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Should the UK Government continue to support Turkey joining the EU

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    Cruelty in their orphanages followed by charging the Duchess with invasion of privacy: surely our Government should withdraw it's support for Turkey to join the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17956643
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    What does all this have to do with EU membership? When you go to a country you have to respect the laws they have there, as silly as they might be.

    That said, in this situation we shouldn't take the initiative and just straight out oppose their membership. Patience is a virtue. Wait and see what they do. If they actually take the initiative to address their own problems, then that can only be a promising sign and one that needs to be encouraged, not at all punished. Yet if they insist on extradition, arrogantly ignoring the problems addressed in the documentary, they will simply jeopardise their own application for membership. We are hardly the only European member state sitting on the fence with regards to their membership.
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    Yes, I believe Turkey's future is best served by being a Western looking democracy, and joining the EU will help that.

    I've been to Turkey, Turks are really cool people and really relaxed (generally) about Islam (most of the young drink, party etc).
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    That has nothing to do with the EU.

    Turkey will benefit the EU, and the EU will benefit Turkey. Situated between two continents, they'd be a very good link for Europe and the Near East for trade.

    Just need to leave Cyprus alone, and it'd be an inevitability.
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    Assuming that it will have no bearing on the numbers of migrant workers here, it could be a good thing. It's certainly the most liberal in that area but that doesn't make it the safest country. It could benefit from increased tourism. I still think the EU needs reorganising though because it's rather useless at the moment apart from free trade, which can easily be done in a way which doesn't dictate who can fish in our waters and ban us, and not to mention the occasional bitch slap to organisations like Microsoft.
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    (Original post by Brandmon)
    What does all this have to do with EU membership? When you go to a country you have to respect the laws they have there, as silly as they might be.

    That said, in this situation we shouldn't take the initiative and just straight out oppose their membership. Patience is a virtue. Wait and see what they do. If they actually take the initiative to address their own problems, then that can only be a promising sign and one that needs to be encouraged, not at all punished. Yet if they insist on extradition, arrogantly ignoring the problems addressed in the documentary, they will simply jeopardise their own application for membership. We are hardly the only European member state sitting on the fence with regards to their membership.
    The Duchess should be thanked for exposing the dreadful treatment of children. Turkey should be thanking her rather than putting her on trial.

    If found guilty the Duchess might face a 20 year jail sentence. This is barbaric and thus Turkey is not fit to join the EU.
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    You seriously think we should reject Turkeys bid for membership based on this crap ? She is a great nation with a rich culture a fast growing economy and would be an excellent bridging point to the arab world who currently hate the west ... give me an even half decent reason why Turkey shouldnt be a member and i may listen untill then we should be welcoming her with open arms.
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    (Original post by steve2005)
    The Duchess should be thanked for exposing the dreadful treatment of children. Turkey should be thanking her rather than putting her on trial.

    If found guilty the Duchess might face a 20 year jail sentence. This is barbaric and thus Turkey is not fit to join the EU.
    I hardly agree with their policies, but it is their country but not ours. That said, the very laws used to prosecute the Duchess are pretty much contrary to what is required to meeting EU membership requirements in the first place (chapters of the acquis to be precise). So their insistence to prosecute the Duchess will simply cost them their EU membership.

    Why shoot them at the foot when they can do it themselves. Saves all the hullabaloo we would create that would simply feed their arrogance.

    (Original post by cl_steele)
    You seriously think we should reject Turkeys bid for membership based on this crap ? She is a great nation with a rich culture a fast growing economy and would be an excellent bridging point to the arab world who currently hate the west ... give me an even half decent reason why Turkey shouldnt be a member and i may listen untill then we should be welcoming her with open arms.
    1. Not at all up to standard with the rest of Europe when it comes to freedom of speech and human rights. There is active censorship in Turkey and they don't recognise the rights of conscientious objectors for example.
    2. Occupies half of Cyprus and is not that willing to remedy the problem as of yet. The Turkish force there is recognised as an illegal occupying force.
    3. They act as if the Armenian Genocide didn't even happen out of sheer nationalistic pride. There is no room at all for that in Europe.

