David Cameron: "The time has come for gay couples to marry"
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Original post by Perseveranze
You don't understand the point that's being made. If homosexuals did not come out, no one would really care about the subject, people would not be going around saying "homosexuals this or that" - the whole topic would never even be brought up.
Homosexuals could live their life in privacy without other people interfering in their business.
However, when they come out in public, people's views are challenged. It's like a collision in which the outcome (more often than not) is against the idea rather than in support of it. This is where homophobia stems even further, and the problems arise further.
Homosexuals could live their life in privacy without other people interfering in their business.
However, when they come out in public, people's views are challenged. It's like a collision in which the outcome (more often than not) is against the idea rather than in support of it. This is where homophobia stems even further, and the problems arise further.
Surely by that logic, you could do the same with, say, Muslims and Jews; would people still be Islamophobic or anti-Semitic if they kept their religious views to themselves? I think they still would, especially considering history. Most prejudices like this (and also racism, xenophobia, classism and so many other things) simply stem from fear of the unknown. If a person has never met anyone who belongs to any of these minorities I'm pretty sure they're going to have a lot more prejudices about them than if they are brought up to respect them. I like to think we are more tolerant of gays now than we were a few decades ago.
Original post by Perseveranze
Alot of homosexual suicides happen in the west, whereas it's seldom in the middle east.
Correlation =/= causation. Suicide amongst the general population is also higher here. Why? I don't know, perhaps it's due to cultural or religious reasons. What's important is that it may not be down to our attitudes towards homosexuals alone.
Original post by Perseveranze
Amnesty international, human rights, they're always on Iran's back for executing homosexuals, but they have little to say about homosexuals committing suicide or anything, because it just rarely happens. The topic is simply taboo, and it works in favour rather than against.
At least with suicides they have a say in it. With executions, it's a judge who decides that you should die, not you. The point of human rights organizations is to prevent governments from gaining the kind of power to decide on things like that. Though they may also campaign for the right of medical care and thus the ability to prevent suicides, I think they rightfully are more concerned with governments executing people for who they are.
Original post by ohirome
Er, are you aware of how many heterosexual couples have sex without protection? Do you think that only gay people can get HIV? Oh dear, you should possibly report your teachers for giving you such a *******s education. Bless.
Pink Flamingos avatar?
And this so true. I think the biggest risk groups (currently) of HIV are actually middle-aged women, but I could be wrong. Even if it - statistically - is gays that are high risk, it doesn't mean that every gay person will get it. Only the unsafe ones.
Original post by badumdumtscht
Pink Flamingos avatar?
And this so true. I think the biggest risk groups (currently) of HIV are actually middle-aged women, but I could be wrong. Even if it - statistically - is gays that are high risk, it doesn't mean that every gay person will get it. Only the unsafe ones.
And this so true. I think the biggest risk groups (currently) of HIV are actually middle-aged women, but I could be wrong. Even if it - statistically - is gays that are high risk, it doesn't mean that every gay person will get it. Only the unsafe ones.
It certainly is! Divine is my beginning, middle and end - hugely obsessed.
Original post by Eightyeight
If he genuinely finds homosexuality disgusting then you can't force him to accept it/find it undisgusting. As for being wrong there are some reasons but they are outweighed by the reasons in which homosexuality is normal. And he is right, not everyone has to agree with homosexuality - if they do or don't have reasons then that's up to them but trying to force them to like accept it/alienate them for having their opinion is wrong.
Finding it disgusting is not an excuse for being homophobic. I find the thought of gay sex disgusting, but do I discriminate gay people/believe they are inferior because they like it? No.
Original post by Jester94
I have come to the conclusion, after your numerous posts on this and other threads, that you are either a troll or an idiot - care to clarify which one?
Is ad homein and childish remarks also apart of the gene pool? The discussion is about life and death here, and how the effects of homophobia are effecting it and what the solutions are. Not some game.
Original post by Jester94
You seem to think that we should not target the poor behaviour of homophobes in this situation, because it is LGBT people's fault for coming out?
It's both parties fault. However, in the end it's mainly homosexuals that suffer, not those that perpetuate the homophobia actions.
