[Retrodiction]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
I'm not sure what you mean....

Could you clarify?

In the previous post I mentioned that if you are a Christian, you are not going to leave.

This is an easy way to discern between true and false converts.

How can you call somebody a true convert? You don't know that the person you're describing as a true christian hasn't already rejected Christianity & returned to it without telling anybody, and you don't know that they're not going to reject it in the future.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Retrodiction)
How can you call somebody a true convert?

The Word of God does. Read my replies on the previous page.

You don't know that the person you're describing as a true christian hasn't already rejected Christianity & returned to it

if they rejected Christianity, then it means they were not Christian. I've been through this. Please read my replies on the previous page again.

If they then trusted in Christ's redemptive work as payment for their sin, then that's the point when they became born again. They became blood bought, blood washed, born again, biblical Christians.

without telling anybody, and you don't know that they're not going to reject it in the future.

I do know if they're going to reject Christ in future or not. If they trusted him by believing the gospel, they will never leave their faith. Again, read my previous replies again. We've been through this.

You can become sealed by the Holy Spirit today;

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

Christ be with you and God bless.

[Dagnabbit]

(Original post by Retrodiction)
So you can't ever call someone a born again Christian? They could leave several times and come back without telling anybody.

The Bible never mentions any case of people hopping on and off salvation. You're making salvation sound like taking a ride on a taxi. You can't just be a Christian when it suits you and ditch it when you feel 'something better' has come along only to pick it back up again later.

[Retrodiction]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
The Bible never mentions any case of people hopping on and off salvation. You're making salvation sound like taking a ride on a taxi. You can't just be a Christian when it suits you and ditch it when you feel 'something better' has come along only to pick it back up again later.

So under what circumstances can you call a living person a true christian?

[Retrodiction]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
The Word of God does. Read my replies on the previous page.



if they rejected Christianity, then it means they were not Christian. I've been through this. Please read my replies on the previous page again.

If they then trusted in Christ's redemptive work as payment for their sin, then that's the point when they became born again. They became blood bought, blood washed, born again, biblical Christians.



I do know if they're going to reject Christ in future or not. If they trusted him by believing the gospel, they will never leave their faith. Again, read my previous replies again. We've been through this.

You can become sealed by the Holy Spirit today;

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

Christ be with you and God bless.

Ignoring my questions AND making cheap, sophomoric sales pitches.

[Dagnabbit]

(Original post by Retrodiction)
So under what circumstances can you call a living person a true christian?

When they have received the Spirit and spotless before the Father because of what Christ already did. Notice that works play no part.

[Retrodiction]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
When they have received the Spirit and spotless before the Father because of what Christ already did. Notice that works play no part.

And how can you tell if this has happened?

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Retrodiction)
And how can you tell if this has happened?

Ask the person in question.

[NJA]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Ask the person in question.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

[NJA]

(Original post by Retrodiction)
And how can you tell if this has happened?

There is a clear scriptural answer which you won't get from false Christianity:

Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46 (John 3:8, Galatians 4:6)

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 5:30-37

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

The passage is clearly, and specifically Jesus adressing His relationship to His Father, and How the specific works assigned to Him by His Father bear witness of Him. We're not talking works any man could do. We are talking specifically about works, only God could accomplish, showing Jesus is the chosen one.

Where in that passage do you find a suggestion that if a Christian is saying they trust Jesus, their witness is not true?

Romans 10:9-10 leaves your interpretation lacking;

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.(Romans 10:9-10)"

If confessing Jesus, makes your witness not true, then where does the above verse leave you?

This once again points towards the huge importance of interpreting Scriptures with Scriptures. You can't take one verse out of context and try to build a doctrine. You have to make every single verse agree.

Christ be with you, and God bless.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
There is a clear scriptural answer which you won't get from false Christianity:

Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46 (John 3:8, Galatians 4:6)

Speaking in tongues is not evidence of Salvation. It's a rare gift of the Holy Spirit.

Whether or not someone has the Spirit of God in their hearts or not is the issue being questioned, so using Galatians 4:6 is a bit of a circular argument. You are begging the question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

[NJA]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
John 5:30-37
The passage is clearly, and specifically Jesus adressing His relationship to His Father, and How the specific works assigned to Him by His Father bear witness of Him. We're not talking works any man could do. We are talking specifically about works, only God could accomplish, showing Jesus is the chosen one.

