[gateshipone]

(Original post by squishy123)
Funny you didn't mention that there are more than "millions of people" on this planet...

Why would I? I was responding directly to what you said.

So your argument is that something bad for your health should not lead to suffering?

Nope, never said that. I do find it odd though that the suffering has to be so extreme. Why did God not make it that if you murder you die a slow painful death? Why instead is it simply burning a plant that gets an extreme punishment from the Lord?

The chances of getting cancer begin even before conception, according to one of the world's leading experts in nutrition. Women's lifestyles before getting pregnant and while carrying their baby have a major impact on whether their child will develop the disease, Professor Ricardo Uauy said.

Of course they have done nothing to deserve it, but again does that mean that the mother who smokes and drinks on a massive scale should be allowed to produce a healthy offspring?

You totally ignored my point. If it's the mothers fault, why punish the child? The suffering the mother experiences from having an unhealthy child requires that child to suffer great pain. How is that an example loving God looking after us?

[squishy123]

(Original post by gateshipone)
Why would I? I was responding directly to what you said.

I said there were a "few hundred sufferers" in "millions of people".

You stated that "few hundred" was incorrect yet you neglected to point out that there MORE than "a few million people" as I stated...

Nope, never said that. I do find it odd though that the suffering has to be so extreme. Why did God not make it that if you murder you die a slow painful death? Why instead is it simply burning a plant that gets an extreme punishment from the Lord?

Why murder in the first place?
Why smoke in the first place?

You totally ignored my point. If it's the mothers fault, why punish the child? The suffering the mother experiences from having an unhealthy child requires that child to suffer great pain. How is that an example loving God looking after us?

The CHILD was part of the mother. Therefore, the lifestyle choices that the mother made affects the child. You cannot distinguish between the two because they are interconnected.

[Neofytos]

(Original post by gateshipone)
I never said God is behind the suffering, just that if he exists and he's all powerful then it means he's unwilling to do anything about the suffering that's happening.

There is an easy answer on this stupid saying u all say. He is not helping cause He let us do as we wish. He left us on this planet somehow alone to test ourselves. Though when you ask His help, if u are loyal, with one way or another He will Answer/help. Its our fault that we are down on this earth and not in Heaven. I dont know how u call it in english, but i remind u of the story of snake and apple.So yeah we cant say unwilling but more of he let the human be responsible for the planet...

[Neofytos]

(Original post by amime)
Well in this situation.... before this man was even born, God would've known that this man would eventually be born and decide to start smoking and choose whatever path this man has in life.

If the Abrahamic god of the bible exists then humans do not have any free will despite what it says in the bible/koran etc. Therefore it is Gods fault.

I believeGod doesnt know the future cause man has free will, he was created after Him right? So yeah the future of our lives lies on our hands along with what is happenning on the Earth . I guessed i answered u. Future is a result of million choices

[gateshipone]

(Original post by Neofytos)
There is an easy answer on this stupid saying u all say. He is not helping cause He let us do as we wish. He left us on this planet somehow alone to test ourselves. Though when you ask His help, if u are loyal, with one way or another He will Answer/help. Its our fault that we are down on this earth and not in Heaven. I dont know how u call it in english, but i remind u of the story of snake and apple.So yeah we cant say unwilling but more of he let the human be responsible for the planet...

Using a talking snake to back up your claims isn't going to work. You know they're incapable of speech right?

I honestly don't think it's a stupid thing to say. Why would a loving God allow for innocents to suffer? If you believe it's because of Adam & Eve, what kind of God would punish an entire species for all time because of a woman who ate some fruit? Seems like an absolutely horrific thing to do.

Also, since you brought it up, why the hell did God put the apple tree there in the first place?! Seems like a dumb move to put one single tempting thing on the whole planet that the snake could use to its advantage.

[Neofytos]

(Original post by gateshipone)
Using a talking snake to back up your claims isn't going to work. You know they're incapable of speech right?

