Results are out! Find what you need...fast. Get quick advice or join the chat
Hey there! Sign in to have your say on this topicNew here? Join for free to post

Vet dares to criticise Islam and Judaism

Announcements Posted on
Become part of the Welcome Squad! Apply here! 28-10-2014
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    I'm 1/4 Jewish, but we're not in Israel (or Saudi Arabia). It's also cruel.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by justmyopinions)
    I'm 1/4 Jewish, but we're not in Israel (or Saudi Arabia). It's also cruel.
    How can you be 1/4 Jewish? Does this mean you only follow 1/4 of the religion? How do you decide which bits to follow?

    I suspect you mean that one of grandparents is/was Jewish. One of my grandparents was a pilot, does that make me 1/4 pilot?
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    Regardless there is some form of biasness everywhere. I also do not see how other people care so much about how one follows their faith, it dictates how they should live and isolates them which is totally wrong.
    People don't unless it negatively affects the welfare of other humans and animals.

    It's the same with religious slaughter.......as long as it's done correctly, the animal is dies 'humanely'. The reason behind the evidence, is that more people are concerned with proving it's right rather than looking on the other spectrum as well.
    I would strongly contest that. Cattle effectively have a parallel blood supply to the brain through the vertebral arteries which are not severed during religious slaughter. In conjunction with this a "false aneurysm" can form on the ends of the carotids preserving blood supply to the brain, consciousness and pain sensation for up to several minutes. On the other hand a stunned animal is going to be unconscious regardless of how well they bleed out.

    The study you referenced in another thread it is the only one of its kind supporting religious slaughter. Despite being over thirty years old nobody has been able to replicate its findings, quite the opposite in fact. It is referred to as "The Halal Study" because aside from that there is little or no supporting evidence.

    Also Islamicly the animal is looked after humanely throughout it's life in comparison to non-halal meat where animals come from a mixture of backgrounds which in many cases live in inhumane conditions and treated badly, which people choose to ignore but are more concerned about it dying humanely.
    Where is your evidence?

    You cannot claim that all animals destined for Halal slaughter are raised under a good welfare standard (without evidence) and in the same vigor claim that all other animals are raised with a poor standard of welfare (without evidence). Frankly it is nonsense and whoever told you that is very much mistaken.

    Animals raised for Halal slaughter are equally as likely to have welfare issues as conventionally reared animals.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by James82)
    How can you be 1/4 Jewish? Does this mean you only follow 1/4 of the religion? How do you decide which bits to follow?

    I suspect you mean that one of grandparents is/was Jewish. One of my grandparents was a pilot, does that make me 1/4 pilot?
    Well, almost every Jew can trace their ancestry back to Israel, and I see Judaism as being both a religion and culture. I also view Jews as being an ethnic group. Even though I'm not religiously Jewish, I am culturally to some extent (as my grandma was a Jew, so is my dad, but he's an athiest so there hasn't been religious aspects of Judaism in my home). Also, it's like being 1/4 Italian, I'm 1/4 Jewish.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    I find it funny that people have a problem with the method of slaughter, yet have no problem with eating the animal.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by badcheesecrispy)
    Makes me sick that these bigots are allowed to hurt and unnecessary torture animals for their own immoral beliefs.
    Are you a vegetarian?
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    The conventional methods sound just as bad ... electrocution which causes brain damage or concussion... electric currents applied to animals heads, sticking bolts through their head and suffocation by carbon dioxide :eek:
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by justmyopinions)
    Well, almost every Jew can trace their ancestry back to Israel, and I see Judaism as being both a religion and culture. I also view Jews as being an ethnic group. Even though I'm not religiously Jewish, I am culturally to some extent (as my grandma was a Jew, so is my dad, but he's an athiest so there hasn't been religious aspects of Judaism in my home). Also, it's like being 1/4 Italian, I'm 1/4 Jewish.
    I doubt many jews in this country can trace their ancestry back to Israel, most of them arrived from europe. Your dad is an atheist Jew, that's a new one on me, but each to their own I guess. Of course judaism isn't an ethnicity, are Asian jews, African jews, European jews, etc. all the same ethnicity?

