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Do the "Occupy" crowd even know the implications of revolution?

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    My impression of these clowns is of a bunch of wannabe hippies who think camping in tents and doing drugs is heaps of fun. They all enjoy the subsidies their society provides for them while simultaneously protesting the inequality of those very subsidies. As was pointed out very eloquently in this post during the last OWS movement "revolution is a burden, not a party."

    (Original post by ckingalt)
    How many of us today are willing to sacrifice our quality of life in the present, in order to have a chance at providing a better one for the future? At this point, that may be what is truly required.

    This site is represented by Libertarians, extreme Conservatives, extreme Liberals, and everything in between. As passionately as these ideologies often disagree, there is one belief regarding the state of our society that 99% of us agree on.

    Our governments, our economies, and the welfare of our societies have been hijacked by corruption, vested self interests, private agendas, and outright tyranny.

    The very basis for democracy is an attempt to prevent such insidious influences from prevailing through the empowerment of the people. If democracy has failed it is because we the people have failed in our commitment and due diligence to the responsibility entrusted us. What if we have indeed failed though? Is democracy adequately capable of removing these unwanted influences once they have prevailed? The democratic system when functioning as intended, provides only subtle course corrections. The private agendas which have infiltrated the system are well organized, highly efficient institutions. These institutions (for lack of a better description) have become the equivalent of a deeply embedded parasite which will kill the host rather than allow itself to be extracted. I’m not suggesting conspiracy, I’m simply acknowledging that human nature is for power to beget power. Revolution may be the only answer if we are serious about real change. Let us hope if necessary, it will be a peaceful one. What might that require?

    George Lakey in his 1973 book [1] and in his 1976 "A Manifesto for Nonviolent Revolution", laid out a five stage strategy for nonviolent revolution. Stage 1 Cultural Preparation or "Conscientization": Education, training and consciousness raising of why their is a need for a nonviolent revolution and how to conduct a nonviolent revolution. Stage 2.Building Organizations: As training, education and consciousness raising continues, the need to form organizations. Affinity groups or nonviolent revolutionary groups are organized to provide support,maintain nonviolent discipline, organize and train other people into similar affinity groups and networks. Stage 3. Confrontation Organized and sustained campaigns of picketing, strikes, sit-ins, marches, boycotts, die-ins, blockades to disrupt business as usual in institutions and government. By putting ones body on the line nonviolently the rising movement stops the normal gears of government and business. Stage 4. Mass Non Cooperation: Similar affinity groups and networks of affinity groups around the country and world, engage in similar actions to disrupt business as usual. Stage 5. Developing Parallel Institutions to take over functions and services of government and commerce. In order to create a new society without violence, oppression, environmental destruction, discrimination and one that is environmentally sustainable, nonviolent, democratic, equatable tolerant and fair, alternative organizations and structures including businesses must be created to provide the needed services and goods that citizens of a society need.

    I make the above reference because there are many parallels occurring today. The “Occupy” movement would be the most obvious example, though it’s on a much smaller scale than required. It is relevant however, because history and current events have taught us that these things can escalate quickly. If they do, are we truly prepared as a society for the actual sacrifices our convictions demand? The objective of stage 3 and 4 is to disrupt the function of institutions and government on a massive scale. The repercussions of such actions will cause us to, temporarily at least, lose many of the luxuries, basic services, entitlements, and securities that our culture has come to consider as rights.

    Would the protesters still have their enthusiasm to face the potential heavy hand of the authorities if they couldn’t be assured of receiving medical treatment? Would the masses support the protestors if the authorities were no longer able to provide a sense of security from rouge protestors and general lawlessness? Would the so called “disenfranchised poor” still resent the meager assistance they receive when they realized it was better than no assistance at all? Would the mighty intellectual students still preach a "New World Order" if their precious access to education was in jeopardy? I don’t think our society is prepared for real change because it’s a burden. To put it simply, we may not be ready for revolution because, as screwed up as the system has become, it just isn’t bad enough.