    I don't even want to hear geography lessons on why Turkey is not in Europe. Turkey is actually already part of the Council of Europe. But the European identity is not fully realised yet, and if Turkey actually makes the effort, it can easily become part of that identity. The three above points will simply make Turkey a better nation if remedied. Yet if they don't even try to address them, then they don't deserve to be in the EU.
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    (Original post by JimmiesArentRustle)
    The Turks should never be allowed into the EU. I find it funny that the Brits, who want out of the EU, are trying to bring in the Turks to totally ruin it. The turks are not of western culture, they are muslims, they are poor, they will just flood Europe with their their poor and uneducated. I'm sorry but we are already knee deep in unemployment without them. The turks should never be allowed in, especially with their authoritarian islamist government in power.
    They are Muslim. Therefore they are not European. Right...

    You do know Christianity originated outside of Europe, right?

    You're an idiot.
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    I think that there should be an agreed settlement in Cyprus first.
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    (Original post by JimmiesArentRustle)
    The Turks should never be allowed into the EU. I find it funny that the Brits, who want out of the EU, are trying to bring in the Turks to totally ruin it. The turks are not of western culture, they are muslims, they are poor, they will just flood Europe with their their poor and uneducated. I'm sorry but we are already knee deep in unemployment without them. The turks should never be allowed in, especially with their authoritarian islamist government in power.
    the ignorance of this statement is truly astounding... do you have any sources to back up this load of hogwash you have just typed up?
    for a start it is hardly authoritarian.
    there is nothing wrong with being an islamist state?
    and the country isnt exactly the poorest out there with a GDP and growth out stripping many european countries ... make no mistake turkey is an up and coming power and given the right guidance, as lets not lie like any country it has its faults, it is undeniable it will be a great force for good within the EU.
    and as for your remark about western culture, just wow ...
    just curious but have you ever been to Turkey?
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    (Original post by Brandmon)
    1. Not at all up to standard with the rest of Europe when it comes to freedom of speech and human rights. There is active censorship in Turkey and they don't recognise the rights of conscientious objectors for example.
    2. Occupies half of Cyprus and is not that willing to remedy the problem as of yet. The Turkish force there is recognised as an illegal occupying force.
    3. They act as if the Armenian Genocide didn't even happen out of sheer nationalistic pride. There is no room at all for that in Europe.

    I don't even want to hear geography lessons on why Turkey is not in Europe. Turkey is actually already part of the Council of Europe. But the European identity is not fully realised yet, and if Turkey actually makes the effort, it can easily become part of that identity. The three above points will simply make Turkey a better nation if remedied. Yet if they don't even try to address them, then they don't deserve to be in the EU.
    for your first point i agree but compared to many other nations of the world it is far, far better and steadily improving, no? arguably better than some of the slavic states that have been let in..
    second point, that is a highly debatable point which we could argue to the crack of doom but i feel i should point out that on the vote for unity the greeks rejected a union with the turkish north so the turks are not solely to blaim... and as for illegal occupying force well again some could argue the hypocrisy of some western nations on that front is heinous ... ive been to northern cyrprus, personally i feel its a lot nicer than the greek half but thats just my opinion :rolleyes:
    third point; that is hardly a reason to not let them in to the EU? and if we want to be technical about it Turkey didnt commit the genocide the ottomans did so yeah well either way regardless an incident that happened nearly a century ago is in the past is it not? the british, the germans, the serbs, the french etc. have all done their fair share of wiping out people... its just my opinion to let sleeping dogs lye...

    geographically well meh it makes little difference in my opinion, i am broadly speaking in agreement with you bar the cyprus and armenian issues, that if turkey were to improve her record on human rights she should be aloud into the EU as lets be honest shed be a very good ally both diplomatically and economically and could well provide a bridging point to the middle east which western europe has quite happily nuked :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by JimmiesArentRustle)
    I read the economist and if you didn't know Tayyip Erdogan is an authoritarian leaning leader. If you want sources google 'Turkey +the economist'.
    There is nothing wrong with an islamist state? Are you retarded? Look at: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, basically all the worst dumps in the world are islamist states. So shove that right up. Turkey will never be an up and coming power, I can wager a thousand pounds on that. And definitely not a force for good.
    well youre just an ignorant xenophobe now arent you? turkey is nothing like the states you have mentioned, half of which are failed i might add, it doesnt have significant tribal issues like the rest of them and is secular unlike them as well. do you know anything about these countries?
    oh you read the economist did you ? :O **** me you must be a bloody expert on the matter then.
    please just be quiet, your embarassing yourself with your racist generalisations. ignorant little boy.