    Being 1/4 Israeli is like being 1/4 Italian, but I don't know how anyone can identify as 1/4 jewish, what's the other 3/4 of you? Buddhist? Islamic?
    • 29 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    Lol..

    "Leading vet". I do like how every industry source is either an 'expert' or a 'leading [insert job title]'.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by James82)
    I doubt many jews in this country can trace their ancestry back to Israel, most of them arrived from europe. Your dad is an atheist Jew, that's a new one on me, but each to their own I guess. Of course judaism isn't an ethnicity, are Asian jews, African jews, European jews, etc. all the same ethnicity?

    Being 1/4 Israeli is like being 1/4 Italian, but I don't know how anyone can identify as 1/4 jewish, what's the other 3/4 of you? Buddhist? Islamic?
    No, of course not. But ethnicity is different from race. Erm, example would be the difference between Spaniards and Italians. They're both mediterranean people but they have variations in their genes, and also culture. See how that works? Judaism has religious and cultural factors.
    And most Jews arrived in Europe hundreds to thousands of years ago came from the Israel area.

    This will help to explain better:
    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Ethnicity_vs_Race
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by justmyopinions)
    No, of course not. But ethnicity is different from race. Erm, example would be the difference between Spaniards and Italians. They're both mediterranean people but they have variations in their genes, and also culture. See how that works? Judaism has religious and cultural factors.
    And most Jews arrived in Europe hundreds to thousands of years ago came from the Israel area.

    This will help to explain better:
    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Ethnicity_vs_Race
    I am well aware of the differences, but you assume I am not because you see Judaism as an ethnicity, whereas it clearly isn't. I didn't even mention race. You can not claim that a group of African jews (regardless of their race), with there own distinct culture who have decided to follow the jewish faith share the same ethnicity as a group of European jews (again, regardless of their race) with their own distinct culture. If they ever met then one of the only things they would have in common would be their shared belief in a certain religion, they certainly wouldn't have many, if any, ethnic similarities.

    It's the same for all religions, you can't just say all christians or all muslims have the same ethnicity, because there is a massive spectrum of cultural, language, ancestral, etc. differences.
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    There seems to be a number of studies showing the Halal and Kosher methods of slaughter cause unnecessary distress and suffering to the animals. Since morality should be prioritised over religious rituals in this country, I agree with the Vet that it should be banned. I am a vegetarian.

    (Original post by James82)
    I doubt many jews in this country can trace their ancestry back to Israel, most of them arrived from europe. Your dad is an atheist Jew, that's a new one on me, but each to their own I guess. Of course judaism isn't an ethnicity, are Asian jews, African jews, European jews, etc. all the same ethnicity?

    Being 1/4 Israeli is like being 1/4 Italian, but I don't know how anyone can identify as 1/4 jewish, what's the other 3/4 of you? Buddhist? Islamic?
    Some consider being Jewish an ethnicity, as well as a religion. Most of the Jews in Europe will be Ashkenazi Jews, and it is true, we are a genetically homogeneous group.

    Jewish atheists are common, in fact I could probably name more 'Jews' who don't believe in God than those who do. You might find the term contradictory but to me, it just means someone who comes from a Jewish background but does not believe in God.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by James82)
    I am well aware of the differences, but you assume I am not because you see Judaism as an ethnicity, whereas it clearly isn't. I didn't even mention race. You can not claim that a group of African jews (regardless of their race), with there own distinct culture who have decided to follow the jewish faith share the same ethnicity as a group of European jews (again, regardless of their race) with their own distinct culture. If they ever met then one of the only things they would have in common would be their shared belief in a certain religion, they certainly wouldn't have many, if any, ethnic similarities.