    Many of you may not agree with my beliefs. As a matter of fact several have gone out of their way to make that abundantly clear. Most of us share a desire to make the world as right as possible though. We just happen to view it differently. As Obnoxious as some of my beliefs are, I do not make them lightly. I once thought that the ultimate test of ones convictions is to be willing to fight for them. I have done so in more ways than one. I am now coming to realize there is a much more difficult test. The true test is to be willing to suffer for your convictions, and I’m not sure I will measure up. So I ask you again;

    Are you willing to sacrifice your quality of life right now, for nothing more than to have a chance at providing a better future?
    I think the occupy movement is a joke because they have no real will to sacrifice what they have now for a better future tomorrow.
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    (Original post by ckingalt)
    "How many of us today are willing to sacrifice our quality of life in the present, in order to have a chance at providing a better one for the future? At this point, that may be what is truly required.

    This site is represented by Libertarians, extreme Conservatives, extreme Liberals, and everything in between. As passionately as these ideologies often disagree, there is one belief regarding the state of our society that 99% of us agree on.

    Our governments, our economies, and the welfare of our societies have been hijacked by corruption, vested self interests, private agendas, and outright tyranny."

    Corruption is probably as low in the western world as it has ever been, if you think we live in outright tyranny, you're extremely naive and delusional, you don't know how good you have it.

    Corruption, self interest, private agendas are all human traits, what's laughable is how revolutionaries claim to look towards a better society which gets rid of all these things. The truth is, that's not going to happen unless your society doesn't involve human beings.
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    I have alot of Sympathy the occupy crowd completely, somthing needs to change at some point.

    Sitting outside in tents for a few days whilst playing angry birds on your IPhone is probably not doing much to stick it to the many though if I am brutally honest.
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    ipayed a visit to the occupy camp out side St Pauls about a week after it was set up and witnessed a rather amusing argument between one of the hippies and some banker fellow it went something along the lines of the hippie blaming all the worlds ills on the banker saying how evil capitalism was material wealth ra ra ra, with the banker retorting that he should bare in mind that the macbook air the hippie was typing on was paid for by capitalism, said hippie promptly says a long string of very naughty words which tsr would star out for me and walked off ... really did his cause a world of good..the others werent much better they just appeared to be a bunch of unemployed meth heads..
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    If I didn't like the way Starbucks ran their cafes, and protested... And if I were to stand outside Starbucks one day drinking a Starbucks coffee waving a placard that read 'Starbucks treats their employees badly', why would I be a hypocrite for drinking Starbucks coffee? I may like Starbucks coffee but dislike how they treat their staff.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    If I didn't like the way Starbucks ran their cafes, and protested... And if I were to stand outside Starbucks one day drinking a Starbucks coffee waving a placard that read 'Starbucks treats their employees badly', why would I be a hypocrite for drinking Starbucks coffee? I may like Starbucks coffee but dislike how they treat their staff.
    did you really just put forth that scenario and ask how thats not hypocritical?
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    That crap shoot is still going on? I forgot about it. To be honest they didn't really do anything, and I think most people forgot about them within a week.
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    (Original post by cl_steele)
    did you really just put forth that scenario and ask how thats not hypocritical?
    I don't view that scenario as hypocritical. I like technology. I many not like Capitalism very much, and probably hate corporate greed. What?! Am I not allowed to demonstrate against the tyranny of unfettered capitalism, narrow utilitarianism, and corporate greed, and like my Packard Bell Computer as well?

    I see no hypocrisy here whatsoever.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    I don't view that scenario as hypocritical. I like technology. I many not like Capitalism very much, and probably hate corporate greed. What?! Am I not allowed to demonstrate against the tyranny of unfettered capitalism, narrow utilitarianism, and corporate greed, and like my Packard Bell Computer as well?

