[rac1]

(Original post by .eXe)
It depends how one defines salvation.

My definition of salvation is: "the ability to obtain the kingdom of heaven by accepting Jesus as a personal saviour"

I assure you, most "Christians" have this definition because as I and another poster stated earlier, it is the act of accepting Jesus which assures or solidifies the salvation. This is what is called "being saved"

Now when I argue that salvation is for all, and cannot be lost, I am saying that the offer of accepting Jesus as a personal saviour is open to all. It's not like only jews are allowed to accept it, or only those born in Christian homes can accept it. Anyone and everyone can accept that. Thus, anyone and everyone can receive salvation...you cannot lose something that has already been offered to you.

Salvation is like a gift...it is something that is offered. You cannot "lose" a gift...only thing you can do is "not accept it"

Thus, salvation cannot be lost. It can only be rejected. The offer of salvation is open to all, and always.

I don't understand how that 'most "Christians"' having that definition of salvation and your next point is a reason for believing in that definition of salvation.

Definitely agree that the offer of salvation is open to everyone, but still don't think that its not possible to lose, I'm sure I've lost plenty of gifts over my life (I can be quite forgetful).

(Original post by jmj)
Your first point- what about Bible verses that seem to suggest that once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation?

Your second point- being saved by faith alone doesn't mean that you can do what you like afterwards. The Bible writer James says that faith without works is dead- not that you have to do stuff in order to be saved, but that if you are saved a changed character will result. Jesus says in order to be saved you have to repent and believe- repent means to change, to turn back from your rebellion against God and turn to live for Jesus instead. Paul in the book of Romans strongly contradicts the idea that you can go on sinning deliberately after you have been saved- and the book of Hebrews says that to go on sinning deliberately after claiming to have accepted Christ is like cucifying Him all over again.

Your first point (lol)- I was looking at this article on wikipedia and I think there seem to be more passages 'against' sola fide than there are for (which isn't exactly how you should read the bible). also a lot of the ones that are for sola fide don't seem to explicitly state that: contrast this (for point) Romans 5 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." with this (against point) Matthew 16 "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."

Your second point- I guess I agree

Anyway I like the idea of invincible ignorance- whereby if you never really had the opportunity to find God and be saved then God wouldn't blame you for that and there would be a place for you in heaven if you had done your best morally speaking with what you had. Say if I was living in an unseen by the outside world tribe in the Amazon Basin and the nearest believer was miles away, I would get sent straight to hell when I died?

what about if you lived before Christ?... the time is 50BC: person 1: "Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?" person 2: "errrrr...who?

[jmj]

(Original post by rac1)
I don't understand how that 'most "Christians"' having that definition of salvation and your next point is a reason for believing in that definition of salvation.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your point here.

(Original post by rac1)
Definitely agree that the offer of salvation is open to everyone, but still don't think that its not possible to lose, I'm sure I've lost plenty of gifts over my life (I can be quite forgetful).

The Bible teaches it's not based on your memory, it's not based on anything you have done or can do, but based upon God's goodness to us through Jesus on the cross. This is how Paul puts it in Ephesians 1:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

Paul says here God chose us before the world even began and predestined us to be adopted as his sons because of his grace- and now He's got us, He will never let us go.

[QUOTE=rac1;37513489]Your first point (lol)- I was looking at this article on wikipedia and I think there seem to be more passages 'against' sola fide than there are for (which isn't exactly how you should read the bible). also a lot of the ones that are for sola fide don't seem to explicitly state that: contrast this (for point) Romans 5 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." with this (against point) Matthew 16 "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."

Your second point- I guess I agree

Anyway I like the idea of invincible ignorance- whereby if you never really had the opportunity to find God and be saved then God wouldn't blame you for that and there would be a place for you in heaven if you had done your best morally speaking with what you had. Say if I was living in an unseen by the outside world tribe in the Amazon Basin and the nearest believer was miles away, I would get sent straight to hell when I died?[QUOTE=rac1;37513489]

Well, the Bible says you can never be right with God by what we do- the only way to find life is to trust in Jesus (John 14:6) and the Old Testament says that our works are like 'filthy rags' to God because we're still guilty of our rebellion against Him. That said, the Bible does say it's obvious God exists through creation (Romans 1) so if somebody in an Amazon tribe became convinced that God exists and they knew they were unworthy of Him because of their rebellious nature (which I guess could be seen in behaviour and thoughts even by somebody who didn't know about their rebellion against God). If they then trusted that maybe God had promised somebody to sort out their sin, then the Bible doesn't say whether that person would be saved or not. Basically the Bible says God is gracious and just and though we don't know about people who have never heard about Jesus, I trust God will judge them rightly and so I leave them in His capable hands.

Matthew 16:27-this is in the context of Jesus rebuking Peter for saying that Jesus would not die and that the disciples have to lose their life as the cost of following Jesus and that if they do not lose their life they will be judged. This is seen all over the Bible, but in the New Testament it is clear that the only way to be saved is not according to works but how they have responded to Jesus and how they live as a result of what Jesus has done for them. The Bible does certainly say Christians have to do works- but these are not works to be saved, but works because they are saved, in order to show that their lives belong to Christ and are being changed by His Spirit.

(Original post by rac1)
what about if you lived before Christ?... the time is 50BC: person 1: "Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?" person 2: "errrrr...who?

The Bible answers that question actually- the Bible teaches that people in the Old Testament- before Jesus- were justified by their faith in God's promises to sort out their sin. Throughout the whole of the Old Testament God promises somebody who would come and sort out their sin (God's special king, the Messiah- same word as Christ) and that Jesus is the fulfilment of those promises. The book of Hebrews describes Jesus' death as 'once for all time' (Hebrews 9:26) so somebody in the Old Testament was justified (made innocent) by looking forward to a day when God's Messiah would sort out their sin.;

[Christianlady]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
Non Christians can contribute if they want to but this question is directed mainly at Christians.