    alright, do you want my bank details now to wire me the money or would you rather cut me a cheque? theyre already more economically powerful than many european countries and with a seriously impressive [and recession defying] growth figure they will continue to grow, just like china and india have [not to the same degree but none the less]
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    (Original post by cl_steele)
    well youre just an ignorant xenophobe now arent you? turkey is nothing like the states you have mentioned, half of which are failed i might add, it doesnt have significant tribal issues like the rest of them and is secular unlike them as well. do you know anything about these countries?
    oh you read the economist did you ? :O **** me you must be a bloody expert on the matter then.
    please just be quiet, your embarassing yourself with your racist generalisations. ignorant little boy.

    alright, do you want my bank details now to wire me the money or would you rather cut me a cheque? theyre already more economically powerful than many european countries and with a seriously impressive [and recession defying] growth figure they will continue to grow, just like china and india have [not to the same degree but none the less]
    No tribal issues in Turkey? Are you trolling? What about the huge problem of the Kurds and Tayyip's refusal to make peace procedures and instead attacking and imprisoning innocent Kurdish civilians.
    And Turkey's GDP growth is thin air, not sustainable.
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    (Original post by JimmiesArentRustle)
    No YOU are an idiot. Before all this multicultural hogwash what was the percentage of muslims in western europe? Yup a big fat ZERO.
    Europe has always been of christian heritage and now it is more irreligious but definitely not muslim.


    We only started being Christian 1500 years ago when we borrowed the religion from the Arabs. And half of Europe only converted to Christianity much later. We adopted Arabic numerals to advance our sciences and didn't mind applying Arabic names to many stars of the sky.

    Europe is such a great continent not because it is arrogant and purist like you, but because we are wise enough to know what is good and bad for us. That is why Europe colonised the world and others didn't, for better or worse.

    (Original post by cl_steele)
    for your first point i agree but compared to many other nations of the world it is far, far better and steadily improving, no? arguably better than some of the slavic states that have been let in..
    second point, that is a highly debatable point which we could argue to the crack of doom but i feel i should point out that on the vote for unity the greeks rejected a union with the turkish north so the turks are not solely to blaim... and as for illegal occupying force well again some could argue the hypocrisy of some western nations on that front is heinous ... ive been to northern cyrprus, personally i feel its a lot nicer than the greek half but thats just my opinion :rolleyes:
    third point; that is hardly a reason to not let them in to the EU? and if we want to be technical about it Turkey didnt commit the genocide the ottomans did so yeah well either way regardless an incident that happened nearly a century ago is in the past is it not? the british, the germans, the serbs, the french etc. have all done their fair share of wiping out people... its just my opinion to let sleeping dogs lye...

    geographically well meh it makes little difference in my opinion, i am broadly speaking in agreement with you bar the cyprus and armenian issues, that if turkey were to improve her record on human rights she should be aloud into the EU as lets be honest shed be a very good ally both diplomatically and economically and could well provide a bridging point to the middle east which western europe has quite happily nuked :rolleyes:
    In terms of rights, hardly. The rest of the world is irrelevant - there is a European standard set in stone in this regard and unless Turkey meets the mark, it is not getting in if anyone likes it or not.

    Secondly, it is illegal. Full stop. The reunification was rejected, unless you didn't educate yourself on the matter properly, because the terms offered were unfair. It was hardly a united Cyprus proposed because it would still be a federation of North and South. And on top of that, both North and South had to be represented equally 50-50, despite the fact that there are 800k people in the South and 250k people in the North. The Greek Cypriots were right to reject what was an ultimately flawed plan. Despite that, Turkey still maintains an illegal force of occupation there for no reason whatsoever, despite even the UN directly condemning it.