    I see no hypocrisy here whatsoever.
    well for a start theres a large difference between a £200 packard bell and a £1500 apple secondly stop creating straw men and changing your scenarios...
    with regards to your starbucks one using the product of the company your lambasting is hypocritical, how is it not? starbucks is not the only company to make coffee for a start..
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    (Original post by cl_steele)
    well for a start theres a large difference between a £200 packard bell and a £1500 apple secondly stop creating straw men and changing your The...
    with regards to your starbucks one using the product of the company your lambasting is hypocritical, how is it not? starbucks is not the only company to make coffee for a start..
    The price is immaterial. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    The price is immaterial. :rolleyes:
    not when youre bashing the bankers for their rampant spending theres not.
    and is that really your best retort to your already rather poor argument?
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    (Original post by cl_steele)
    not when youre bashing the bankers for their rampant spending theres not.
    and is that really your best retort to your already rather poor argument?
    It really is immaterial, at least comparatively speaking. I can get an ipad for just £60 on Facebook. Should I be prevented from rallying with the anti-Capitalist crowd because I buy a cheaper ipad? I don't think so. I don't think it matters. To use my other scenario: I don't think the Starbucks coffee nor the price of a Starbuck's coffee matters, since I like coffee, and I like Starbucks coffee.... I just don't like how Starbucks treat their staff. The coffee and the price of coffee is immaterial.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    It really is immaterial, at least comparatively speaking. I can get an ipad for just £60 on Facebook. Should I be prevented from rallying with the anti-Capitalist crowd because I buy a cheaper ipad? I don't think so. I don't think it matters. To use my other scenario: I don't think the Starbucks coffee nor the price of a Starbuck's coffee matters, since I like coffee, and I like Starbucks coffee.... I just don't like how Starbucks treat their staff. The coffee and the price of coffee is immaterial.
    sorry i wasnt aware that facebook had become the latest online market place...?
    no again it is hypocritical ... if youre going to go off on one about how evil capitalism is and everything that it stands for youre pissing all over your point when you go buy a flashy high end laptop .. lets remember here a macbook isnt some ****ty little laptop you can pick up for £100 on ebay they cost a serious amount of money and considering theyre complaining about how poor everyone is it is not only hypocritical but highly ironic they are spending large amounts of money on something that as you so elequently put as 'immaterial'. they want big business and the banks to stop 'abusing' them then stop using there services. as i said you cannot bitch and gripe about these companies on one hand then use their services on the other ?
    and again if you dont like how starbucks treat there staff, think theyre unethical etc. then why are you using their goods? if you really gave a hoot about the evils of starbucks youd take a somewhat proactive stance on the matter instead of just sipping on a nice americano from the damn place whilst telling everyone else not to buy from them ... how is that not hypocrisy?
    but you see this is what i hate about these 'protestors' theyre happy to go out and make a scene, get some headlines and be a bunch of hoodlums and illegally invade UBS buildings [who have done nothing to them i might add] but at the end of the day they still use banks, they still utilize other capitalist institutions ... its hypocritical, its weak and above all its two faced ... they loose any semblance of the cause they are trying to get across and i deteste them for it, truly spineless.

    people in other countries like the middle east protest about something worth while; corruption, state murder etc. here they just complain that the banks have been mean and lent people money ... this is supply and demand, you dont lend to someone who doesnt want to have it lent to them, it is just as much there fault as the banks.
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    I don't know what Occupy stands for and I don't think many activists do either.
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    To be fair, doing drugs can be heaps of fun.
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    Personally I think there is a legitimate problem with the way the state and banking industry are organised and intertwined, but it is a structural issue not a moral one about 'greed'.

    Thing is the state of public discourse is appalling, there is a conservatism masquerading as liberalism on one hand, and a kind of leftish populism on the other which preaches anti-capitalist demagoguery and imagines it is saving the world from a new fascism.

    Reasonable libertarians get drowned out, they neither have the monied elites on their side nor can they appeal to the leftish mob who only do emotion and easy answers.

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