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Christians, what do you think of this image?

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    ..
    Fast forward to the giving of the Law, these laws that are mentioned are simply a way for governing man's own hard heart. God didn't want slavery, but men wanted it. So God issued a way for slavery to be done, without the harming of men and women. If God simply said "There will be no slavery", Israel would have just rebelled. Of course they rebelled anyway.
    That's not really a strong argument, tbh. Don't you think if God wanted to condemn and forbid something he would, no matter what humans thought? E.g. forbidding homosexuality

    (Original post by Okashira)
    As for Paul's comments about women teaching men, it was probably stated this way to cut out the chance of seduction and temptations of that nature. He never said women shouldn't teach other women or children. Only that it would be better if women didn't teach men. For instance, let's say a man began teaching the wrong thing in the church. It would be easier for other men who know the truth, to stand up to the one who's teaching the wrong thing. Yet let's say a beautiful woman was teaching the wrong thing. It would be harder for the men to stand up to her. Paul wanted to cut that down.
    Those aren't the only quotes regarding women though.

    1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35*
    34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


    Leviticus 12:2 *

    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
    Leviticus 12:5
    ..
    5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
    (Seven days for a boy but 2 weeks for a girl?)

    1 Peter 3:1
    1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands

    There's a lot more to do with women, so how would you excuse these?
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    (Original post by Baddream)
    I came across this on Twitter and even though the point of it is to ridicule the EDL, I just wanted to know what Christians thought of the quotes from the Bible.

    Attachment 145903

    These are the quotes:
    Exodus 21:7-11
    "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. "

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=92007

    John 15:6
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

    Aha! I can't find one for this!

    1 Timothy 2:11-12
    11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=418135 so basically he was on about women priests.

    Exodus 21:1-6
    2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. 3 If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. 5 But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=92007

    Btw, I didn't start this thread for a religious debate. I genuinely just want to know what Christians make of this.
    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Out of interest, what do you make of this quote from Jesus:

    Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Which "Law" and "commands" is he talking about, that everyone has to follow?
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=226015 (this one seems to be the same poster as in the last thread)
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    OP, how many Christians do you see today burning non-believers? The bible specifically forbids murder, so stop posting crap like this which is obviously false.

    Also, the verses there are not commandments from God or Jesus. For example, in John 15:6...Jesus hasn't commanded Christians to go throw unbelievers into fire...how often do you see that happening?

    It's not a commandment...it's a metaphor representing hell (should've though this one pretty obvious).
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    (Original post by rac1)
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=226015 (this one seems to be the same poster as in the last thread)
    The point which seems to be made is that the OT Laws are not being gotten rid of. In fact, quite the opposite. They're being made more strict than they were before. For example now, not only is adultery prohibited, even simply lusting is prohibited.

    This doesn't really explain why a Christian can look at some OT Law and say "I don't have to follow that, it's in the OT, Jesus didn't say it". If Jesus "fulfilled" that particular law, it certainly doesn't mean that he got rid of it. He fulfills it, he completes it, he makes it more strict. You could say, he fills it until it is full. So then Jesus "fulfilling" a law doesn't then just become grounds to ignore it. If you believe that Jesus changed a particular law, it still needs to be established - what exactly did he change it into?
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    (Original post by Baddream)
    That's not really a strong argument, tbh. Don't you think if God wanted to condemn and forbid something he would, no matter what humans thought? E.g. forbidding homosexuality

    There was nothing wrong with having servants. As you can see how the people of Israel were told to deal with their own brethren, they weren't treated harshly and they were set free after a while. Now if they bought slaves from other groups around them, they still were on the side of not treating them harshly. To the point that if they killed one of their slaves, they would face the punishment of death themselves.


    So it wasn't slavery, like the kind of slavery that went on between Europe, America, and Africa. God did condemn that kind of slavery.

    (Original post by Baddream)
    1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35*
    34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
    This is apart of Paul speaking on having order in the church. That when the church is going on, women shouldn't have conversation or address the crowd. (For instance, giving some kind of announcement or things of that nature) When you look at church today, no one speaks while the preacher or teacher is talking. Yet all of what Paul was talking on, is the order of church meetings. Men play a role, women play a role, and children play a role. We all can't have the same role and there still be order in the church.

    Of course when you read the book of Acts, there are plenty of women who are teaching, and played vital roles in the Church. (The Body of Christ) So Paul is not saying that men are better than women. If you are looking at Christianity as a whole, the first witnesses of Christ's ressurection were women. (The men were hiding cowardly from anyone wanting to put them to death) Jesus defended the woman adulterer, and he freed prostitutes from their bondage. This is a day and age where women weren't seen as full people. Why don't you ever mention those things hmmmm?