Jesus is the firstfruits, those that are Christ-ian are like him, in fact Jesus says:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12)

A true Christ-ian has Jesus Christ inside.

"every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4:3)

Note "is come in the flesh", not "came in the flesh", a new type of being now exists, not a one-off 2000 years ago.

"as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Where does the above verse (and numerous others I could cite) leave you?

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Romans 10:9-10 leaves your interpretation lacking;
If confessing Jesus, makes your witness not true, then where does the above verse leave you?

You don't understand what it means to "confess" Jesus and "believe on" him.
You have already denied him by arguing against his word!

Jesus warns that most who confess him as "Lord" will be told "I never knew you", he's not talking about atheists, these are people who think they are Christians. The word "confess", homo logos in the greek means the same word.
Jesus tells us that believers will receive His Spirit, know it, have signs following. Without these things what you have is "another Jesus", "another gospel".

Romans 10 is at the end of a letter written to people who have already received the Spirit of Christ, with the Spirit's witness, the "Abba Father" cry, the ability to "pray in the Spirit" (Romans 8:15-16, 27-27). Only such people have the new mind and heart, only such people can understand and therefore confess and rely on Jesus. These are "greater works" that you cannot understand until you receive the same Spirit.

[NJA]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Speaking in tongues is not evidence of Salvation. It's a rare gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not according to scripture and my experience, but then I'm in a church that sticks to the original.

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
The Word of God does. Read my replies on the previous page.



if they rejected Christianity, then it means they were not Christian. I've been through this. Please read my replies on the previous page again.

If they then trusted in Christ's redemptive work as payment for their sin, then that's the point when they became born again. They became blood bought, blood washed, born again, biblical Christians.



I do know if they're going to reject Christ in future or not. If they trusted him by believing the gospel, they will never leave their faith. Again, read my previous replies again. We've been through this.

You can become sealed by the Holy Spirit today;

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

Christ be with you and God bless.

That is just a ridiculous suggestion, if it were true then there'd be no Christians converting to other religions or leaving religion all together, something that's clearly not the case. Playing the "they weren't Christians" card is nonsense, since they were, then they decided to leave the church.

[imasupercoolgeek]

(Original post by Zim_)
Christians believe in fake Jesus looooooooooooooooool. Christianity is just a rip off. - - - - of Islam.


Christians believe JESUS had a son lol. how can God have a son? how did that happen Christians. oh yeah you cannot tell me lool

Jesus had a son? I don't know what Christianity your reading about


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[imasupercoolgeek]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
One last point I'd like to make is that Christ died once and rose again once. This, to me, represents a parallel in the life of the Christian dying once to their former life and rising again into new life once.



Also, a further question. Surely, if you believe in losing and regaining salvation, how does this work? You are saying that, while I've typed all this, I could, in theory, have gained and lost my salvation 10 (or 20 or 3567 etc.) times? That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I very like that parallel.

I don't believe people "lost their salvation", rather they backslide into sin for a season and go through a hard period but they still don't give up.
I believe Christians can lose their salvation, and that is by not running the race until the end, Jesus said "those who endure to the END will be saved" not those who run halfway and then abort.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
Jesus is the firstfruits, those that are Christ-ian are like him, in fact Jesus says:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12)

http://letusreason.org/Biblexp107.htm

The fact that people can share the gospel, without believing in it is enough to confirm that this alone cannot tell you for sure whether someone has been born again or not.

A true Christ-ian has Jesus Christ inside.

No one's denying that friend.

"every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4:3)

Note "is come in the flesh", not "came in the flesh", a new type of being now exists, not a one-off 2000 years ago.

Not sure what you mean here....

Again, no one is denying that Christ's Spirit indwells every believer.

Are you trying to suggest that Christians should test the Holy Spirit promised to everyone who puts their trust in Jesus? I really hope you are not.

"as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Where does the above verse (and numerous others I could cite) leave you?

Exactly where I am.

I'm really struggling to see your point.

You don't understand what it means to "confess" Jesus and "believe on" him.
You have already denied him by arguing against his word!

Quite an accusation to make. Let's examine the reasoning behind it.

