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Do you believe in mental illness

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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    lol.. Psychiatry is a tool to control based on 19th century moral thinking (keep the masses down).

    mental health professionals still believe not adhering to norms is a symptom of illness. So by that rationale, having different moral beliefs, religious beliefs, wearing a typical clothes, or having pink hair makes one mentally ill. :rolleyes:

    I guess bad news for British Baha'is, people who think it's unethical to eat any animal produce, or persons who dress like emos.
    Overlooking people who are 'quirky'. What about people who see things and hear voices that aren't there? People who genuinely think that they're a rabbit, not a person, or that everyone around them is a secret government agent trying to spy on them. Are they just not adhering the norms? Just not perceiving the world the same way most people do?

    I'm genuinely curious because I do think you have a point, but you lose it a bit by comparing someone who is completely out of touch with reality with someone who dyes their hair pink.
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    heh.. rationality is completely subjective.
    ....

    Are you seriously this ignorant? Because I almost cannot believe that someone can be as utterly ignorant as yourself.

    Rationality, derivate of rational.

    rational |ˈra sh ənl; ˈra sh nəl|
    adjective
    - based on or in accordance with reason or logic : I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation.
    - (of a person) able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically : Andrea's upset—she's not being very rational.

    Logic, is not subjective -- logic is a systematic set of rules which is sound and complete, such that only conclusions which are tautological consequences of a set of premises, can be derived from said premises. Any argument in logic which is valid is such that the truth of the premises guarantee the truth of the conclusion. For something to be logically valid and sound it must be a tautological consequence of some set of premises P1...Pn AND all of the premises MUST be true -- since the premises are all true (and it's valid) the conclusion will also be true. There's no subjectivity here... What on earth have you been studying that you think logic is subjective? :confused: Because you very clearly need to go back to whomever has been teaching you and get your money back.
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    (Original post by Notethis)
    No. It's really a farce that an increasing number of psychiatrists' methods are referred to "biological-psychiatry" when by definition mental illnesses are not physical- psychiatry shouldn't be a medical specialty. I'd never take a diagnosis from a psychiatrist seriously; they're puppets for the drug industry, and are responsible, and will continue to be responsible for generations permanently debilitated through chronic use of one or more of the so called miracle drugs. People tell you never to buy drugs on the streets because you "don't know what's in them", but at least the neurotoxicity of cocaine and other recreational drugs is well documented, and I'd rather take half a gram of talcum powder on board than any research chemical a psychiatrist is trying to prescribe me.
    I'm sure a psychiatrist (or for that matter, anyone educated in clinical psychology) would find your post deeply unsettling from a professional standpoint, if not perhaps for quite the same reasons as you cite.
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    ....

    Are you seriously this ignorant? Because I almost cannot believe that someone can be as utterly ignorant as yourself.

    Rationality, derivate of rational.

    rational |ˈra sh ənl; ˈra sh nəl|
    adjective
    - based on or in accordance with reason or logic : I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation.
    - (of a person) able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically : Andrea's upset—she's not being very rational.

    Logic, is not subjective -- logic is a systematic set of rules which is sound and complete, such that only conclusions which are tautological consequences of a set of premises, can be derived from said premises. Any argument in logic which is valid is such that the truth of the premises guarantee the truth of the conclusion. For something to be logically valid and sound it must be a tautological consequence of some set of premises P1...Pn AND all of the premises MUST be true -- since the premises are all true (and it's valid) the conclusion will also be true. There's no subjectivity here... What on earth have you been studying that you think logic is subjective? :confused: Because you very clearly need to go back to whomever has been teaching you and get your money back.
    How people reason is subjective, and based on our personality and experiences. I'm not referring to formal logic.

    Determining given actions as irrational cannot exist in an absolute sense.
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    (Original post by Anna150)
    Overlooking people who are 'quirky'. What about people who see things and hear voices that aren't there? People who genuinely think that they're a rabbit, not a person, or that everyone around them is a secret government agent trying to spy on them. Are they just not adhering the norms? Just not perceiving the world the same way most people do?

    I'm genuinely curious because I do think you have a point, but you lose it a bit by comparing someone who is completely out of touch with reality with someone who dyes their hair pink.
    Well as said, psychiatry was born in an era with a different morality. So controlling what was not the norm was part of that society's value system. Western society in 2012 is obviously vastly different to that of 1842.

    I guess I don't think psychiatry has much credibility. Most of the prescriptions that the mental health community makes are distinct from how people behave (in Western society at least). To me it seems they live in a bubble and don't even interact with wider society on a regular basis. Examples are how they say everybody meditates (this is the UK, not Tibet) and how eating healthy should be a norm (millions everyday eat the meat-sweet diet lol..)
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    How people reason is subjective, and based on our personality and experiences. I'm not referring to formal logic.