My personal view is that salvation cannot be lost and that it happens once. I don't believe that you can 'sin too much' and then the Holy Spirit leaves you. Although some verses seem to say you can lose salvation, I believe that they don't.

Example:

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. "

My interpretation is that this is talking about people who have heard the gospel message and understand it but still have not submitted to Christ. It is possible to argue against this as it's open to interpretation.

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Again, I believe that if there is a 'Christian' who suddenly becomes an adulterer or starts dedicating their life to other sinful acts, I would be led to believe that perhaps they were never a Christian in the first place. If the Holy Spirit is in you, then you are a new Creation and the Spirit will help you become more like Christ.


In actual fact, it matters little what you believe as long as you believe that salvation is in Christ through his life, death and resurrection alone.

Discuss.

References:

http://carm.org/questions/about-doct...-his-salvation - Cannot lose salvation
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/lose-your-salvation/ - Can lose salvation

Hello Dagnabbit,

This is a very interesting topic that is a difficult one as well. I personally believe that it is not possible to lose salvation. However, I do believe it is possible to displease God. A person who truly loves God does not want to displease Him, but rather wants to please Him because that person loves Him. For example, I love God, and my love for God motivates me to please Him. My love for my husband motivates me to make my husband smile. My love for my parents includes respecting them and wanting them to be proud of me and not worry about me. My love for my sisters includes my desire to protect them and be a good role model for them. My love for animals motivates me to protect their welfare and feed them and strive to protect them from people being cruel to them. My love for Jesus includes obeying him and following his teachings.

Love motivates people. So, I personally don't believe people lose salvation, but I do believe that if a person loves, one can see that love through the actions of the one who loves.

Peace and God bless

[rac1]

[QUOTE=jmj;37639176]I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your point here.

Well...*breaths deeply*

.eXe said

My definition of salvation is: "the ability to obtain the kingdom of heaven by accepting Jesus as a personal saviour"

I assure you, most "Christians" have this definition because as I and another poster stated earlier, it is the act of accepting Jesus which assures or solidifies the salvation. This is what is called "being saved"

and to me that sounds like a circular explanation becuase the reason he gives for most Christians having that definition of slavation salvation is accepting Jesus assures salvation. In fact he is almost stating the definition in reverse order, imho.

The Bible teaches it's not based on your memory, it's not based on anything you have done or can do, but based upon God's goodness to us through Jesus on the cross. This is how Paul puts it in Ephesians 1:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

Paul says here God chose us before the world even began and predestined us to be adopted as his sons because of his grace- and now He's got us, He will never let us go.

God knows the choices that we will make but we have free will.

funnily enough, someone called Robert Sungenis uses Paul's writings to argue against sola fide. (from wikipedia)

In response to sola fide, Robert Sungenis argues in his book Not by Faith Alone, that

A thorough study of his epistles reveals that Paul used the word faith and its cognates over two hundred times in the New Testament, but not once did he couple them with the adjectival qualifiers alone or only. Are we to believe that though he intended to teach justification by faith alone, he was never convinced that he should employ the attributes of the word alone to express explicitly what he invariably meant? What would have curtailed him from such an important qualification if indeed the solitude of faith in regard to justification was on the forefront of his mind? A second reason that leads us to pose this critical question is that Paul used the word alone more frequently than did any other New Testament writer. Many of these instances appear right alongside the very contexts that contain teachings on faith and justification. Thus it is obvious that even while Paul was teaching about the nature of justification he was keenly aware of the word alone and its qualifying properties. This would lead us to expect that if Paul, who is usually very direct and candid in his epistles, wanted to teach unambiguously and unequivocally that man was justified by faith alone, he would be compelled to use the phrase if he thought it would make his point indisputable. Moreover, since Paul's writings were inspired, we must also acknowledge that the Holy Spirit likewise knew of the inherent qualifying properties of the word alone but had specific reasons for prohibiting Paul from using it in connection with faith.

[QUOTE=rac1;37513489]Your first point (lol)- I was looking at this article on wikipedia and I think there seem to be more passages 'against' sola fide than there are for (which isn't exactly how you should read the bible). also a lot of the ones that are for sola fide don't seem to explicitly state that: contrast this (for point) Romans 5 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." with this (against point) Matthew 16 "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."

[QUOTE]Your second point- I guess I agree

Anyway I like the idea of invincible ignorance- whereby if you never really had the opportunity to find God and be saved then God wouldn't blame you for that and there would be a place for you in heaven if you had done your best morally speaking with what you had. Say if I was living in an unseen by the outside world tribe in the Amazon Basin and the nearest believer was miles away, I would get sent straight to hell when I died?

(Original post by rac1)

Well, the Bible says you can never be right with God by what we do- the only way to find life is to trust in Jesus (John 14:6) and the Old Testament says that our works are like 'filthy rags' to God because we're still guilty of our rebellion against Him. That said, the Bible does say it's obvious God exists through creation (Romans 1) so if somebody in an Amazon tribe became convinced that God exists and they knew they were unworthy of Him because of their rebellious nature (which I guess could be seen in behaviour and thoughts even by somebody who didn't know about their rebellion against God). If they then trusted that maybe God had promised somebody to sort out their sin, then the Bible doesn't say whether that person would be saved or not. Basically the Bible says God is gracious and just and though we don't know about people who have never heard about Jesus, I trust God will judge them rightly and so I leave them in His capable hands.

fair enough

Matthew 16:27-this is in the context of Jesus rebuking Peter for saying that Jesus would not die and that the disciples have to lose their life as the cost of following Jesus and that if they do not lose their life they will be judged. This is seen all over the Bible, but in the New Testament it is clear that the only way to be saved is not according to works but how they have responded to Jesus and how they live as a result of what Jesus has done for them. The Bible does certainly say Christians have to do works- but these are not works to be saved, but works because they are saved, in order to show that their lives belong to Christ and are being changed by His Spirit.