Jesus warns that most who confess him as "Lord" will be told "I never knew you", he's not talking about atheists, these are people who think they are Christians.

Exactly that! And this is the point I've been making repeatedly throughout the thread, which is clear evidence that you have not read my previous replies;

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
You can devote your life to church, preach about God to all nations, go on 21 thousand missions to Africa, sell all your possesions and give the money to poor, pray 24 times a day, hardly ever sin and donate your organs to an enemy in need, and still find yourself plunged to the lake of fire.

This is serious stuff.

People in Matthew 7:21-23 found that out the hard way.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Lord you should let us into heaven, because we have done this, done that, we devoted our lives to you, we did so many wonderful things in Your name.

Jesus' answer is simple;

Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

All their works are as filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord. (Isaiah 64:6)

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind,"

They rested in their own righteousness, instead of getting cleansed in the precious blood of Christ and resting in His righteousness, by faith, and faith alone.

They did not do the will of the Father, which is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 6:39-40)

Once you accept Christ as Saviour into your life, His death burial and resurrection as payment for your sins, you are born again, born into the family of God. You are Baptised into Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:1-4)

You accept Christ through faith, and that is excluding any type of works on your part. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

We should always be careful trusting anything apart from the redemptive blood of Christ, as our way to heaven. The implications are eternal. Faith + works = no faith at all. We either rest in Christ's righteousness alone, or we do not.

If you believe you can earn Salvation you are in grave danger. Please for the sake of your soul's eternal destiny reconsider your position.

The word "confess", homo logos in the greek means the same word.

This sentence doesn't make grammatical sense. Could you please clarify?

Jesus tells us that believers will receive His Spirit, know it, have signs following. Without these things what you have is "another Jesus", "another gospel".

The Matthew 7:21-23 crowd had as many signs and wonders following them as you could dream of. They cried to Jesus "Lord, Lord!".

He told them He never knew them.

As I said before, the only way to know whether someone trusts Jesus, is to ask them.

I'm almost certain if you knew the Matthew 7:21-23 people, you'd say " They are going to heaven, because they have signs and wonders following them." Yet Jesus said to them "Depart from me."

In sharp contrast, I'm going to heaven not because I'm good, not because of the works which I did or will ever do, but because He paid for my ticket to heaven with His literal, physical, precious blood. I believe in His death burial and resurrection as payment for my sins. The work of the cross is accomplished. Nothing to be added, nothing to be taken away.

How arrogant and self righteous to suggest Christ's blood is insufficient to purify everyone who believes.

Do you really think there is anything you can do, to add to the finished, redemptive work of the cross?

Romans 10 is at the end of a letter written to people who have already received the Spirit of Christ, with the Spirit's witness, the "Abba Father" cry, the ability to "pray in the Spirit" (Romans 8:15-16, 27-27). Only such people have the new mind and heart, only such people can understand and therefore confess and rely on Jesus. These are "greater works" that you cannot understand until you receive the same Spirit.

Romans is written to believers. Paul is telling them how one gets saved.

Of course the letter will have been read to and read by non believers too.

If you need to confess the Lord Jesus in order to get saved (ie. become indwelt by the Holy Spirit)...

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."(Romans 10:10)

...and you can't confess the Lord Jesus (according to you) without being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then isn't it glaringly obvious that there is a problem with your reasoning?

You can't argue with Scriptures.

By greater works, Jesus probably meant spreading the gospel, but I'm still looking into this.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
That is just a ridiculous suggestion, if it were true then there'd be no Christians converting to other religions or leaving religion all together, something that's clearly not the case.

I have a challenge for you. Buy a Bible, study It's beautiful pages, search every verse and find one Christian converting to another religion. Just one.

Playing the "they weren't Christians" card is nonsense, since they were, then they decided to leave the church.

I never knew you had the power to decide who is a Christian and who is not. Probably because you don't.

Only God does.

Again, search the Scriptures. If God says that a Christian never leaves the faith, then it means that a Christian never leaves the faith. But then again, if you read my replies above, there are many people who will devote their entire lives to Jesus, only to be sent to hell for all of eternity.

Search the Scriptures.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
Not according to scripture and my experience, but then I'm in a church that sticks to the original.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/D...ongues/toc.htm