    Determining given actions as irrational cannot exist in an absolute sense.
    How people reason is subjective -- but a rational decision is one that is logical and logic not subjective.

    Determining given actions as irrational can exist in an absolute sense -- if their reasons were valid, such that their action was a logical entailment of a given set of reasons (premises) then their action was rational; if not, then their action was irrational.

    What about this is difficult to understand?
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    Moral thinking? You think psychological is based on MORAL thinking....? :confused: LOL
    What does moral thinking have to do with say, depression or schizophrenia? I didn't realize depression and schizophrenia are somehow immoral! LOL. You realize, technically, only an ACTION can be immoral, right? A mental disorder has literally nothing to do with morality -- How would I know? I've specialized in the study of ethics.

    Let me guess, you're in cahoots with the people who believe in aliens that abduct people and stuff too?
    that's not what I mean. Psychiatry was invented due to the moral values of the 19th century. Modern psychiatry still has that as a base.


    Are you REALLY this ignorant about psychology? In order to be a mental illness it has to cause mental distress, harm or dysfunction.

    Depression isn't a mental illness because it's "not adhering to norms", it's a mental illness because it causes psychological harm, distress and dysfunction.... The same with schizophrenia, GID, anxiety disorders, etc. etc.

    Do you know ANYTHING about psychology, at all? Because so far, you've showed complete and utter ignorance.
    If anything, psychology gives insight into the subjectivity of thought and perception. Psychiatry by contrast does not.
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    How people reason is subjective -- but a rational decision is one that is logical and logic not subjective.

    Determining given actions as irrational can exist in an absolute sense -- if their reasons were valid, such that their action was a logical entailment of a given set of reasons (premises) then their action was rational; if not, then their action was irrational.

    What about this is difficult to understand?
    I disagree, it depends on the individual's value system.
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    that's not what I mean. Psychiatry was invented due to the moral values of the 19th century. Modern psychiatry still has that as a base.
    Psychiatry stems from psychology -- explain to me how it's based on 'moral values'? :confused:

    Either something is a mental illness, such that is causes psychological harm, distress of dysfunction, or it does not. What does that have to do with morality?

    (Original post by dandarsford)
    If anything, psychology gives insight into the subjectivity of thought and perception. Psychiatry by contrast does not.
    Psychology does a lot more than that -- psychiatry is also highly related to psychology. What exactly is it that you think you psychiatry does? :confused:
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    I disagree, it depends on the individual's value system.
    That has no bearing on the validity of an argument (suppose that someone gives an argument for why they acted in such and such way).

    Either their conclusion (action) logically follows from their premises (reasons) or does not. There is no subjectivity in determining whether or not an argument is valid.
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    Psychiatry stems from psychology -- explain to me how it's based on 'moral values'? :confused:

    Either something is a mental illness, such that is causes psychological harm, distress of dysfunction, or it does not. What does that have to do with morality?



    Psychology does a lot more than that -- psychiatry is also highly related to psychology. What exactly is it that you think you psychiatry does? :confused:
    How else was psychiatry devised? lol.. It was based on a need to control and limit deviation.
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    That has no bearing on the validity of an argument (suppose that someone gives an argument for why they acted in such and such way).

    Either their conclusion (action) logically follows from their premises (reasons) or does not. There is no subjectivity in determining whether or not an argument is valid.
    That's the point. the fact is people use different means for rationalising.
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    How else was psychiatry devised? lol.. It was based on a need to control and limit deviation.
    .... You realize how utterly ridiculous you sound, correct?

    Psychiatry is based on psychology. It was not 'based on need to control and limit deviation'.... Where on earth do you go to school, because you seriously need to get your money back....

    Back when psychiatry was started, psychologists already knew that something caused mental disorders. At that time, we knew that in quite a few cases, illness were caused by some sort of biological thing (i.e. bacteria caused illness, for example). So, psychiatry was invented to be the medical approach to psychology -- essentially, could mental disorders be cured using biological approaches (medication, surgery, etc.)

    Psychology and psychiatry are entirely related; they study the same things -- and no, psychology/psychiatry are not a form of social control....
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    That's the point. the fact is people use different means for rationalising.
    ....

    Again, you've missed the point.

    It's irrelevant HOW people get to their conclusion -- in philosophy, there are many different arguments which all reach the same conclusion.

    What matters is that the premises (reasons) logically entail the action (conclusion).

    Either the premises DO entail the conclusion (whereby the argument is logical and thereby rational) OR the premises do not not entail the conclusion (whereby the argument is not logical and thereby irrational).

    What about this does not make sense to you?
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    .... You realize how utterly ridiculous you sound, correct?