For alot of people, homosexuality simply goes against their perceived notion of normality. Even those who do not see it that way, they are still (naturally speaking) disgusted by homosexual acts, and homosexuals (against hetro's) likewise would feel the same. There's also the problem of effeminity and the different way homosexuals may act, which to many can be provocative.
Stuff like this is always going to keep causing people to not fully accept homosexuals. It's quite different to say; racism, bigotry.
Original post by Jester94
Right, so we shouldn't try to stop racism, because it's black people's fault, and we shouldn't try and stop rape, because it's women's fault? Presumably if you were a teacher, you would punish the child being bullied, and not the bully, because that is obviously where the blame lies.
You don't understand, with race, people can see it from the outward and know that the person cannot change that. People really had no choice with racism. With homosexuality, people will feel that even though they cannot change their sexuality, they can still hide the the publicity of their sexuality.
With religion, people who are bigoted will still always feel that person can eventually change their beliefs anytime they like. There's not much of that kind of hope with homosexuals.
All we want to do is stop more of this (latest homosexual suicide case) from happening. We know we can't exactly change the opinions of the masses, especially how powerfully loyal to their beliefs many may be. That's why, it's always worth looking at alternatives because at the end of the day, the preserving of life is far more important than some title based rights.
Anyways, I don't mean any ill or anything, it seems like due to your biased nature, you wouldn't understand. So this convo is fairly pointless.
Let's just agree to disagree, not like there's much for you to complain, given how homosexuals are destined to get the "rights" they've always wanted to acquire, no matter what the cost.
(edited 11 years ago)
I don't even know why I bother, but here I go again...
No, the original discussion was never about life and death, you brought it onto to that in an insane attempt to justify your points. Do not try to lecture me on the basis of this discussion when it is you who has subverted that.
So it is the fault of a bullied child that they are bullied then? That is essentially what you are saying.
Well obviously it is homosexuals that suffer from homophobia, and not homophobes, that is pretty obvious and nobody is disputing that.
The different way homosexuals act? Are you ****ting me right now? How a person acts has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, for there are many heterosexual men who are exceedingly effeminate. There is no gay way to act, and I can be incredibly sure when saying that, given the opportunity, you wouldn't be able to pick even half the number of gay people out of a crowd based on their appearance and behaviour.
Homophobia = bigotry. Homophobia is also comparable to racism.
You seem to be under the impression that we go around every day, screaming about our sexual orientations at the top of our voices, talking in detail about our sex lives etc or that we just live in a constant Pride. We do not feel the need to 'publicise' our sexual orientation anymore than a heterosexual person does. That is actually one of the reasons people object to civil partnerships, because it forces you to declare your sexual orientation when required to declare your relationship status.
Also, sexual orientation cannot be changed, thus homophobia is comparable to racism, but it is based on something that cannot be changed.
Religion actually has nothing to do with the current debate on gay marriage, so frankly I've stopped caring about it when it is brought up on these threads. Religion, and therefore religious objections, have zero relevance to the current debate over gay marriage, for the debate is over the legalisation of civil marriage, an entirely secular institution (just as marriage was originally, before appropriated by various religions).
Trust me, the continued denial of equality to LGBT people , criticising people for 'publicising' their sexual orientation and blaming gay people for homophobia and the disgusting behaviour of homophobes will do nothing to stem the trend of depression and suicides among LGBTQ youth.
Don't call me out on being biased when you are no different.
That's good then, I can happily continue on my path to **** society over as long as I get what I want.
Original post by Perseveranze
Is ad homein and childish remarks also apart of the gene pool? The discussion is about life and death here, and how the effects of homophobia are effecting it and what the solutions are. Not some game.
No, the original discussion was never about life and death, you brought it onto to that in an insane attempt to justify your points. Do not try to lecture me on the basis of this discussion when it is you who has subverted that.
It's both parties fault. However, in the end it's mainly homosexuals that suffer, not those that perpetuate the homophobia actions.
For alot of people, homosexuality simply goes against their perceived notion of normality. Even those who do not see it that way, they are still (naturally speaking) disgusted by homosexual acts, and homosexuals (against hetro's) likewise would feel the same. There's also the problem of effeminity and the different way homosexuals may act, which to many can be provocative.