    It's the same for all religions, you can't just say all christians or all muslims have the same ethnicity, because there is a massive spectrum of cultural, language, ancestral, etc. differences.
    Judaism itself isnt a race, because it's not a physical thing. Jews are. Although you do get African Jews, most of whome are Ethiopian, but they have, as you said, chosen to follow the religion and practices of Judaism. However, the majority of Jews do share a similar ancestory which is clearly defined in their genetic makeup. And actually, the majority of Ethiopinian Jews live in Israel and have a very similar culture compared to other Israelis.

    And your point referring to other religions is correct. However, the Jewish people are different as they have experienced extremely low levels of intergration from the time they arrived in Europe from Israel until fairly recently. Due to this, most Jews in Europe could be fairly certain that they ancestors did come from Israel, no matter how long ago, as only a limited number of non-Jews converted and were absorbed into the community.

    The only way to prove you wrong is if I were to have my genetic makeup examined. It would prove that I have the genetic traits associated with the Hebrew people who came from Israel.

    I'm not responding again cause this is extremely boring
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by quavers)
    Are you a vegetarian?
    yes
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by justmyopinions)
    Judaism itself isnt a race, because it's not a physical thing. Jews are. Although you do get African Jews, most of whome are Ethiopian, but they have, as you said, chosen to follow the religion and practices of Judaism. However, the majority of Jews do share a similar ancestory which is clearly defined in their genetic makeup. And actually, the majority of Ethiopinian Jews live in Israel and have a very similar culture compared to other Israelis.

    And your point referring to other religions is correct. However, the Jewish people are different as they have experienced extremely low levels of intergration from the time they arrived in Europe from Israel until fairly recently. Due to this, most Jews in Europe could be fairly certain that they ancestors did come from Israel, no matter how long ago, as only a limited number of non-Jews converted and were absorbed into the community.

    The only way to prove you wrong is if I were to have my genetic makeup examined. It would prove that I have the genetic traits associated with the Hebrew people who came from Israel.

    I'm not responding again cause this is extremely boring
    But we know that simply isn't true, the jews who lived in Israel 2,000 years ago were mostly of Arab decent, 2,000 years of European integration has drastically changed their genetic makeup. So 2,000 years ago they weren't a distinct ethnicity because they shared much of their culture with other Arabs, nowadays many of the jews in Israel have a mixture of European and Arab genes.

    Judaism is simply a religion like any other, it's not a race or an ethnicity.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
    Lol..

    "Leading vet". I do like how every industry source is either an 'expert' or a 'leading [insert job title]'.
    Bill Reilly Biography:

    www.epolitix.com/fileadmin/epolitix/stakeholders/Bill_Reilly_biography.doc
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by James82)
    But we know that simply isn't true, the jews who lived in Israel 2,000 years ago were mostly of Arab decent, 2,000 years of European integration has drastically changed their genetic makeup. So 2,000 years ago they weren't a distinct ethnicity because they shared much of their culture with other Arabs, nowadays many of the jews in Israel have a mixture of European and Arab genes.

    Judaism is simply a religion like any other, it's not a race or an ethnicity.
    Erm, actually in many countries it was illegal for non Jews to marry Jews and for Jews to live in ghettos for around 700 years, so integration was a minimum.
    However, obviously integration had occurred but the fact is that there are still Jewish genetic traits which can be found in the majority of Jews today's, although the traits are not as profound as two thousand years ago. An by the way the Jewish and Arab cultures were very much different back then, with the Hebrews having similar culture as today. Jews were found to live in certain areas and kept communities close together.
    Conclusion: today, there are still distinct Jewish traits which can be found in much of the Jewish population, and which has incorporated many genetic traits from the areas settled after emigration from Israel.
    • 29 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    I wasn't actually questioning his credentials, nor was I saying that he wasn't in all actuality, a 'leading veterinarian'. Just that when it comes down to it, it's a bit of an arbitrary title used to provide a bit more 'oomph' to an article that would otherwise be 'Experienced Vet with lots of degrees has opinion'.
    • 48 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ch0c0h01ic)
    People don't unless it negatively affects the welfare of other humans and animals.