I honestly don't think it's a stupid thing to say. Why would a loving God allow for innocents to suffer? If you believe it's because of Adam & Eve, what kind of God would punish an entire species for all time because of a woman who ate some fruit? Seems like an absolutely horrific thing to do.

Also, since you brought it up, why the hell did God put the apple tree there in the first place?! Seems like a dumb move to put one single tempting thing on the whole planet that the snake could use to its advantage.

Answering to ur last question, well obviously its a "story" to show how not loyal the human is, and that if we want to go to heaven we must change.

What do u mean allow? I just said the man is responsible for these happenings. God is just lets say watching.

[gateshipone]

(Original post by Neofytos)
Answering to ur last question, well obviously its a "story" to show how not loyal the human is, and that if we want to go to heaven we must change.

What do u mean allow? I just said the man is responsible for these happenings. God is just lets say watching.

Why create us that way then? If he knew we had the capability to be unloyal as you put it, why bother with the tree? If he hadn't have put that there then humans wouldn't have been tempted in the first place. No matter how you look at that story, God made some massive mistakes and instead of fessing up and fixing his mistakes, he punishes our species until the end of time. That is not a God who deserves to be worshipped.

[Neofytos]

(Original post by gateshipone)
Why create us that way then? If he knew we had the capability to be unloyal as you put it, why bother with the tree? If he hadn't have put that there then humans wouldn't have been tempted in the first place. No matter how you look at that story, God made some massive mistakes and instead of fessing up and fixing his mistakes, he punishes our species until the end of time. That is not a God who deserves to be worshipped.

Well this is my lets sat concluSion. What happened with eve and adam showed that humans are unpredictable and different and they are easily affected. We can say that eve made adam eat too. Thats why he decided to send us in the earth to separate the "good" and strong characters with the 'bad'

[Bey Taco]

(Original post by gateshipone)
I think you're not quite understanding the argument. If God exists then he's responsible for good and bad. If God doesn't exist then humans are responsible for good and bad. It's that simple.

The argument is that if there is a God then he can't be all knowing, powerful AND caring due to the amount of suffering we see in the world. If he were all knowing and powerful then he's wilfully allowing people to suffer unnecessarily.

As for your smoking analogy, why would God create any form of cancer in the first place? It ONLY causes suffering, nothing good comes from it so why bother spending time creating it in the first place?

I am not arguing in favour of anyone but I have said this to umm and I will say it to you, this argument is illogical because you are simply saying God cannot exist because if he did there would be no suffering. You are simply applying the characteristics we as humans give to a figure god. We may have a creater which created us and just went, 'I am bored with humans, onto something new, I will let them get on with it', or infact a god which enjoys human suffering, you may then decide, hang on therefore God is evil but this does not imply that god does not exist, can god not be mean or even uncaring at all? Maybe our feeling of pain is such that the feeling of fear when watching a movie? Maybe unnecessary suffering is just unnecessary suffering that is all, it is a emotion, something chemical. I personally think that argument which everyone keeps putting forward in favour of athiesm is very weak.

[Neofytos]

And btw i dont believe atheist will go to hell or something. That is just stupid. All people will be criticized of how we lived what choices we made and how much we offered to this world and other people NOT to God.

[Neofytos]

And guys i just asked your opinion about a picture, u could comment not nessecarily neg me for posting a pic. From +30 i went to -16 in one post lol. Oh well freedom of speech they tell u ,p

[gateshipone]

(Original post by Bey Taco)
I am not arguing in favour of anyone but I have said this to umm and I will say it to you, this argument is illogical because you are simply saying God cannot exist because if he did there would be no suffering.

That's not the sole reasoning behind my argument, just one part of it. I'm an atheist for many reasons, one reason being I do not believe that there is a loving God out there. I'm only saying the things I am in this thread as they are specifically what have some up, I've not posted all my reasons. If you really think this is what I'm basing all my argument for the non-existence of God then you simply do not have all the information. I would argue the same is true for ummm. There's more to our atheism than one single argument.