Stuff like this is always going to keep causing people to not fully accept homosexuals. It's quite different to say; racism, bigotry.
For alot of people, homosexuality simply goes against their perceived notion of normality. Even those who do not see it that way, they are still (naturally speaking) disgusted by homosexual acts, and homosexuals (against hetro's) likewise would feel the same. There's also the problem of effeminity and the different way homosexuals may act, which to many can be provocative.
Stuff like this is always going to keep causing people to not fully accept homosexuals. It's quite different to say; racism, bigotry.
So it is the fault of a bullied child that they are bullied then? That is essentially what you are saying.
Well obviously it is homosexuals that suffer from homophobia, and not homophobes, that is pretty obvious and nobody is disputing that.
The different way homosexuals act? Are you ****ting me right now? How a person acts has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, for there are many heterosexual men who are exceedingly effeminate. There is no gay way to act, and I can be incredibly sure when saying that, given the opportunity, you wouldn't be able to pick even half the number of gay people out of a crowd based on their appearance and behaviour.
Homophobia = bigotry. Homophobia is also comparable to racism.
You don't understand, with race, people can see it from the outward and know that the person cannot change that. People really had no choice with racism. With homosexuality, people will feel that even though they cannot change their sexuality, they can still hide the the publicity of their sexuality.
You seem to be under the impression that we go around every day, screaming about our sexual orientations at the top of our voices, talking in detail about our sex lives etc or that we just live in a constant Pride. We do not feel the need to 'publicise' our sexual orientation anymore than a heterosexual person does. That is actually one of the reasons people object to civil partnerships, because it forces you to declare your sexual orientation when required to declare your relationship status.
Also, sexual orientation cannot be changed, thus homophobia is comparable to racism, but it is based on something that cannot be changed.
With religion, people who are bigoted will still always feel that person can eventually change their beliefs anytime they like. There's not much of that kind of hope with homosexuals.
Religion actually has nothing to do with the current debate on gay marriage, so frankly I've stopped caring about it when it is brought up on these threads. Religion, and therefore religious objections, have zero relevance to the current debate over gay marriage, for the debate is over the legalisation of civil marriage, an entirely secular institution (just as marriage was originally, before appropriated by various religions).
All we want to do is stop more of this (latest homosexual suicide case) from happening. We know we can't exactly change the opinions of the masses, especially how powerfully loyal to their beliefs many may be. That's why, it's always worth looking at alternatives because at the end of the day, the preserving of life is far more important than some title based rights.
Trust me, the continued denial of equality to LGBT people , criticising people for 'publicising' their sexual orientation and blaming gay people for homophobia and the disgusting behaviour of homophobes will do nothing to stem the trend of depression and suicides among LGBTQ youth.
Anyways, I don't mean any ill or anything, it seems like due to your biased nature, you wouldn't understand. So this convo is fairly pointless.
Don't call me out on being biased when you are no different.
Let's just agree to disagree, not like there's much for you to complain, given how homosexuals are destined to get the "rights" they've always wanted to acquire, no matter what the cost.
That's good then, I can happily continue on my path to **** society over as long as I get what I want.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Perseveranze
All we want to do is stop more of this (latest homosexual suicide case) from happening. We know we can't exactly change the opinions of the masses, especially how powerfully loyal to their beliefs many may be. That's why, it's always worth looking at alternatives because at the end of the day, the preserving of life is far more important than some title based rights.
All we want to do is stop more of this (latest homosexual suicide case) from happening. We know we can't exactly change the opinions of the masses, especially how powerfully loyal to their beliefs many may be. That's why, it's always worth looking at alternatives because at the end of the day, the preserving of life is far more important than some title based rights.
If you truly want to stop homosexuals from committing suicide, you would begin by working on your own bigoted views since they are what tends to cause said suicide cases.
Kids getting bulled? Take them out of school and away from other children.
Being racially abused? Take to wearing a burqa so nobody can see your skin colour.
Been raped? Shame on you, its your own fault for being male/female.
None of the above makes sense, and neither do your lol-worthy solutions for homophobic abuse. Start with the perpetrators instead of the victims.