    When does how someone live their personal life affect others, some would see it as wrong to interfere in others lives in what they want to eat. Especially if they dispute the effects being negative

    I would strongly contest that. Cattle effectively have a parallel blood supply to the brain through the vertebral arteries which are not severed during religious slaughter. In conjunction with this a "false aneurysm" can form on the ends of the carotids preserving blood supply to the brain, consciousness and pain sensation for up to several minutes. On the other hand a stunned animal is going to be unconscious regardless of how well they bleed out.

    The study you referenced in another thread it is the only one of its kind supporting religious slaughter. Despite being over thirty years old nobody has been able to replicate its findings, quite the opposite in fact. It is referred to as "The Halal Study" because aside from that there is little or no supporting evidence.

    Well technically the study still stands because it is a scientific study which was carried out, even though it may be 30 years old, it stands better than the ones provided because they are associated with organisations which provided biased evidence.

    Where is your evidence?

    You cannot claim that all animals destined for Halal slaughter are raised under a good welfare standard (without evidence) and in the same vigor claim that all other animals are raised with a poor standard of welfare (without evidence). Frankly it is nonsense and whoever told you that is very much mistaken.


    Firstly if you read my post, you would find I said that inhumane farms still existed like caged ones where meat from varying backgrounds so the consumer wouldn't know, no where did I say they all were of poor standard :rolleyes:.
    Islamically have to be raised under good welfare standard regardless as it's a requirement in the Muslim's faith.


    Animals raised for Halal slaughter are equally as likely to have welfare issues as conventionally reared animals.
    They really aren't especially if they are run by proper Muslims under guidance of scholars...otherwise they wouldn't be halal.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    When does how someone live their personal life affect others, some would see it as wrong to interfere in others lives in what they want to eat. Especially if they dispute the effects being negative
    Tradition or religion is not justification for archaic practices which negatively affect the welfare of animals.

    Well technically the study still stands because it is a scientific study which was carried out, even though it may be 30 years old, it stands better than the ones provided because they are associated with organisations which provided biased evidence.
    You are not proposing a rational argument.

    The study only "stands" because you agree with it's findings. You conveniently ignore the fact that it is outdated and people have not been able to replicate its results. You cannot simply dismiss all other conflicting studies when there are significantly more of them, more recent and better conducted. Despite knowing nothing about who conducted these studies or the validity of their findings you ignorantly claim that they are "biased" simply because they do not agree with you own preconceived beliefs.

    Firstly if you read my post, you would find I said that inhumane farms still existed like caged ones where meat from varying backgrounds so the consumer wouldn't know, no where did I say they all were of poor standard :rolleyes:.
    Islamically have to be raised under good welfare standard regardless as it's a requirement in the Muslim's faith.

    They really aren't especially if they are run by proper Muslims under guidance of scholars...otherwise they wouldn't be halal.
    To quote what you said earlier:

    "...animals come from a mixture of backgrounds which in many cases live in inhumane conditions and treated badly,..."

    Again, baseless generalisations in an attempt to deride evidence that challenges your own beliefs.

Reply

Submit reply

Register

Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post
  1. this can't be left blank
    that username has been taken, please choose another Forgotten your password?
  2. this can't be left blank
    this email is already registered. Forgotten your password?
  3. this can't be left blank

    6 characters or longer with both numbers and letters is safer

  4. this can't be left empty
    your full birthday is required
  1. By joining you agree to our Ts and Cs, privacy policy and site rules

  2. Slide to join now Processing…

Updated: June 11, 2012
New on TSR

Halloween 2014

Join the TSR Halloween party...if you dare!

Article updates
Useful resources
Reputation gems:
You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.