    Thirdly, yes it is. If you don't admit your past mistakes, you are not European. The continent suffered the death of millions because of nationalistic pride. Never again in any remote fashion. While the Germans, French, British and Serbs recognised and even some apologised for their respective wrong doings, the Turks didn't.
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    (Original post by JimmiesArentRustle)
    No tribal issues in Turkey? Are you trolling? What about the huge problem of the Kurds and Tayyip's refusal to make peace procedures and instead attacking and imprisoning innocent Kurdish civilians.
    And Turkey's GDP growth is thin air, not sustainable.
    i didnt say no tribal issues? learn to read. i said significant ... also the kurds arent a tribe theyre a people. no different from the situation in NI except the kurdish terrorists are more heavily armed.
    oh yeah good one. and our economys better? theres is driven by material goods that people will buy ours is driven by services and finance, sustainable? no.
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    (Original post by Brandmon)
    In terms of rights, hardly. The rest of the world is irrelevant - there is a European standard set in stone in this regard and unless Turkey meets the mark, it is not getting in if anyone likes it or not.

    Secondly, it is illegal. Full stop. The reunification was rejected, unless you didn't educate yourself on the matter properly, because the terms offered were unfair. It was hardly a united Cyprus proposed because it would still be a federation of North and South. And on top of that, both North and South had to be represented equally 50-50, despite the fact that there are 800k people in the South and 250k people in the North. The Greek Cypriots were right to reject what was an ultimately flawed plan. Despite that, Turkey still maintains an illegal force of occupation there for no reason whatsoever, despite even the UN directly condemning it.

    Thirdly, yes it is. If you don't admit your past mistakes, you are not European. The continent suffered the death of millions because of nationalistic pride. Never again in any remote fashion. While the Germans, French, British and Serbs recognised and even some apologised for their respective wrong doings, the Turks didn't.
    what makes it illegal then may i ask bar the obvious the UN condem it? it was there originally was it not? its little different from the falkland issue, some could argue.
    thats not really the entire point though the fact remains the turks have been somehwat consilatory on the matter the greeks, who dont even deserve the potty island, have not ... and lets be honest who manages which half better?
    its the same reason any country occupies something, they believe its theres and depending on your point of view it may or may not be theres ... what claim do the greeks have that over rides the turks?

    oh come off it... thats just completely outrageous! you cannot deny a country membership simply because they refuse to say sorry for it ... especially considering it was done in a time when such acts were, well lets be honest, not that un common. Yes but, with regards to Serbia, they did have the UN/EU army/airforce crapping all over them... if no one had interferred i doubt very much they would have ever said sorry. when did the brits ever say sorry for their massacres in africa? or the french for that matter? i just fail to see how a century old incident should bare any relation on the present its completely irrelevent to current happenings and it sounds like nothing but simple picking at any possible excuse to give the finger to the Turks.
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    (Original post by cl_steele)
    what makes it illegal then may i ask bar the obvious the UN condem it? it was there originally was it not? its little different from the falkland issue, some could argue.
    thats not really the entire point though the fact remains the turks have been somehwat consilatory on the matter the greeks, who dont even deserve the potty island, have not ... and lets be honest who manages which half better?
    its the same reason any country occupies something, they believe its theres and depending on your point of view it may or may not be theres ... what claim do the greeks have that over rides the turks?

    oh come off it... thats just completely outrageous! you cannot deny a country membership simply because they refuse to say sorry for it ... especially considering it was done in a time when such acts were, well lets be honest, not that un common. Yes but, with regards to Serbia, they did have the UN/EU army/airforce crapping all over them... if no one had interferred i doubt very much they would have ever said sorry. when did the brits ever say sorry for their massacres in africa? or the french for that matter? i just fail to see how a century old incident should bare any relation on the present its completely irrelevent to current happenings and it sounds like nothing but simple picking at any possible excuse to give the finger to the Turks.
    There is a difference between an actually independent and sovereign nation (Cyprus) and what is actually considered an extension of its territory by Turkey itself (Turkish Republic). Between an actually internationally recognised state and a self-proclaimed state only it's masters recognise. Then the Annan Plan had the cheek to suggest that not only does Cyprus disband it's army, but that the Turkish forces in Cyprus remains. Why are you surprised at all that it was rejected?