I'm sure I've already posted this- http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

this is also pretty explicit in its meaning http://bible.cc/james/2-24.htm

The Bible answers that question actually- the Bible teaches that people in the Old Testament- before Jesus- were justified by their faith in God's promises to sort out their sin. Throughout the whole of the Old Testament God promises somebody who would come and sort out their sin (God's special king, the Messiah- same word as Christ) and that Jesus is the fulfilment of those promises. The book of Hebrews describes Jesus' death as 'once for all time' (Hebrews 9:26) so somebody in the Old Testament was justified (made innocent) by looking forward to a day when God's Messiah would sort out their sin.;

yeah Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.

[yawn]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
Non Christians can contribute if they want to but this question is directed mainly at Christians.

My personal view is that salvation cannot be lost and that it happens once. I don't believe that you can 'sin too much' and then the Holy Spirit leaves you. Although some verses seem to say you can lose salvation, I believe that they don't.

Example:

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. "

My interpretation is that this is talking about people who have heard the gospel message and understand it but still have not submitted to Christ. It is possible to argue against this as it's open to interpretation.

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Again, I believe that if there is a 'Christian' who suddenly becomes an adulterer or starts dedicating their life to other sinful acts, I would be led to believe that perhaps they were never a Christian in the first place. If the Holy Spirit is in you, then you are a new Creation and the Spirit will help you become more like Christ.


In actual fact, it matters little what you believe as long as you believe that salvation is in Christ through his life, death and resurrection alone.

Discuss.

References:

http://carm.org/questions/about-doct...-his-salvation - Cannot lose salvation
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/lose-your-salvation/ - Can lose salvation

Protestants (following the teachings of Luther) believe that 1 Jn. 5:11-13 assures us that 'once saved, always saved' but we need to look a little closer at biblical exegesis before we assume assured salvation. Sometimes Scripture speaks of believers possessing eternal life now, but it also talks about it as something in the future.


When eternal life is described as a present possession of Christians, this is an example of what theologians call "realised eschatology." This means that Christians participate now in a limited way in what they will experience more fully in the Kingdom of God to come. It doesn't necessarily imply those who have so partaken of the Kingdom and its gifts can't be lost (Heb 3:14; 6:4-6).


The Bible speaks of eternal life as something future (Mt 19:29; Mk 9:43-47; Ti 1:2; 3:7; Jude 21) and based upon our fidelity, by God's grace, to his commandments (Mt 19:16-17; 25:46; Jn 3:36; Rom 2:6-10; 1 Tm 6:18-19; Jas 1:12; 2 Tm 2:12).

Since salvation is spoken of as a future prospect, we cannot correctly assume that it is a future assurety.

I know that some will say belief implies adherence to God's will through the grace given by that belief. But I'm sure that, whilst not wishing to call judgement on our fellow man, we will recall many who professed faith who did not live up to that ideal. Are such, despite their sinful natures and lack of repentance, assured of salvation? I think not.

Furthermore, for those who are really interested in examining the question rather than persisting in believing they have the answer, a look at the sacred and traditional teachings of the Early Church Fathers and be guided by both scripture in its entirety in matters pertaining to salvation and the teachings handed down by Jesus and His apostles to those Church fathers. It's really interesting and I would urge you to have a look.

Spoiler:

Show

"And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For 'cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.'" Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110).


"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time." Didache, 16 (A.D. 90).


"And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish...Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life." Hermas, The Shephard, 37 (A.D. 155).


"[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition." Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus' Against Heresies, 51 (A.D. 156).


"Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls." Tatian the Syrian, To the Greeks, 13 (A.D. 175).


"Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.'" Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 42 (A.D. 180).


"But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?" Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 (A.D. 204).


"Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, 'He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,' whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained." Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 21 (A.D. 251).


"Therefore, my beloved, we also have received of the Spirit of Christ, and Christ dwelleth in us, as it is written that the Spirit said this through the month of the Prophet: --I will dwell in them and will walk in them. Therefore let us prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ, and let us not grieve it that it may not depart from us. Remember the warning that the Apostle gives us:--Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye have been sealed unto the day of redemption. For from baptism do we receive the Spirit of Christ ... And whatever man there is that receives the Spirit from the water (of baptism) and grieves it, it departs from him until he dies, and returns according to its nature to Christ, and accuses that man of having grieved it." Aphrahat, Demonstrations, 6:14 (A.D. 345).


"Thou art made partaker of the Holy Vine. Well then, if thou abide in the Vine, thou growest as a fruitful branch; but if thou abide not, thou wilt be consumed by the fire. Let us therefore bear fruit worthily. God forbid that in us should be done what befell that barren fig-tree, that Jesus come not even now and curse us for our barrenness." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, I:4 (A.D. 350).


"It is the Spirit then which is in God, and not we viewed in our own selves; and as we are sons and gods because of the Word in us, so we shall be in the Son and in the Father, and we shall be accounted to have become one in Son and in Father, because that that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. When then a man falls from the Spirit for any wickedness, if he repent upon his fall, the grace remains irrevocably to such as are willing; otherwise he who has fallen is no longer in God (because that Holy Spirit and Paraclete which is in God has deserted him), but the sinner shall be in him to whom he has subjected himself, as took place in Saul's instance; for the Spirit of God departed from him and an evil spirit was afflicting him." Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, 3:25 (A.D. 362).