You are simply applying the characteristics we as humans give to a figure god. We may have a creater which created us and just went, 'I am bored with humans, onto something new, I will let them get on with it', or infact a god which enjoys human suffering, you may then decide, hang on therefore God is evil but this does not imply that god does not exist, can god not be mean or even uncaring at all?

Again, that's not my only reasoning for not believing in a God. However, if God does exist and he is mean and uncaring, then why should I try and please him or worship him? Surely only those who deserve our praise should get it?

[callum9999]

(Original post by Neofytos)
And btw i dont believe atheist will go to hell or something. That is just stupid. All people will be criticized of how we lived what choices we made and how much we offered to this world and other people NOT to God.

Makes the whole religion thing rather pointless then. Why bother worshipping if it makes no difference (unless you're Catholic of course, and believe that saying sorry to God absolves you of any responsibility for living a bad life...).

[Neofytos]

(Original post by callum9999)
Makes the whole religion thing rather pointless then. Why bother worshipping if it makes no difference (unless you're Catholic of course, and believe that saying sorry to God absolves you of any responsibility for living a bad life...).

I am ChrIstian not catholic or prostant i dont know the word in english. 1st) yes i believe that if someone choose not to believe or pray on a god its his right. The only thing he loses is the feeling of fulliness when u have god by ur side.
2nd) i believe that saying really sorry to god will absolve ur sins

[Bey Taco]

(Original post by gateshipone)
That's not the sole reasoning behind my argument, just one part of it. I'm an atheist for many reasons, one reason being I do not believe that there is a loving God out there. I'm only saying the things I am in this thread as they are specifically what have some up, I've not posted all my reasons. If you really think this is what I'm basing all my argument for the non-existence of God then you simply do not have all the information. I would argue the same is true for ummm. There's more to our atheism than one single argument.


Again, that's not my only reasoning for not believing in a God. However, if God does exist and he is mean and uncaring, then why should I try and please him or worship him? Surely only those who deserve our praise should get it?

You say you are a athiest because you don't think there is a loving God, the true definition of athiest is believing that God doesnt exist at all! Be it he is good or not. What you are saying is, if everyone in this world led great lifestyles and was truelly happy then yes, I would believe in God.

definition of God: (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) The creator and ruler of the universe

I have not said I have all the information however I have evaluated your previous reason and have expressed my views on the argument. You have other reasons, then great for you.

????
I will simplify this for you. Worshipping are in religions and up to a person. We are talking about the existance of God himself and believing in a deity does not equate you like this deity or you think highly of him enough for him to deserve your prayer or love, however that you think he might have played a role in creation.

[Sir Digby Chicken]

(Original post by Bey Taco)
I am not arguing in favour of anyone but I have said this to umm and I will say it to you, this argument is illogical because you are simply saying God cannot exist because if he did there would be no suffering. You are simply applying the characteristics we as humans give to a figure god. We may have a creater which created us and just went, 'I am bored with humans, onto something new, I will let them get on with it', or infact a god which enjoys human suffering, you may then decide, hang on therefore God is evil but this does not imply that god does not exist, can god not be mean or even uncaring at all? Maybe our feeling of pain is such that the feeling of fear when watching a movie? Maybe unnecessary suffering is just unnecessary suffering that is all, it is a emotion, something chemical. I personally think that argument which everyone keeps putting forward in favour of athiesm is very weak.

The very basic argument for atheism is without proof there's no need to believe. You cannot disprove god, and rightly most atheists would not say there is no god, however there is no valid reason to believe in god other than an assumption either based on religious text or ones own personal beliefs. At the end of the day religion and belief in god surrounds 'faith' which is the idea to believe something to be true without substantial proof. Quite frankly for those that believe in god this should be a good enough argument for their beliefs however you cannot expect everyone to adhere to this rational.

