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Feminism and the job market

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    (Original post by medigirl)
    Many people I know have their life planned out to m arry a rich man and coast through life on his money. They want to have their children and remain housewives for life. They have no ambitions of a career or any further education but to find a man and let him take care of them.
    Is it wrong that this concept of relying on a man and discarding your independance annoys me?

    I don't know what cretin decided to belittle the role of a mother, but seriously, they are stupid. Or they had a bad relationship with their mother, so seek to demean mothers everywhere as pathetic unambitious house pets. Looking after your kids is the most worthy thing any parent (of either sex) can do, be it emotionally or financially. The government giving more parental leave to women leads to women being paid less and hence being the more sensible choice to stay at home (if it's affordable), and that gets passed down through society over time. However, it certainly is no bad thing to be a present mother.

    And are you ever truly independent? You rely on a lot of people to do their jobs, be they the police, doctors, farmers or the utility companies.

    (Original post by medigirl)
    Its not the medicine its the fact that women have fought for equality for years and so many women i know ignore their oppourtunities and want nothing more in life than to be subserviant to a man :/
    Subservient? You could argue it's the other way round, the man going to work only to give the bulk of it to his wife (women make most of the money decisions in a relationship).
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    (Original post by medigirl)
    Many people I know have their life planned out to m arry a rich man and coast through life on his money. They want to have their children and remain housewives for life. They have no ambitions of a career or any further education but to find a man and let him take care of them.
    Is it wrong that this concept of relying on a man and discarding your independance annoys me?
    Feminism was about giving women the freedom to choose what they wanted in life if they want to be mothers and home makers then that is fine.

    If you want to go out and study, have a career, never marry or have children or try and find some way to do both then that is fine too however it is the freedom to choose that Feminists fought for, there is no imperative place on any woman that she must do any one thing and I see no reason why it should annoy you.

    Feminism has been to a fairly large extent in the past 30 years been co-opted by capitalism which manipulated the values of second wave feminism to benefit industry, and corporate interests something that is Nina Power brilliantly discusses in her book One Dimensional Woman.
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    nope a lot of women have suffered and worked very hard in order to gain us the independence we now take for granted
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    (Original post by medigirl)
    Feminism is the freedom to do whatever you want because you are equal in life. I'm just shocked so many women still 'choose' to stay at home
    Staying at home isn't as bad and oppressive as you make it out to be. It's far more relaxing than the stress of a 9 to 5.
    I'd do it if I was a girl. Hell, I might do it anyway if my future wife is earning good money and we have kids to look after.
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    (Original post by medigirl)
    Many people I know have their life planned out to m arry a rich man and coast through life on his money. They want to have their children and remain housewives for life. They have no ambitions of a career or any further education but to find a man and let him take care of them.
    Is it wrong that this concept of relying on a man and discarding your independance annoys me?
    I agree. It is not just women who lack ambition. I would say that the men who want to be 'bread-winners' who will end up marrying the people you know will just end up being robot wage slaves and, along with their wives, they will allow their brains to slowly die.
    It annoys me too though I think that people should always have a choice, so they can do that **** if they want. We need to stop biased education though. By that, I mean women (and men, but just to address your stimulus) should be encouraged frm a young age to try to change the world and do something important rather than just become a housewive.
    In your experience (of education - i.e. parents, primary school teachers, childrens tv shows) do you feel like people have tried to indoctrinate you into believing in this conservative, patriarchal idea that women should just be housewives?
    BTW with regards to your comment about your English discussion, the only way to right that wrong is by arguing with everyone else and explaining to them why they are wrong. They should realise then how stupid their beliefs are. There is no sense in just acting shocked and complaining on the internet.
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    (Original post by medigirl)
    Many people I know have their life planned out to m arry a rich man and coast through life on his money. They want to have their children and remain housewives for life. They have no ambitions of a career or any further education but to find a man and let him take care of them.
    Is it wrong that this concept of relying on a man and discarding your independance annoys me?
    How do you know that the man is going to play ball? I certainly wouldn't. Why should I share my hard-earned money with some female when I could instead just either:

    a) save it, or
    b) spend it on myself, or
    c) donate to an established charity.
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    (Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
    Oh, I do love liberals. Such idealists.

    Observe;

    If women should have the choice to stay at home then equally men should have the choice to stay at home. Then we can join together and skip across rainbows as free money rains from the sky.

    No. Nowadays people are expected to support themselves. Men are expected to support themselves, and as equality pushes on, women are too.

    Feminism is about equality for all, not the choice to be equal for some.
    I don't think there's anything particularly idealistic about what I've posted. It's the way things are.

    People are not expected to support themselves if they're in a relationship with someone who doesn't mind supporting them. The choice to stay at home has less to do with your gender and more to do with if your partner (if you have one) is prepared to support you.