    Indeed the Cypriot question started with initial Greek aggression and then Turkish intervention. Luckily Greece has moved on since then and makes no claim on Cyprus. Turkey on the other hand didn't.

    And on the issue of the Armenia Genocide, something out of George Orwell's 1984 is not fitting to be in the EU. If you wish to be a free nation, you don't rewrite or censor history for the benefit of your pride. Sure, the British government didn't apologise for many of its wrong doings. But does it deny them? We are hardly asking Turkey to grovel in this case. Only to recognise what is obvious.
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    (Original post by Brandmon)
    There is a difference between an actually independent and sovereign nation (Cyprus) and what is actually considered an extension of its territory by Turkey itself (Turkish Republic). Between an actually internationally recognised state and a self-proclaimed state only it's masters recognise. Then the Annan Plan had the cheek to suggest that not only does Cyprus disband it's army, but that the Turkish forces in Cyprus remains. Why are you surprised at all that it was rejected?

    Indeed the Cypriot question started with initial Greek aggression and then Turkish intervention. Luckily Greece has moved on since then and makes no claim on Cyprus. Turkey on the other hand didn't.

    And on the issue of the Armenia Genocide, something out of George Orwell's 1984 is not fitting to be in the EU. If you wish to be a free nation, you don't rewrite or censor history for the benefit of your pride. Sure, the British government didn't apologise for many of its wrong doings. But does it deny them? We are hardly asking Turkey to grovel in this case. Only to recognise what is obvious.
    i was unaware of that bit of it :rolleyes: my bad

    you seem to be wise on the cyprus issue can you clarify something for me, half is greek and the other turkish yes? but cyprus is also a part of the EU is the whole thing in there or just the greek half?

    no dont get me wrong i do know where youre coming from but at the end of the day as you said its simply an issue of pride it doesnt affect anyone if the turks admit it or deny it and as for the french law even you must admit that was beyond the pail, no? all im saying is though that despite the human rights issues ongoing i dont think these relatively minor issues should have any baring on the situation not only due to their age, the fact theyre inconsequential but also due to the fact that the gains the EU would make from admitting turkey [and vice a versa] undoubedly out weigh any love loss over the issue no? i mean turkey has an economy bigger than most of the eu states and as i said in a prior post the diplomatic potential of adding it to the fold for the middle east could be expenential in its ability to good to the war torn middle east and relations, dont you agree?
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    (Original post by cl_steele)
    i was unaware of that bit of it :rolleyes: my bad

    you seem to be wise on the cyprus issue can you clarify something for me, half is greek and the other turkish yes? but cyprus is also a part of the EU is the whole thing in there or just the greek half?

    no dont get me wrong i do know where youre coming from but at the end of the day as you said its simply an issue of pride it doesnt affect anyone if the turks admit it or deny it and as for the french law even you must admit that was beyond the pail, no? all im saying is though that despite the human rights issues ongoing i dont think these relatively minor issues should have any baring on the situation not only due to their age, the fact theyre inconsequential but also due to the fact that the gains the EU would make from admitting turkey [and vice a versa] undoubedly out weigh any love loss over the issue no? i mean turkey has an economy bigger than most of the eu states and as i said in a prior post the diplomatic potential of adding it to the fold for the middle east could be expenential in its ability to good to the war torn middle east and relations, dont you agree?
    The whole of Cyprus is represented, through the Greek Cypriot government. Therefore the Turkish Cypriots are not subjected to EU legislation (since they make their own) That said, they are still recognised as EU citizens as far as I recall and benefit from the respective rights.

    And overall as I already said, it is just a matter of transparency of history. No truly free nation rewrites history. And hell, most fears about recognising the Armenian Genocide is that Turkey has to grovel about it. It doesn't. Indeed it is a separate entity from the Ottoman Empire. That said it is still the successor state of the Ottoman Empire and carries the responsibility of properly drawing true conclusions about events that in the end of the day happened within its borders. Indeed Nazi Germany was fully responsible for the horrible atrocities in Auschwitz. But it was the Polish government that then had to do the full care-taking and research to go along with it of Auschwitz to preserve the memory.

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