
    Of course every single of the of 50% of the Oxbridge population who were educated privately owe nothing to the private education denied to others.

    Makes you wonder why their parents bother shelling out so much money for it.
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    (Original post by Mr Disco)
    Of course every single of the of 50% of the Oxbridge population who were educated privately owe nothing to the private education denied to otherwise.

    Makes you wonder why their parents bother shelling out so much money for it.
    What you were talking about was specifically "being coached for Oxford and Cambridge", not general advantages.

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