"Clerics who are guilty of the sin unto death are degraded from their order, but not excluded from the communion of the laity." Basil, To Amphilochius, Letter 199:32 (A.D. 375).


"This temple is holier than that; for it glistened not with gold and silver, but with the grace of the Spirit, and in place of the ark and the cherubim, it had Christ, and His Father, and the Paraclete seated within. But now all is changed, and the temple is desolate, and bare of its former beauty and comeliness, unadorned with its divine and unspeakable adornments, destitute of all security and protection; it has neither door nor bolt, and is laid open to all manner of soul-destroying and shameful thoughts; and if the thought of arrogance or fornication, or avarice, or any more accursed than these, wish to enter in there is no one to hinder them; whereas formerly, even as the Heaven is inaccessible to all these, so also was the purity of thy soul." John Chrysostom, To the Fallen Theodore, Letter 1 (A.D. 378).


"But these sins were not after Baptism, you will say. Where is your proof? Either prove it--or refrain from condemning; and if there be any doubt, let charity prevail. But Novatus, you say, would not receive those who lapsed in the persecution. What do you mean by this? If they were unrepentant he was right; I too would refuse to receive those who either would not stoop at all or not sufficiently, and who would refuse to make their amendment counterbalance their sin; and when I do receive them, I will assign them their proper place; but if he refused those who wore themselves away with weeping, I will not imitate him." Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration on the Holy Lights, 39:19 (A.D. 381).


"Let us admonish each other. Let us correct each other, that we may not go to the other world as debtors, and then, needing to borrow of others, suffer the fate of the foolish virgins, and fall from immortal salvation." John Chrysostom, Concerning Statues, 21 (A.D. 387).


"Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him? 'You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins.'" Jerome, Against Jovianus, 2:30 (A.D. 393).


"And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe on Him, since He Himself says, 'No man cometh unto me, except it were given him of my Father,' and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole layer of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation." Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 12 (A.D. 427).


"The faith of these, which worketh by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God's purpose, and thus are not elected.” Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 16 (A.D. 427).

"It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children--whom He has regenerated in Christ--to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also." Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427).

"Let the inquirer still go on, and say, 'Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end?' Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us.' Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure." Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance, 19 (A.D. 429).


"The manifold mercy of God so assists men when they fall, that not only by the grace of baptism but also by the remedy of penitence is the hope of eternal life revived, in order that they who have violated the gifts of the second birth, condemning themselves by their own judgment, may attain to remission of their crimes, the provisions of the Divine Goodness having so ordained that God’s indulgence cannot be obtained without the supplications of priests. For the Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, has transmitted this power to those that are set over the Church that they should both grant a course of penitence to those who confess, and, when they are cleansed by wholesome correction admit them through the door of reconciliation to communion in the sacraments." Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D. 440-461], To Theodore, Epistle 108:2 (A.D. 452).


"The branches of the vine. Thus there are branches in the vine, not that they may bestow anything upon the vine, but that they may receive from it the means by which they may live...And by this it is an advantage to the disciples, not to Christ, that each have Christ abiding in him, and that each abide in Christ. For if the branch is cut off, another can sprout forth from the living root; but that which has been cut off, cannot live without the root." Council of Orange, Canon 24 (A.D. 529).


"And they who mourn their transgressions certainly cast forth by confession the wickedness with which they have been evilly satiated, and which oppressed the inmost parts of their soul; and yet, in recurring to it after confession, they take it in again. But the sow, by wallowing in the mire when washed, is made more filthy. And one who mourns past transgressions, yet forsakes them not, subjects himself to the penalty of more grievous sin, since he both despises the very pardon which he might have won by his weeping, and as it were rolls himself in miry water; because in withholding purity of life from his weeping he makes even his very tears filthy before the eyes of God." Pope Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604], Pastoral Rule, 30 (A.D. 591).


"The remission of sins, therefore, is granted alike to all through baptism: but the grace of the Spirit is proportional to the faith and previous purification. Now, indeed, we receive the first fruits of the Holy Spirit through baptism, and the second birth is for us the beginning and seal and security and illumination s of another life. It behooves as, then, with all our strength to steadfastly keep ourselves pure from filthy works, that we may not, like the dog returning to his vomit, make ourselves again the slaves of sin. For faith apart from works is dead, and so likewise are works apart from faith. For the true faith is attested by works." John of Damascus, On the Orthodox Faith, 4:9 (A.D. 743).

[jmj]

(Original post by rac1)
that sounds like a circular explanation becuase the reason he gives for most Christians having that definition of slavation salvation is accepting Jesus assures salvation. In fact he is almost stating the definition in reverse order, imho.[/I]

Yes, you are saved if you trust in Jesus' death and resurrection and repent (turn back from sin, rebellion against God, and turn to Him as King). That is the role of the individual to confess Christ as Lord and trust in Jesus. But that's only the surface of what's going on- God does a whole lot of work before the Christian decides to become one. There is a role we play in accepting Christ as our saviour and king, but the Bible says that there's a lot more God is doing behind the scenes- Jesus says the Holy Spirit works to convict people into sin and lead them into truth (John 16:8, 13). It's the Spirit Himself, through the proclamation of the Gospel, that hardens people's hearts and opens people's eyes to accept Jesus for themselves. The bible teaches without the Spirit's power, people are spiritually dead and blind and hate God and would never become Christians for themselves (Eph 2). So we're never able to accept God without God choosing us first and doing that transformation work in our hearts by His Spirit as we hear the Gospel.