    Also, "nowadays"? Since when was people working to support themselves some new and exciting concept? It's been the case in pretty much every society throughout history. If anything, people not working to support themselves is the newer concept, what with the increasing size of the welfare state over the past century.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    I don't know what cretin decided to belittle the role of a mother, but seriously, they are stupid. Or they had a bad relationship with their mother, so seek to demean mothers everywhere as pathetic unambitious house pets. Looking after your kids is the most worthy thing any parent (of either sex) can do, be it emotionally or financially. The government giving more parental leave to women leads to women being paid less and hence being the more sensible choice to stay at home (if it's affordable), and that gets passed down through society over time. However, it certainly is no bad thing to be a present mother.
    I agree. The amount of abuse mothers get from so-called feminists (who are meant to be supporting women) is shocking.
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    (Original post by Yawn11)
    Boo-****ing-hoo.
    This.
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    (Original post by medigirl)
    Feminism is the freedom to do whatever you want because you are equal in life. I'm just shocked so many women still 'choose' to stay at home
    I'd choose to do that I reckon, if I had such a choice.
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    (Original post by effofex)
    How do you know that the man is going to play ball? I certainly wouldn't. Why should I share my hard-earned money with some female when I could instead just either:

    a) save it, or
    b) spend it on myself, or
    c) donate to an established charity.
    Erm... I'm sure a woman who wishes to stay at home would clock on to whether or not a guy would support them before marrying/having kids with them.

    There are plenty of guys who would happily support their partner. I would as long as she did the housework.
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    (Original post by medigirl)
    Its not the medicine its the fact that women have fought for equality for years and so many women i know ignore their oppourtunities and want nothing more in life than to be subserviant to a man :/
    The opportunities are there if women choose to. Some women want to be housewives, some want to be lawyers, some want to be footballers. If anything, feminism has granted the ability to choose between the conventional/nuclear housewife, the independent-ambitious woman or the synthesis between the two. If a woman chooses to be a subservient to a man, they have a right to pick that destiny for themselves, no? I think the ability for women to choose their own destiny as opposed to being (perhaps pressured in certain circumstances) independent is the true fruit of feminism. Remember, feminism wasn't universally accepted by all women. Some women wished to remain to the conventional family model that had worked for decades/centuries. Ambition that fuels desire in a workplace is the same fuel that goes into holding a household together.
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    (Original post by When you see it...)
    I agree. It is not just women who lack ambition. I would say that the men who want to be 'bread-winners' who will end up marrying the people you know will just end up being robot wage slaves and, along with their wives, they will allow their brains to slowly die.
    It annoys me too though I think that people should always have a choice, so they can do that **** if they want. We need to stop biased education though. By that, I mean women (and men, but just to address your stimulus) should be encouraged frm a young age to try to change the world and do something important rather than just become a housewive.
    In your experience (of education - i.e. parents, primary school teachers, childrens tv shows) do you feel like people have tried to indoctrinate you into believing in this conservative, patriarchal idea that women should just be housewives?
    BTW with regards to your comment about your English discussion, the only way to right that wrong is by arguing with everyone else and explaining to them why they are wrong. They should realise then how stupid their beliefs are. There is no sense in just acting shocked and complaining on the internet.
    No I have been in no way indoctrinated to believe in this patriarchal ideal. in fact in my experience I have been encouraged to make my mark on the world and if i dont like something change it.
    I argued for 30 mins with my class they are all content in continuing their pursuit of a rich man to take care of them. I came on TSR to see if I was the only one who thought the way I do.
    Personally from my life I want balance, a career, a family, a social life this may be an idealistic vision but I just wanted to see if anyone else had the ambitions beyond the stereotypical housewife niche
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    Let's be honest here, the way you're looking at other women with contempt is internalised misogyny in its self.
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    (Original post by medigirl)
    No I have been in no way indoctrinated to believe in this patriarchal ideal. in fact in my experience I have been encouraged to make my mark on the world and if i dont like something change it.
    I argued for 30 mins with my class they are all content in continuing their pursuit of a rich man to take care of them. I came on TSR to see if I was the only one who thought the way I do.
    Personally from my life I want balance, a career, a family, a social life this may be an idealistic vision but I just wanted to see if anyone else had the ambitions beyond the stereotypical housewife niche
    When you had the debate in English class, which side did the teacher take?
    I personally feel like teachers/parents and the like tend to be quite socially conservative and the media has tried to encourage me (from a young age) to persue orthodox, sterile ambitions that basically constitute being a 'bread-winner' whilst females are encouraged to be housewives.
    I think in order to make people more ambitious, we need to end this subtle brainwashing and promote genuine ambition and free thought. This should make women more independent and end all of these stupid traditions.
    If you have not noticed any indoctrination, how do you think your peers have come to the conclusion that it is better to be a housewife than have a career? I reckon it's the parents, teachers and politicians trying to 'pass on' the system that they grew up in. It leads to children having the same values as their parents and as a result they lack ambition, because those values are ****ing stupid.
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    (Original post by effofex)
    How do you know that the man is going to play ball? I certainly wouldn't. Why should I share my hard-earned money with some female when I could instead just either:

    a) save it, or
    b) spend it on myself, or
    c) donate to an established charity.
    because you love her and she's raising your children, you numpty
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    I don't think there is anything wrong with being a housewife/husband, in many families it simply makes more sense for one partner to not work, and wanting to stay at home with the kids is perfectly respectable.