    (Original post by Baddream)
    Leviticus 12:2 *

    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
    Leviticus 12:5
    ..
    5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
    (Seven days for a boy but 2 weeks for a girl?)
    Here's one perspective. You see, Eve was first deceived by the snake, and gave fruit from the tree they weren't suppose to eat from, to her husband. And it's because of this, that the curse for man ruling over women, came in. It definitely has something to do with that.

    (Original post by Baddream)
    1 Peter 3:1
    1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands
    What picture are you getting from these words? Submissive, subjection, and so on? Are you getting the picture that the husband can do whatever he wants to his wife? That if he wanted to harm her, she would just have to take it?

    No, that is not what is being said by those words. What it means is to respect her husband, and see him as the head of the household. The husbands are to respect their wives, listen to them, die for them. Going back to the word submissive, Jesus is submissive to the Father. The Holy Spirit is submissive to the Father. Does that make Jesus less than, or the Holy Spirit less than the Father? No, they are equally God. Yet, they play different roles. It's the role of the Father to be leader, just like it is the husband to be the leader of the family. (Marriage is a kind of representation of the God head) Ultimately, those words don't mean what you think.
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    Just a question for you...how many of these quotes where from the mouth of Jesus?? Men can often mis-interperete what God meant to say and translation errors through-out the years mean that often the original artefacts in greek say something completely different...such as the many words for love and gender that are repeatedly mistranslated into the english 'equivelent'.
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    (Original post by Baddream)
    I came across this on Twitter and even though the point of it is to ridicule the EDL, I just wanted to know what Christians thought of the quotes from the Bible.
    Hello Baddream,

    Ok, and thanks for your kind way in asking. Much appreciated.

    Attachment 145903

    These are the quotes:
    Exodus 21:7-11
    "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. "
    Exodus 21 is part of the Law that God sent specifically to the children of Israel, the descendants of Abraham's son Isaac's son Jacob's descendants, through Moses.

    Exodus 21 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...21&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    "א וְאֵלֶּה, הַמִּשְׁפָּטִים, אֲשֶׁר תָּשִׂים, לִפְנֵיהֶם. 1 Now these are the ordinances which thou shalt set before them.
    ב כִּי תִקְנֶה עֶבֶד עִבְרִי, שֵׁשׁ שָׁנִים יַעֲבֹד; וּבַשְּׁבִעִת--יֵצֵא לַחָפְשִׁי, חִנָּם. 2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve; and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
    ג אִם-בְּגַפּוֹ יָבֹא, בְּגַפּוֹ יֵצֵא; אִם-בַּעַל אִשָּׁה הוּא, וְיָצְאָה אִשְׁתּוֹ עִמּוֹ. 3 If he come in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he be married, then his wife shall go out with him.
    ד אִם-אֲדֹנָיו יִתֶּן-לוֹ אִשָּׁה, וְיָלְדָה-לוֹ בָנִים אוֹ בָנוֹת--הָאִשָּׁה וִילָדֶיהָ, תִּהְיֶה לַאדֹנֶיהָ, וְהוּא, יֵצֵא בְגַפּוֹ. 4 If his master give him a wife, and she bear him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
    ה וְאִם-אָמֹר יֹאמַר, הָעֶבֶד, אָהַבְתִּי אֶת-אֲדֹנִי, אֶת-אִשְׁתִּי וְאֶת-בָּנָי; לֹא אֵצֵא, חָפְשִׁי. 5 But if the servant shall plainly say: I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free;
    ו וְהִגִּישׁוֹ אֲדֹנָיו, אֶל-הָאֱלֹהִים, וְהִגִּישׁוֹ אֶל-הַדֶּלֶת, אוֹ אֶל-הַמְּזוּזָה; וְרָצַע אֲדֹנָיו אֶת-אָזְנוֹ בַּמַּרְצֵעַ, וַעֲבָדוֹ לְעֹלָם. {ס} 6 then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. {S}
    ז וְכִי-יִמְכֹּר אִישׁ אֶת-בִּתּוֹ, לְאָמָה--לֹא תֵצֵא, כְּצֵאת הָעֲבָדִים. 7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maid-servant, she shall not go out as the men-servants do.
    ח אִם-רָעָה בְּעֵינֵי אֲדֹנֶיהָ, אֲשֶׁר-לא (לוֹ) יְעָדָהּ--וְהֶפְדָּהּ: לְעַם נָכְרִי לֹא-יִמְשֹׁל לְמָכְרָהּ, בְּבִגְדוֹ-בָהּ. 8 If she please not her master, who hath espoused her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed; to sell her unto a foreign people he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
    ט וְאִם-לִבְנוֹ, יִיעָדֶנָּה--כְּמִשְׁפַּט הַבָּנוֹת, יַעֲשֶׂה-לָּהּ. 9 And if he espouse her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
    י אִם-אַחֶרֶת, יִקַּח-לוֹ--שְׁאֵרָהּ כְּסוּתָהּ וְעֹנָתָהּ, לֹא יִגְרָע. 10 If he take him another wife, her food, her raiment, and her conjugal rights, shall he not diminish.
    יא וְאִם-שְׁלָשׁ-אֵלֶּה--לֹא יַעֲשֶׂה, לָהּ: וְיָצְאָה חִנָּם, אֵין כָּסֶף. {ס} 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out for nothing, without money. {S}
    יב מַכֵּה אִישׁ וָמֵת, מוֹת יוּמָת. 12 He that smiteth a man, so that he dieth, shall surely be put to death.