(Original post by rac1)
[I]God knows the choices that we will make but we have free will.

It's not just He knows the choices we make- God's very clear here from the Ephesians 1 that God chose us before the creation of the world. The Ephesians passage is clear that God chose us first, before we were born- before He created the world He knew who would be His. It's also our choice yes- but it's a combination of God choosing us so we then choose Him. Like I said before about the Holy Spirit, the Spirit works in us so we accept Christ is Lord. It's entirely God's work that we are saved- we have to respond, but it's God who causes us to respond through His Holy Spirit as we hear the Gospel.

I think both this passage and passages like Romans 9 make it absolutely clear that God predestines us- that is, He chooses us before we have anything to do with it. It's not just God knows and watches our decisions, He actively chooses us to have a relationship with Him. It's the role of Christians to tell other people about Jesus not because God doesn't know who will be His people and who won't, but because God chooses to use us to cause the people who are His to hear the Gospel and have that Spirit-changing process in their heart so they can accept Jesus for themselves.

[rac1]

(Original post by jmj)
Yes, you are saved if you trust in Jesus' death and resurrection and repent (turn back from sin, rebellion against God, and turn to Him as King). That is the role of the individual to confess Christ as Lord and trust in Jesus. But that's only the surface of what's going on- God does a whole lot of work before the Christian decides to become one. There is a role we play in accepting Christ as our saviour and king, but the Bible says that there's a lot more God is doing behind the scenes- Jesus says the Holy Spirit works to convict people into sin and lead them into truth (John 16:8, 13). It's the Spirit Himself, through the proclamation of the Gospel, that hardens people's hearts and opens people's eyes to accept Jesus for themselves. The bible teaches without the Spirit's power, people are spiritually dead and blind and hate God and would never become Christians for themselves (Eph 2). So we're never able to accept God without God choosing us first and doing that transformation work in our hearts by His Spirit as we hear the Gospel.



It's not just He knows the choices we make- God's very clear here from the Ephesians 1 that God chose us before the creation of the world. The Ephesians passage is clear that God chose us first, before we were born- before He created the world He knew who would be His. It's also our choice yes- but it's a combination of God choosing us so we then choose Him. Like I said before about the Holy Spirit, the Spirit works in us so we accept Christ is Lord. It's entirely God's work that we are saved- we have to respond, but it's God who causes us to respond through His Holy Spirit as we hear the Gospel.

I think both this passage and passages like Romans 9 make it absolutely clear that God predestines us- that is, He chooses us before we have anything to do with it. It's not just God knows and watches our decisions, He actively chooses us to have a relationship with Him. It's the role of Christians to tell other people about Jesus not because God doesn't know who will be His people and who won't, but because God chooses to use us to cause the people who are His to hear the Gospel and have that Spirit-changing process in their heart so they can accept Jesus for themselves.

I'm sticking with Church teaching it makes sense to me. A google search for 'Romans 9 catholic' shows up plenty of results against predestination. That's the best I can give you for now)

That last paragraph sounds quite contradictory It's up to you to change people but you are enabling them to have a Spirit-changing process but God has chosen them as well

[dreahxo]

I think that our Father in heaven, the Lord Almighty, is a forgiving and merciful God, if it were not for his grace, we would already be in the pits of hell right now tbh.
But with that being said, just because the Lord forgives, it doesnt mean that we should just carry on sinning because we think that we are already saved. Its not just a case of following laws or even legalism,but we should want to obey his commandments because of our love for Him.
Religion says : follow my commandments and I will love you
through a true and genuine relationship with the Lord, you will want to obey his commandments because you love Him.
The Lord sees your heart, and will know a truly repentant heart, so acting like the world (alcohol, sexual immorality, drugs etc) but then saying you can get away with it because you have salvation is just corrupt. Its reasons like that why so few people enter the narrow gate (matthew 7:13-14)

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by dreahxo)
I think that our Father in heaven, the Lord Almighty, is a forgiving and merciful God, if it were not for his grace, we would already be in the pits of hell right now tbh.
But with that being said, just because the Lord forgives, it doesnt mean that we should just carry on sinning because we think that we are already saved. Its not just a case of following laws or even legalism,but we should want to obey his commandments because of our love for Him.
Religion says : follow my commandments and I will love you
through a true and genuine relationship with the Lord, you will want to obey his commandments because you love Him.
The Lord sees your heart, and will know a truly repentant heart, so acting like the world (alcohol, sexual immorality, drugs etc) but then saying you can get away with it because you have salvation is just corrupt. Its reasons like that why so few people enter the narrow gate (matthew 7:13-14)

How many sins does Jesus' blood wash away?

A few, 150, 1763, or all of them?

[NJA]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
Non Christians can contribute if they want to but this question is directed mainly at Christians.
My personal view is that salvation cannot be lost and that it happens once.

My view is that it can be, and for the majority of Christians will be lost / let go of.

Paul, writing to the Christians at Rome says:
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off." (11:22)

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
I don't believe that you can 'sin too much' and then the Holy Spirit leaves you. Although some verses seem to say you can lose salvation, I believe that they don't.

You don't lose the Spirit in this life, but if you "walk in the flesh" you are the proverbial "sow that was washed, returning to her wallowing in the mire, a dog returning to it's vomit"

You are no longer living The Life, God is no longer your first love.

As Jesus warns the church (that's Christians) at Ephesus:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because you have left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove your candlestick out of his place, except you repent. " (Rev. 2:4-5)

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. "
My interpretation is that this is talking about people who have heard the gospel message and understand it but still have not submitted to Christ.