    but actively seeking out a rich man to live off of? that is pretty bad.
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    (Original post by barnetbuzzzz)
    I don't think there's anything particularly idealistic about what I've posted. It's the way things are.

    People are not expected to support themselves if they're in a relationship with someone who doesn't mind supporting them. The choice to stay at home has less to do with your gender and more to do with if your partner (if you have one) is prepared to support you.

    Also, "nowadays"? Since when was people working to support themselves some new and exciting concept? It's been the case in pretty much every society throughout history. If anything, people not working to support themselves is the newer concept, what with the increasing size of the welfare state over the past century.
    People are increasingly being expected to support themselves independently of their partners. Moral judgements on this are hardening. One only has to flick through a tabloid or fashion magazine to see women branded as gold-diggers and men as gigolos. I appreciate that there is not a consensus on this yet, but views are certainly shifting in this direction - most probably due to the effects of feminism.

    The nowadays was referring to people being expected to support themselves, rather than men being expected to support themselves and their families, which historically was the case.

    Like it or not society is becoming more individualistic. Women no longer have an automatic right to chose whether or not to stay at home and will be judged against the new societal norm, in the same light as men who chose not to work.

    Please do feel free to disagree.

    I'm not arguing that there not any women that stay at home - that would be moronic. I'm arguing that there is no longer a free choice for women to stay at home as the social norm has changed and they are expected not to (thanks to the feminist movement.)
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    (Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
    People are increasingly being expected to support themselves independently of their partners. Moral judgements on this are hardening. One only has to flick through a tabloid or fashion magazine to see women branded as gold-diggers and men as gigolos. I appreciate that there is not a consensus on this yet, but views are certainly shifting in this direction - most probably due to the effects of feminism.

    The nowadays was referring to people being expected to support themselves, rather than men being expected to support themselves and their families, which historically was the case.

    Like it or not society is becoming more individualistic. Women no longer have an automatic right to chose whether or not to stay at home and will be judged against the new societal norm, in the same light as men who chose not to work.

    Please do feel free to disagree.

    I'm not arguing that there not any women that stay at home - that would be moronic. I'm arguing that there is no longer a free choice for women to stay at home as the social norm has changed and they are expected not to (thanks to the feminist movement.)
    I really like your point of view... its refreshing
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    (Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
    People are increasingly being expected to support themselves independently of their partners. Moral judgements on this are hardening. One only has to flick through a tabloid or fashion magazine to see women branded as gold-diggers and men as gigolos. I appreciate that there is not a consensus on this yet, but views are certainly shifting in this direction - most probably due to the effects of feminism.

    The nowadays was referring to people being expected to support themselves, rather than men being expected to support themselves and their families, which historically was the case.

    Like it or not society is becoming more individualistic. Women no longer have an automatic right to chose whether or not to stay at home and will be judged against the new societal norm, in the same light as men who chose not to work.

    Please do feel free to disagree.

    I'm not arguing that there not any women that stay at home - that would be moronic. I'm arguing that there is no longer a free choice for women to stay at home as the social norm has changed and they are expected not to (thanks to the feminist movement.)
    I don't see, though, why anyone should care about social norms when making decisions about whether to work or not.

    I may stay at home in the future if my wife is earning a lot and we have kids to look after. I personally couldn't give a flying **** if people think I'm a gold digger or gigolo or whatnot, people do still have freedom of choice and have the power to exercise that freedom. Social norms are merely widely-held opinions, they can't force people to do things.

    I get what you're saying, yes, peoples' opinions are shifting on issues like this, but that doesn't mean that women "no longer have an automatic right to choose whether they stay at home" - of course they do. Finding a man who will be prepared to support them may be more challenging, but there still are plenty. Social norms have certainly not shifted so far that a vast majority are not prepared to support their partners.

    Also, let's remember that a huge number of people get into relationships because they actually love a person, and love is probably likely to make a man more sympathetic to his wife if she wishes to stay at home etc. I wouldn't pay too much attention to what the tabloids say either - they deliberately broadcast controversial views to attract readers, they're hardly an accurate reflection of public opinion.

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