Original post by ohirome
It certainly is! Divine is my beginning, middle and end - hugely obsessed.
Yey! Someone else has seen that movie!
Original post by Perseveranze
You don't understand, with race, people can see it from the outward and know that the person cannot change that. People really had no choice with racism. With homosexuality, people will feel that even though they cannot change their sexuality, they can still hide the the publicity of their sexuality.
Sorry what? Actually imagine a world where you could never openly be in a relationship with someone you were in love with. Would that world be entirely tolerable for you? Or, to take a different analogy, I see you pretty publically declare you're a Muslim. There's a lot of Islamophobia in this country, is that partially your fault for being so openly Muslim?
Original post by badumdumtscht
Yey! Someone else has seen that movie!
haha, its one of my favourites. John Waters stuff is beyond excellent.
Original post by Gremlins
Sorry what? Actually imagine a world where you could never openly be in a relationship with someone you were in love with. Would that world be entirely tolerable for you? Or, to take a different analogy, I see you pretty publically declare you're a Muslim. There's a lot of Islamophobia in this country, is that partially your fault for being so openly Muslim?
Because I forgot, Islamaphobia is making Muslims go into depression and commit "suicide".
Lol no. And you're missing the point big time.
Original post by Perseveranze
Because I forgot, Islamaphobia is making Muslims go into depression and commit "suicide".
Lol no. And you're missing the point big time.
Lol no. And you're missing the point big time.
I'm not surprised you think he's missing the point, as you actually don't have a point that makes any sense or is backed in the way you think it is.
Original post by Perseveranze
Because I forgot, Islamaphobia is making Muslims go into depression and commit "suicide".
Lol no. And you're missing the point big time.
Lol no. And you're missing the point big time.
Given that your points are so ridiculously flawed and bigoted, you probably shouldn't be calling people out for taking no notice of them.
Original post by Perseveranze
Because I forgot, Islamaphobia is making Muslims go into depression and commit "suicide".
Lol no. And you're missing the point big time.
Lol no. And you're missing the point big time.
That's quite funny, seeing as how you have no point.
Original post by minimarshmallow
I'm not surprised you think he's missing the point, as you actually don't have a point that makes any sense or is backed in the way you think it is.
Original post by ohirome
Given that your points are so ridiculously flawed and bigoted, you probably shouldn't be calling people out for taking no notice of them.
Original post by Jester94
That's quite funny, seeing as how you have no point.
Let's just all agree to disagree. We all want the same thing at the end of the day, we want to preserve life without any unnecessary losses.
We just simply have a different method in accomplishing that, where either one of us can be right or wrong. We also differentiate in some matters, such as I believe homosexuals can live pretty fine and in peace by sticking to the don't tell, don't ask policy.
As it is, it seems like your method is currently being adopted, so let's just hope in the long term, I am wrong.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Perseveranze
Let's just all agree to disagree. We all want the same thing at the end of the day, we want to preserve life without any unnecessary losses.
We just simply have a different method in accomplishing that, where either one of us can be right or wrong. We also differentiate in some matters, such as I believe homosexuals can live pretty fine and in peace by sticking to the don't tell, don't ask policy.
As it is, it seems like your method is currently being adopted, so let's just hope in the long term, I am wrong.
We just simply have a different method in accomplishing that, where either one of us can be right or wrong. We also differentiate in some matters, such as I believe homosexuals can live pretty fine and in peace by sticking to the don't tell, don't ask policy.
As it is, it seems like your method is currently being adopted, so let's just hope in the long term, I am wrong.
Unless you are gay, you cannot comment on how it is to live as a gay person.
There's no need to hope, you are wrong, but I'm going to stop with this petty arguing now.
It's about time! But he's obviously only doing this to try and win back those seats he lost on Thursday. Nice and transparent, Mr Cameron!
Original post by Perseveranze
It's both parties fault. However, in the end it's mainly homosexuals that suffer, not those that perpetuate the homophobia actions.
It's both parties fault. However, in the end it's mainly homosexuals that suffer, not those that perpetuate the homophobia actions.
Please explain to me how homophobia and homophobic bullying/discrimination is the fault of the homosexual?