    יג וַאֲשֶׁר לֹא צָדָה, וְהָאֱלֹהִים אִנָּה לְיָדוֹ--וְשַׂמְתִּי לְךָ מָקוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יָנוּס שָׁמָּה. {ס} 13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God cause it to come to hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he may flee. {S}
    יד וְכִי-יָזִד אִישׁ עַל-רֵעֵהוּ, לְהָרְגוֹ בְעָרְמָה--מֵעִם מִזְבְּחִי, תִּקָּחֶנּוּ לָמוּת. {ס} 14 And if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from Mine altar, that he may die. {S}
    טו וּמַכֵּה אָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ, מוֹת יוּמָת. {ס} 15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. {S}
    טז וְגֹנֵב אִישׁ וּמְכָרוֹ וְנִמְצָא בְיָדוֹ, מוֹת יוּמָת. {ס} 16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. {S}
    יז וּמְקַלֵּל אָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ, מוֹת יוּמָת. {ס} 17 And he that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death. {S}

    יח וְכִי-יְרִיבֻן אֲנָשִׁים--וְהִכָּה-אִישׁ אֶת-רֵעֵהוּ, בְּאֶבֶן אוֹ בְאֶגְרֹף; וְלֹא יָמוּת, וְנָפַל לְמִשְׁכָּב. 18 And if men contend, and one smite the other with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keep his bed;
    יט אִם-יָקוּם וְהִתְהַלֵּךְ בַּחוּץ, עַל-מִשְׁעַנְתּוֹ--וְנִקָּה הַמַּכֶּה: רַק שִׁבְתּוֹ יִתֵּן, וְרַפֹּא יְרַפֵּא. {ס} 19 if he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed. {S}
    כ וְכִי-יַכֶּה אִישׁ אֶת-עַבְדּוֹ אוֹ אֶת-אֲמָתוֹ, בַּשֵּׁבֶט, וּמֵת, תַּחַת יָדוֹ--נָקֹם, יִנָּקֵם. 20 And if a man smite his bondman, or his bondwoman, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall surely be punished.
    כא אַךְ אִם-יוֹם אוֹ יוֹמַיִם, יַעֲמֹד--לֹא יֻקַּם, כִּי כַסְפּוֹ הוּא. {ס} 21 Notwithstanding if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his money. {S}
    כב וְכִי-יִנָּצוּ אֲנָשִׁים, וְנָגְפוּ אִשָּׁה הָרָה וְיָצְאוּ יְלָדֶיהָ, וְלֹא יִהְיֶה, אָסוֹן--עָנוֹשׁ יֵעָנֵשׁ, כַּאֲשֶׁר יָשִׁית עָלָיו בַּעַל הָאִשָּׁה, וְנָתַן, בִּפְלִלִים. 22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    כג וְאִם-אָסוֹן, יִהְיֶה--וְנָתַתָּה נֶפֶשׁ, תַּחַת נָפֶשׁ. 23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
    כד עַיִן תַּחַת עַיִן, שֵׁן תַּחַת שֵׁן, יָד תַּחַת יָד, רֶגֶל תַּחַת רָגֶל. 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
    כה כְּוִיָּה תַּחַת כְּוִיָּה, פֶּצַע תַּחַת פָּצַע, חַבּוּרָה, תַּחַת חַבּוּרָה. {ס} 25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. {S}
    כו וְכִי-יַכֶּה אִישׁ אֶת-עֵין עַבְדּוֹ, אוֹ-אֶת-עֵין אֲמָתוֹ--וְשִׁחֲתָהּ: לַחָפְשִׁי יְשַׁלְּחֶנּוּ, תַּחַת עֵינוֹ. 26 And if a man smite the eye of his bondman, or the eye of his bondwoman, and destroy it, he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
    כז וְאִם-שֵׁן עַבְדּוֹ אוֹ-שֵׁן אֲמָתוֹ, יַפִּיל--לַחָפְשִׁי יְשַׁלְּחֶנּוּ, תַּחַת שִׁנּוֹ. {פ} 27 And if he smite out his bondman's tooth, or his bondwoman's tooth, he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake. {P}"