    Psychiatry is based on psychology. It was not 'based on need to control and limit deviation'.... Where on earth do you go to school, because you seriously need to get your money back....

    Back when psychiatry was started, psychologists already knew that something caused mental disorders. At that time, we knew that in quite a few cases, illness were caused by some sort of biological thing (i.e. bacteria caused illness, for example). So, psychiatry was invented to be the medical approach to psychology -- essentially, could mental disorders be cured using biological approaches (medication, surgery, etc.)

    Psychology and psychiatry are entirely related; they study the same things -- and no, psychology/psychiatry are not a form of social control....
    That's just a pretext.

    Many of the prescriptions taken by 19th century psychiatrists sought to control and regulate norms. Victorian society was very conservative and prim and proper, so what else could be expected?
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    That's just a pretext.
    You haven't provided any evidence for this whatsoever.

    (Original post by dandarsford)
    Many of the prescriptions taken by 19th century psychiatrists sought to control and regulate norms. Victorian society was very conservative and prim and proper, so what else could be expected?
    Many of the 19th century psychiatrists, just like psychologists, sought to find the source of mental disorders and how to cure them.

    Again, you've provided absolutely no evidence for your claims. Even worse is that we no longer live in the 19th century, so what's your point? Psychiatry has come VERY far since then in terms of research, knowledge, etc.

    Everything you've presented is mostly non-sensical opinion about how psychiatrists sought to control and regulate norms -- apparently all psychiatrists were evil doctors of mind control!

    You realize how ridiculous you sound, right?

    Let me guess, medical doctors sought to control people too!!!!
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    (Original post by NYU2012)
    You haven't provided any evidence for this whatsoever.



    Many of the 19th century psychiatrists, just like psychologists, sought to find the source of mental disorders and how to cure them.

    Again, you've provided absolutely no evidence for your claims. Even worse is that we no longer live in the 19th century, so what's your point? Psychiatry has come VERY far since then in terms of research, knowledge, etc.

    Everything you've presented is mostly non-sensical opinion about how psychiatrists sought to control and regulate norms -- apparently all psychiatrists were evil doctors of mind control!

    You realize how ridiculous you sound, right?

    Let me guess, medical doctors sought to control people too!!!!
    What I cite is common knowledge. And my reference to the 19th century is that such values persist in modern psychiatry. It is a dishonest practice, based on malevolence and not benevolence, as with the Western medical tradition in general. Ideally, psychiatry should be banned.
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    x
    After reading through all of your and NYU's comments. I think you need to brush up on the history of psychiatry. As it has its roots far longer back than the 19th century . Not to mention I think you need to look at current psychiatric standards. As the field has drastically changed since the 19th century. I in no way think it is without flaws, but you cannot claim that psychiatrists as a whole or psychiatry as a field are out to 'control society'. Psychiatrists in particular like to focus on biologically evident disorders and such. Please actually know what you are talking about before posting. For a good start you can look at wikipedia (they have some decent sources there) and then maybe take some classes or read some texts or academic papers on the subject.
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    (Original post by dandarsford)
    What I cite is common knowledge.
    (1) Common knowledge is not an acceptable bases for debate.

    (2) What you cite it not common knowledge -- what you cite is something called 'paranoia'

    (Original post by dandarsford)
    And my reference to the 19th century is that such values persist in modern psychiatry.
    No, they do not.

    And you have yet to provide anything remotely close to evidence for your utterly ridiculous claims.

    (Original post by dandarsford)
    It is a dishonest practice,
    No, it's not.

    Again, no evidence except your own paranoia.

    (Original post by dandarsford)
    based on malevolence and not benevolence,
    No, it's not.

    Again, this is still based on your paranoia and has no grounding in actual facts.

    (Original post by dandarsford)
    as with the Western medical tradition in general.
    Yes, all doctors are clearly evil.

    Again -- paranoia.

    (Original post by dandarsford)
    Ideally, psychiatry should be banned.
    Ideally you should seek medical help for you very obvious paranoia that the medical professionals are attempting to control the world!

    Let me guess, they're all headed by Doctor Evil!
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    (Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
    After reading through all of your and NYU's comments. I think you need to brush up on the history of psychiatry. As it has its roots far longer back than the 19th century . Not to mention I think you need to look at current psychiatric standards. As the field has drastically changed since the 19th century. I in no way think it is without flaws, but you cannot claim that psychiatrists as a whole or psychiatry as a field are out to 'control society'. Psychiatrists in particular like to focus on biologically evident disorders and such. Please actually know what you are talking about before posting. For a good start you can look at wikipedia (they have some decent sources there) and then maybe take some classes or read some texts or academic papers on the subject.
    it is a dishonest practice, with no benevolent intent. In that sense, it has no place being called medicine.

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