For alot of people, homosexuality simply goes against their perceived notion of normality. Even those who do not see it that way, they are still (naturally speaking) disgusted by homosexual acts, and homosexuals (against hetro's) likewise would feel the same. There's also the problem of effeminity and the different way homosexuals may act, which to many can be provocative.
How is any of that relevant? Are you trying to claim those are sufficient grounds for bullying/homophobia/discrimination/forcing people to stay in the closet?
Stuff like this is always going to keep causing people to not fully accept homosexuals. It's quite different to say; racism, bigotry.
It's really not. People used to think along essentially the same lines for race. And used exactly the same arguments. Your homosexuals should stay in the closet argument is essentially the only one that wasn't but you have yet to provide any compelling reason why homosexuals should have to hide their sexual orientation and heterosexuals should not.
You don't understand, with race, people can see it from the outward and know that the person cannot change that. People really had no choice with racism. With homosexuality, people will feel that even though they cannot change their sexuality, they can still hide the the publicity of their sexuality.
That's irrelevant. Why should the homosexual have to hide their sexual orientation if straight people don't have to? Why is it ok for a straight person to get married publicly, and hold hands with their lover on the street, and talk about who is hot and who isn't and who they want to date and such but not homosexuals? All of these are part of being out. Why should heterosexuals be able to do these things and not homosexuals? Especially considering it is psychologically harmful for homosexuals to stay in the closet.
With religion, people who are bigoted will still always feel that person can eventually change their beliefs anytime they like. There's not much of that kind of hope with homosexuals.
What? Homosexuals are also religious....and being homosexual isn't a belief. Many, most, if not all, homosexuals believe people can change their beliefs.
All we want to do is stop more of this (latest homosexual suicide case) from happening. We know we can't exactly change the opinions of the masses, especially how powerfully loyal to their beliefs many may be. That's why, it's always worth looking at alternatives because at the end of the day, the preserving of life is far more important than some title based rights.
Why can't you change the opinion of the masses? People used to be just as loyal to racism, and sexism, yet that doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been addressed, or that it can't change. It clearly can and has changed drastically over the past 30-40 years. This argument is pathetic.
I suspect that if this goes ahead, it may be one of the things that people remember most about Cameron's time in office. He's trying to bring equality to the UK - to bring it into the modern world, free from irrational religious discrimination.
I cannot fathom why someone of sound mind would not allow homosexuals to marry...it just doesn't make any sense to me.
To paraphrase something that George Takei (I think) recently quoted: "telling a gay couple they shouldn't marry because of your religion is like telling someone not to eat a burger because you are on a diet".
I cannot fathom why someone of sound mind would not allow homosexuals to marry...it just doesn't make any sense to me.
To paraphrase something that George Takei (I think) recently quoted: "telling a gay couple they shouldn't marry because of your religion is like telling someone not to eat a burger because you are on a diet".
Original post by Perseveranze
I believe homosexuals can live pretty fine and in peace by sticking to the don't tell, don't ask policy.
I believe that this would only work if straight people also had to keep their relationships and sexual orientations secret. Because if someone is out in public with women all the time (I mean like holding hands, PDA etc.), we can probably conclude that they are straight (or possibly bisexual, but at least that they like women) but if a guy is never seen acting like this with a woman, people will probably just conclude that he is gay. This leads to the same problem with homophobia that we have now, because you can work out who is gay and who isn't, or you get men pretending to date women in order to not appear to be gay - which is damaging to them because they are being forced to do this in order to avoid bullying and can also be bad for the woman if she doesn't know at first that he is gay and just using her (all of this also works with the genders reversed, it was just easier to do it using a gay man as an example but just flip it for a lesbian).
So yeah, if you're okay with that it might work, but I still highly doubt it because people will still be homophobic; you don't have to know somebody is gay to make them feel victim to homophobic comments - you can still say 'I hate gay people and think they are inferior to me' (I know someone wouldn't really say exactly that, but words to that effect) in the presence of a gay person without knowing they were gay and they'd be affected by this homophobic comment.
So your idea, while it may have good intentions, is still incredibly flawed.
(edited 11 years ago)
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