[Bey Taco]

(Original post by Sir Digby Chicken)
The very basic argument for atheism is without proof there's no need to believe. You cannot disprove god, and rightly most atheists would not say there is no god, however there is no valid reason to believe in god other than an assumption either based on religious text or ones own personal beliefs. At the end of the day religion and belief in god surrounds 'faith' which is the idea to believe something to be true without substantial proof. Quite frankly for those that believe in god this should be a good enough argument for their beliefs however you cannot expect everyone to adhere to this rational.

I have enjoyed reading that, thanks. The bolded makes a very good argument.

[callum9999]

(Original post by Bey Taco)
You say you are a athiest because you don't think there is a loving God, the true definition of athiest is believing that God doesnt exist at all! Be it he is good or not. What you are saying is, if everyone in this world led great lifestyles and was truelly happy then yes, I would believe in God.

definition of God: (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) The creator and ruler of the universe

I have not said I have all the information however I have evaluated your previous reason and have expressed my views on the argument. You have other reasons, then great for you.

????
I will simplify this for you. Worshipping are in religions and up to a person. We are talking about the existance of God himself and believing in a deity does not equate you like this deity or you think highly of him enough for him to deserve your prayer or love, however that you think he might have played a role in creation.

I don't know if it's the point they are making, but God is promoted as unwaveringly good, yet there is INCREDIBLE evil on an ENORMOUSLY flawed planet. Before I was old enough to evaluate evidence etc. - that was precisely the thing that put me off believing in religion. Observing the evil in the world, I could not accept it was made/run by a loving creator.

[Hype en Ecosse]

(Original post by squishy123)
You'll have to elaborate.....

You said that God couldn't increase the size of the planet to accommodate a booming population because "How would scientists explain it?".

If God can only do things science can explain, he isn't a very good deity, now is he? In fact, you might even say he doesn't exist at all and instead, it's all just nature following the rules of the universe...

[gateshipone]

(Original post by Bey Taco)
You say you are a athiest because you don't think there is a loving God, the true definition of athiest is believing that God doesnt exist at all! Be it he is good or not. What you are saying is, if everyone in this world led great lifestyles and was truelly happy then yes, I would believe in God.

No I say part of the reason I'm an atheist is because I don't think if there were a God, he'd be worthy of worship due to his lack of concern about humans who are supposedly his children. That's not the only reason though, but you seem to be ignoring that I've said that multiple times to boost your own idea of what I believe. Trust me, there's much more to it than that.

I will simplify this for you. Worshipping are in religions and up to a person. We are talking about the existance of God himself and believing in a deity does not equate you like this deity or you think highly of him enough for him to deserve your prayer or love, however that you think he might have played a role in creation.

I've been discussing this as it came up during the conversation. Let me simplify it for you. I don't see any evidence that a God created us, the Earth or the Universe. There's nothing in nature that we've discovered that suggests a higher power had a hand in creation - that is another reason I'm an atheist.

I find it fascinating that you seem to think you can tell me what I do and do not believe. It's quite impressive that you think you have the ability to do so based on not understanding all my thoughts on this subject. I mean, good try, but you got it totally wrong. You made the same mistake a lot of people with your beliefs do in this type of conversation, you focus in on one thing someone says and then dissect that instead of asking questions to broaden your understanding of atheists beliefs and then discuss them as a whole.

(Original post by callum9999)
I don't know if it's the point they are making, but God is promoted as unwaveringly good, yet there is INCREDIBLE evil on an ENORMOUSLY flawed planet. Before I was old enough to evaluate evidence etc. - that was precisely the thing that put me off believing in religion. Observing the evil in the world, I could not accept it was made/run by a loving creator.

You're exactly right, that's not the point I was making. I'd hazard a guess that as you developed and grew up your reasons for not believing broadened to include many other reasons.