No, it is written to people who are known to have become Christians,
"holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"(3:1)

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
It is possible to argue against this as it's open to interpretation.

No, it's closed to interpretation, any interpretation that does not fit the scriptures is wrong, possibly dangerously wrong.

All it is open to mis-use and abuse, just as Satan quoted it to Jesus.

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
I believe that if there is a 'Christian' who suddenly becomes an adulterer or starts dedicating their life to other sinful acts, I would be led to believe that perhaps they were never a Christian in the first place.

So you are not believing that the Corinthians were Christians, even though the bible says they were!

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus" (1:2)

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you" (5:1)

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
In actual fact, it matters little what you believe as long as you believe that salvation is in Christ through his life, death and resurrection alone.

In actual fact, it matters a lot what you believe. If you don't believe in the need to "walk in the Spirit", and what this means (God will teach you as you go along), you will be as the Corinthians were, initially.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
My view is that it can be, and for the majority of Christians will be lost / let go of.

Interesting...

Paul, writing to the Christians at Rome says:
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off." (11:22)

Scriptures should be interpreted by other Scriptures, and read within the context. Taking one Scripture out of context won't build you a doctrine.

Let's examine the context of the verse.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. (Romans 11:19-23)

Fro the context we clearly see that Paul is speaking of true believers, and unbelievers. Unbelievers will be broken of. True believers are those who perservere in God's kindness onto the end. (Heb. 3:6,14) Those who do not remain unto the end have never been saved in the first place (1 John 2:19), they will be cut off. Paul is basically saying " If you truly believe, you will believe forever. If you stop believeing, then it means that you never had real faith in the first place. You will be cut off. (because of unbelief they were broken off)

Carefully notice that the unbelieving where part of the tree also. This is clear evidence that the verse cannot be speaking about loss of Salvation.

You don't lose the Spirit in this life, but if you "walk in the flesh" you are the proverbial "sow that was washed, returning to her wallowing in the mire, a dog returning to it's vomit"

You admitted that Christians don't lose the Holy Spirit in this life. Could you provide us with a Bible verse that suggests that you can lose it after this life? We should always be very careful about trying to incorporate our ideas into the Bible.

You are no longer living The Life, God is no longer your first love.

Did King David lose his Salvation, after he comitted adultery, then murder, and then went into denial for a year? If yes, can you show me that in the Word of God?

As Jesus warns the church (that's Christians) at Ephesus:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because you have left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove your candlestick out of his place, except you repent. " (Rev. 2:4-5)

You seem to interpret the removal of candlestick as loss of Salvation. This is interesting. Since your interpretation doesn't agree with tonnes of other Scriptures, I'm afraid it's wrong.

No, it is written to people who are known to have become Christians,
"holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"(3:1)

Again, read in context.

Hebrews 10:26-29, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

A Christian is definitely not someone who trods under the foot the Son of God. As I've already shown, a Saving faith lasts forever.

Yes, Paul is writing to believers, but he's simply giving an advice for future evangelistic encounters. "Suppose we don't obey the gospel after having heard about Jesus. We cannot get Saved." (pretending that we aren't already)

No, it's closed to interpretation, any interpretation that does not fit the scriptures is wrong, possibly dangerously wrong.

You hit the nail on the head there my friend. If an interpretation doesn't agree with all other Scripture, it is wrong. That's why you should reconsider your loss of Salvation doctrine.

All it is open to mis-use and abuse, just as Satan quoted it to Jesus.

Yup.

So you are not believing that the Corinthians were Christians, even though the bible says they were!

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus" (1:2)

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you" (5:1)

Corinthians were Christians. It's intersting, that if you would have read the next few lines of the very chapter you quoted, you'd find out that the man responsible for fornication would be "Saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". He did not lose his Salvation.

In actual fact, it matters a lot what you believe. If you don't believe in the need to "walk in the Spirit", and what this means (God will teach you as you go along), you will be as the Corinthians were, initially.

We all need to walk in the Spirit, but we still have our flesh. The Spirit of God in a Christian, wrestles with the desires of the flesh daily (Romans 7:14-24; James 4:1) Paul struggled with sin (Romans 7:19). The Bible is filled with Christians who at times failed. Nowhere does the Bible mention that Paul or any of those Christians ever lost their Salvation. No, Salvation is a gift of God. We don't deserve it. We cannot lose it. Once you are born again, you are born again. Period. You don't get born again again and again. You become a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26). You don't become "unchild" of God by committing sin. You don't become unwashed by the blood of the Lamb by committing sin.

A suggestion that one can keep his salvation by his efforts, is rooted in self righteousness. You do not deserve to obtain Salvation, and you do not deserve to keep it. Salvation is of the Lord. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Please have a read here;

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...y_from_god.htm

Brilliant article.

God bless.

[gltw]

We should cut through all the theological gobbledygook and look at what Jesus Christ had to say.

John 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


It would be a strange type of eternal life if I had it today and not tomorrow. It is clearly a promise from Jesus Christ that if we repent and believe, we have eternal life. It not a future prospect but something experienced now and for all eternity.