    In the modern time we live in, it is hard to understand many of these laws and the very strict penalties. However, for Christians, Jesus' teachings help one understand a bit more the whys behind these laws. Jesus' teachings delve more profoundly, and Christians who obey Jesus' teachings do not inflict the severe penalties that God commanded the children of Israel under Moses to do to offenders. Christians believe that Jesus fulfills the law and the prophets, which is one reason why the strict penalties are not to be followed, since we believe Jesus suffered the penalty of sin once for all people.

    John 15:6
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    John 15 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...15&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    "15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

    9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit —fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.


    18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’[John 13:16] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’[Psalms 35:19; 69:4]


    26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father —the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. "


    In John 15:6, Jesus is using the analogy of him being the vine, and his followers being the branches, and was showing that one had to remain "in him" in order to produce fruit, whereas the branches that had fallen were used as firewood. One thing that is very important to understand concerning God is that God is above mortality, and thus doesn't see mortality as a horrible thing like people do. Because people do not live forever but are mortal, we tend to view death (when our spirits/souls leave our decaying bodies) as being bad, when actually it is just a metamorphoses. Jesus is teaching his followers that they need to continue in his teachings or they won't be productive.

    1 Timothy 2:11-12
    11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
    1 Timothy 2 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...02&version=NIV
    (I boldened some.)

    " I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying —and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

    8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

    11 A woman[Or wife; also in verse 12] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[Or over her husband] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[Greek she] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."


    In Paul's letter to Timothy, the first part makes sense to most Christians today, but the part about women confuses many Christians of today. What most Christians today who believe that the Bible is true understand is that the time and culture of the people are very important. Paul, a Jewish man, grew up with the Tanakh as the Scriptures and was very zealous for the Tanakh. Women at that time were not given the same roles as men, including in the home. Today, as a Christian lady, I personally do not have a problem with not being vocal and shouting out questions in church, or being a spiritual authority figure over men in the church! I understand and respect women pastors, though in my church, the women are not leaders of the whole congregation, but rather are leaders in the women's ministry and the children's ministry and the benevolence ministry and the community outreach ministry. I love going to women's Bible studies and interacting with the women there, and listening to the women leaders, one of them being the pastor's wife! So, the passage does not affect my faith negatively, but rather just emphasizes to me the importance in studying the history and culture of the time.

    Btw, I didn't start this thread for a religious debate. I genuinely just want to know what Christians make of this.
    Thanks for your kind and polite way of asking questions.

    Peace and God bless you
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Out of interest, what do you make of this quote from Jesus:

    Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Which "Law" and "commands" is he talking about, that everyone has to follow?
    Sorry I know it's a bit late but was just reading this...
    By laws and commands (paraphrase: Commandments), Jesus is refering to the 10 commandments in Exodus brought down from mount siani (can't spell) on the tablets of stone for the israilites. What he means is that those who only teach some of the commandments to others but leave some out or do not follow them themselves will not be looked upon greatly in heaven but those who teach them all and practices them all to the best of their ability will be sen as great.

    Hope that makes sense
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    (Original post by Charlie Chaplin)
    Sorry I know it's a bit late but was just reading this...
    By laws and commands (paraphrase: Commandments), Jesus is refering to the 10 commandments in Exodus brought down from mount siani (can't spell) on the tablets of stone for the israilites. What he means is that those who only teach some of the commandments to others but leave some out or do not follow them themselves will not be looked upon greatly in heaven but those who teach them all and practices them all to the best of their ability will be sen as great.