[jmj]

(Original post by rac1)
I'm sticking with Church teaching it makes sense to me. A google search for 'Romans 9 catholic' shows up plenty of results against predestination. That's the best I can give you for now)

Well, that's up to you. The heart of the reformation is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura 'Bible alone' which is the idea that the Bible has the highest authority as God's Word and not the teaching or traditions of the Catholic church. Throughout his letters Paul commands his readers to test things against his teachings- and the 'teaching' Paul refers to is simply the Gospel (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which we now have written down for us in the Bible,. e.g. the whole book of Romans could be summed up as the nitty gritty of the Gospel and how to live in response. Paul describes the unique authority of the Scriptures in 2 Timothy 3:15-17. For me personally, Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 could not be clearer to say that God has predestined us- Paul uses the word 'predestined' throughout and explicitly states that God has chosen some and not others for his glory. I find it interesting how anyone can come up with a different understanding of Romans 9 than that- but I am happy to disagree with you, and of course I respect your opinion and the stance of Catholic teaching on the subject, though of course I disagree.

(Original post by aljolson)
That last paragraph sounds quite contradictory It's up to you to change people but you are enabling them to have a Spirit-changing process but God has chosen them as well

Sorry, I didn't mean to be confusing- allow me to try to clarify. Scripture teaches that it is the role of the Christian to tell other people about Jesus (Matthew 28:19). However, a closer look at the Bible shows that this is really God's work and He uses us. Christians have a part to play, but it's always God who's doing the work and using us.

Eph 2 describes the non-Christian as spiritually blind and dead- we cannot enter into a relationship with God on our own. We need God's help to be friends with Him. It's the individual responsibility of non-Christians to respond to Jesus, but if that individual is going to become a Christian, then there is already a work of God through His Spirit in that person's life to cause them to accept Jesus. Here's a summary of this:

Non-Christian----- hears the Gospel---- if they are predestined, then God works in His Holy Spirit to cause them to turn to Jesus.

Non-Christian---- hears the Gospel---- if they are not predestined, then they will reject Jesus.

[rac1]

(Original post by jmj)
Well, that's up to you. The heart of the reformation is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura 'Bible alone' which is the idea that the Bible has the highest authority as God's Word and not the teaching or traditions of the Catholic church. Throughout his letters Paul commands his readers to test things against his teachings- and the 'teaching' Paul refers to is simply the Gospel (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which we now have written down for us in the Bible,. e.g. the whole book of Romans could be summed up as the nitty gritty of the Gospel and how to live in response. Paul describes the unique authority of the Scriptures in 2 Timothy 3:15-17. For me personally, Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 could not be clearer to say that God has predestined us- Paul uses the word 'predestined' throughout and explicitly states that God has chosen some and not others for his glory. I find it interesting how anyone can come up with a different understanding of Romans 9 than that- but I am happy to disagree with you, and of course I respect your opinion and the stance of Catholic teaching on the subject, though of course I disagree.

Every little thing isn't written in the bible so I think its helpful that there is a church guided by the Holy Spirit
Why does God create people who are predestined for hell?

Sorry, I didn't mean to be confusing- allow me to try to clarify. Scripture teaches that it is the role of the Christian to tell other people about Jesus (Matthew 28:19). However, a closer look at the Bible shows that this is really God's work and He uses us. Christians have a part to play, but it's always God who's doing the work and using us.

agreed

Non-Christian---- hears the Gospel---- if they are not predestined, then they will reject Jesus.

Does that mean you can give up trying to evangelize that person?

[dreahxo]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
How many sins does Jesus' blood wash away?

A few, 150, 1763, or all of them?

He washed away ALL our sins but just because you are forgiven, doesn't mean you should carry on sinning.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
How many sins does Jesus' blood wash away?

A few, 150, 1763, or all of them?

The formula for how many sins Jesus washes away is:

(x^x + 1)/x-x

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by .eXe)
The formula for how many sins Jesus washes away is:

(x^x + 1)/x-x

Quality ;-)

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by dreahxo)
He washed away ALL our sins

Correct.

but just because you are forgiven, doesn't mean you should carry on sinning

.
Correct.

It's the previous post where I see a glich;

The Lord sees your heart, and will know a truly repentant heart, so acting like the world (alcohol, sexual immorality, drugs etc) but then saying you can get away with it because you have salvation is just corrupt. Its reasons like that why so few people enter the narrow gate (matthew 7:13-14)

1. God chastises His children. We become children of God by faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26)

2. If Christians willfully live in unrepentant sin they are in danger of losing rewards for their service (Bema Judgement seat of Christ)

http://www.raptureready.com/abc/Judg...of_Christ.html

http://bible.org/article/doctrine-re...at-bema-christ

3. Everyone who trusted Jesus as their Saviour is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is grieved when we backslide, and we lose the joy and comfort His presence provides. We also lose the joy of being close with the Lord.

4. Jesus is the narrow gate.

You seem to imply that we get punished for our sins, forgetting that Jesus took the punishment. Yes, God chastises us if we do wrong, but that's got nothing to do with taking away our sins.

Please, read the end of my long reply above, where I explain what it means to be born again.

Also, your post reminds me of Paul Washer and Ray Comfort so much. Don't listen to them. They are false prophets.

[jmj]

(Original post by rac1)
Every little thing isn't written in the bible so I think its helpful that there is a church guided by the Holy Spirit

Of course, I'm not trying to say otherwise However I do not think that the 'church' is an institution which has an infallible authority- I believe the Bible teaches that the Bible alone is the highest authority. It's extremely helpful, important and crucial that there is a church- church in the Bible is simply the collective term for God's people; it can refer to a local gathering or all Christians who trust Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. The Holy Spirit is crucial in helping us fight sin, become more like Jesus, understand the Scriptures and tell other people about Jesus. You're right that the Bible doesn't tell us everything, but Peter does tell us it has everything we need to know for life and godliness (2 peter 1:3). So the church has a vital role, I just don't think it has more authority on the Bible than the Bible itself.

(Original post by rac1)
Why does God create people who are predestined for hell?

Excellent question, which Paul answers in Romans 9. Paul's argument previously in Romans is that all have fallen away (Romans 3:10-12) and all deserve God's wrath for their rebellion against Him (Romans 6:23). In Romans 9, Paul basically says that because He created us and we have rejected us, God has every right to do with us as He wants. He compares it to a potter making clay and the clay talking back to him- Paul is arguing that us talking back to God is saying 'hey, you made me a cup- but I wanted to be a bowl!'

Paul goes on to tell us why God creates some for destruction:

"22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory" Romans 9:22-23

You see, God's purpose for saving His people wasn't primarily for our benefit- it was so He could be glorified. Our salvation is a by-product of His glory. Now you might say He's egotistical or selfish- and I would agree with you if you were talking about anybody but God. God created this universe out of nothing and sustains it all. Revelation 4 puts it like this:

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,(AE)
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Does that mean you can give up trying to evangelize that person?[/QUOTE]

So John's argument here is that actually God is worthy to receive glory because He created everything; it's simply about God getting the credit that He deserves and the way God most gets the glory is by choosing to save some and choosing to judge others. You may think that's unfair, but the truth is we're all deserving of His wrath because of the way we've rebelled against Him- and the opportunity is there to be saved, we simply have to trust in Jesus in what He has done to reconcile us to God on the cross, taking the punishment we deserve on our behalf.

We don't give up on evangelism at all, because we have no idea who are God's elect (those He has predestined to be His) and those who aren't. Also God delights in using His people- God could have used some other way to inform people about Jesus, but He chooses to use His people to tell others the Gospel. So it's not- God's sovereign, therefore you can relax, but God's Sovereign, therefore tell people about Jesus.

[Okashira]

Can salvation be loss? No one can take salvation from anyone, but, you can give up your salvation. The Scripture says that no one and nothing can take a person out of God's hand, but it never says that same person can't jump out of God's hand.

Salvation is lost the very moment a Christian thinks he can do something to earn it. This is called falling from grace. If we could earn God's grace, it's no longer grace, but simply debt. Something God owes us. God owes us nothing (except eternal seperation, and punishment for our sins), and the second we think we can earn Heaven by what we do, we fall from grace.

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. "

Sinning willfully means continuing to live after the desire of our bodies. In other words even though we know the reason why Jesus came, we still try to justify our body's desires. For example, if we have intimate relations with everyone our eyes desire, and then justify them by saying "God created us this way, to lust", then we justified the sin. In our eyes, it is not a sin, and there is no sacrifice for something we don't see as sin. Of course, according to God's standard, it is sin, which means it is missing the mark of His standard. (We were created in His image, so the standard we have is a mirror of His own)

(Original post by jmj)
Excellent question, which Paul answers in Romans 9. Paul's argument previously in Romans is that all have fallen away (Romans 3:10-12) and all deserve God's wrath for their rebellion against Him (Romans 6:23). In Romans 9, Paul basically says that because He created us and we have rejected us, God has every right to do with us as He wants. He compares it to a potter making clay and the clay talking back to him- Paul is arguing that us talking back to God is saying 'hey, you made me a cup- but I wanted to be a bowl!'

Paul goes on to tell us why God creates some for destruction:

"22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory" Romans 9:22-23

You see, God's purpose for saving His people wasn't primarily for our benefit- it was so He could be glorified. Our salvation is a by-product of His glory. Now you might say He's egotistical or selfish- and I would agree with you if you were talking about anybody but God. God created this universe out of nothing and sustains it all. Revelation 4 puts it like this:

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,(AE)
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Does that mean you can give up trying to evangelize that person?

So John's argument here is that actually God is worthy to receive glory because He created everything; it's simply about God getting the credit that He deserves and the way God most gets the glory is by choosing to save some and choosing to judge others. You may think that's unfair, but the truth is we're all deserving of His wrath because of the way we've rebelled against Him- and the opportunity is there to be saved, we simply have to trust in Jesus in what He has done to reconcile us to God on the cross, taking the punishment we deserve on our behalf.

We don't give up on evangelism at all, because we have no idea who are God's elect (those He has predestined to be His) and those who aren't. Also God delights in using His people- God could have used some other way to inform people about Jesus, but He chooses to use His people to tell others the Gospel. So it's not- God's sovereign, therefore you can relax, but God's Sovereign, therefore tell people about Jesus.

I have to disagree a little with this. You see when it talks about the potter and the clay, I believe it is more so talking on who God chose to honor and to dishonor. It makes reference to God choosing Jacob over Esau in terms of who would serve the other, and who God would continue His promise to Abraham through. We don't have the right to say to God "Why didn't you choose Esau over that deceiver Jacob?" God is the Potter, He has a right to choose who He wants to represent Him, who to make rich and who to take their riches away.

Now, when it comes to God showing His wrath to the objects prepared for destruction, Romans 9 22-23 gives the impression that those who are prepared for destruction, choose their own fate. Going back to what you said that we all deserved seperation from God, it shows that we had a choice in the matter. Yet the objects of His mercy, He has prepared "in advance". Why is it the objects prepared for mercy, are prepared in advance, while the objects of God's wrath, it is simply prepared? (As if one was prepared before hand, and the other was just prepared after the fact)

The truth is, God has prepared all men to receive Jesus, and be saved. As Scripture tells us, that God is not willing that anyone should be lost, but that all men come to repentance. It also tells us that He wants everyone to have saving knowledge. Yet there are many who will not, because of their own choice not to come back to God. So it is possible that everyone can be saved, but not everyone will be saved. Ultimately, God has not prepared His wrath in advance toward anyone, but it is prepared for those who choose to live in sin.