    Hope that makes sense
    Makes sense.
    But how do you know he's referring to just those 10 Commandments though, and isn't including all those other commandments also found in Jewish Law?
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    In general Jesus teachings are based around the 10 commandments as these are the most important, especially when it comes to Christianity when compared to Jedaism. Before Jesus came to earth, the 10 commandments were Jewish law...but these are the only laws (really, without being pernicity) that Jesus makes frequent reference to himself.
    There are many miscelenious (can't spell) laws in Exodous and Leviticus especially which don't fit the modern world (aka. those with goats and cows etc.) But some of the laws were not meant for the israilites, but for the pagans and non Jews. For example the law about not tatooing your skin...this was meant for the pagans as israilites actually tatooed their skin to show that they were different from the pagans. So the bible can be misread if you don't know what you're talking about and which passages are directed at which group of people...

    I'm not saying I'm an expert in it, no way...that's what bible college is for. I'd be facinated to learn about it all but I haven't got the time or money
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    The point which seems to be made is that the OT Laws are not being gotten rid of. In fact, quite the opposite. They're being made more strict than they were before. For example now, not only is adultery prohibited, even simply lusting is prohibited.

    This doesn't really explain why a Christian can look at some OT Law and say "I don't have to follow that, it's in the OT, Jesus didn't say it". If Jesus "fulfilled" that particular law, it certainly doesn't mean that he got rid of it. He fulfills it, he completes it, he makes it more strict. You could say, he fills it until it is full. So then Jesus "fulfilling" a law doesn't then just become grounds to ignore it. If you believe that Jesus changed a particular law, it still needs to be established - what exactly did he change it into?
    Lust without full knowledge or full consent isn't a mortal sin. You don't have to see it as being stricter more like the fullness of truth.

    For me I don't follow laws in the OT if they aren't natural law and/or Jesus didn't say we should carry on with them.
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    I wonder what does Ned Flanders think about this?
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    (Original post by rac1)
    For me I don't follow laws in the OT if they aren't natural law
    What do you mean, "natural law"?

    and/or Jesus didn't say we should carry on with them.
    Well that's the point - he says that he didn't abolish any of them, and that anyone who breaks the least of them is called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    He says he "fulfills" the laws. But whatever he means by that, he can't possibly mean "you may stop following them".
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    What do you mean, "natural law"?



    Well that's the point - he says that he didn't abolish any of them, and that anyone who breaks the least of them is called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    He says he "fulfills" the laws. But whatever he means by that, he can't possibly mean "you may stop following them".
    Natural Law

    Is there a natural law that everyone can know?


    I f people are to do good and avoid evil,certainty about what is good or evil must be inscribed within them. In fact there is such a moral law that is,so to speak, "natural" to men and can be known in principle by every person by reason. [1949-1960, 1975, 1978-1979]

    the natural moral law is valid for everyone. it tells men what fundamental rights and duties they have and thus forms the foundation for life together in the family, in society, and in the State. Because our natural knowledge is often troubled by sin and human weakness, a person needs God's help and his Revelation in order to stay on the right path.
    the above extract- (under the direction of) Archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal Schönborn, 2010. Youth Catechism of the Catholic Church. Translated from German by Michael J. Miller., 2011. London: Incorporated Catholic Truth Society

    Futher clarification- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6W.HTM no. 1968 seems to be the most applicable point here

    this might help too http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=325449

    here is where he says about fulfilling...
    http://bible.cc/matthew/5-17.htm
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    (Original post by sarahlabrosse)
    Also not a christian, but...
    Firstly, these are not 'Laws' these are quotes from the bible.

    Secondly, most modern scholars recignise that old testiment texts such as Exodus, are not meant to be taken literally - they have meaning beyond what is obvious, which may not come become clear through just these quotes - although, its easily recognisable all the way through, Liek the two creation storys in Genises?

    Finally, John, is thought to be the least historically accurate gospel, that has been edited and addapted by an evangelist to meet the needs of a community - a long tiome after Jesus died, until which point, any material was passed down via an oral tradition - we all know how a two minuite game of chinease whisperrs can reform a saying, so add that to the fact material is purposefully changed, and you baisically can be pretty certain that we can Dismiss Johns quote.
    Problems with your post.

    1) Cherry picking

    You say Exodus is not meant to be taken literally. For what reason, and why are other books also not taken literally if Exodus is?

    2) Your correct opinions on John

    John is not historically accurate. Nor is any book of the Bible. They were all written at least 30 years after the people were living - by that time I doubt they represent what actually happened in the ancient world. We can dismiss all Bible quotes and live on morality instead of "selfish charity."

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