[NJA]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
...The fact that people can share the gospel, without believing in it is enough to confirm that this alone cannot tell you for sure whether someone has been born again or not.

I cannot get my head around this sentence, what does it mean? Ho w does it answer my point that the miracles, even greater miracles bare witness to the true gospel and who is believing it, so your point that we should not expect the same as Jesus had is dud.

You were asked
"And how can you tell if this has happened?" i.e. that a person has received the Spirit, you replied "Ask the person in question", the point is if they say "yes I have" or even "I can say 'Jesus is Lord' and I mean it", it does not mean they have, neither is a personal confession how the apostles were able to judge if & when people received God's Spirit.

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
No one's denying that friend.

Therefore it's the same Jesus, with the same miracles, including the new ones because he has returned to the Father, the ones that accompany the receiving of the Spirit.

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Exactly that! And this is the point I've been making repeatedly throughout the thread, which is clear evidence that you have not read my previous replies

I only needed to see your reply to me where you reasoned only Jesus has miracles following because he has a special relationship with the Father, the whole point of the gospel is to give all that relationship!

Since you quote your own writings I soon see further proof of the fact that you havn't grasped the gospel:

"Once you accept Christ as Saviour into your life, His death burial and resurrection as payment for your sins, you are born again, born into the family of God. You are Baptised into Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:1-4)"

Monstrous heresy!
You judge that you and others are "born again" because they think they have "accepted Christ as Saviour". You simply havn't listened to what Jesus and his apostles say about the born again experience = receiving the Spirit = receiving Christ.

- not because someone professes acceptance, but because God / the Spirit bares independent witness. with the specific sign of speaking in tongues.

God must give this because man's heart is "deceitful above all things" (Jer. 17:9, Acts 15:8-9).

Also Romans 6:1-4 is about water baptism, not the baptism into Christ by the baptism in the Spirit.

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
If you believe you can earn Salvation you are in grave danger. Please for the sake of your soul's eternal destiny reconsider your position.

I'm saved by the washing of the Spirit, as detailed in scripture, you are ignoring this detail and replacing it with a words-only message that saves no-one! Result, all your worship and religious activity is of the flesh, vain, a waste of time.

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
This sentence doesn't make grammatical sense. Could you please clarify?

The word "confess", homo logos in the greek means "the same word".

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
I'm almost certain if you knew the Matthew 7:21-23 people, you'd say " They are going to heaven, because they have signs and wonders following them." Yet Jesus said to them "Depart from me."

Wrong again, these are people who have received the Spirit, but who deny him by unrighteousness. So, receiving the Spirit with signs following gives you the ability to know God, but many who receive the Spirit will not make it because they do & say wrong things. But that doesn't mean the receiving of the Spirit with signs following is somehow optional.

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
I'm going to heaven not because I'm good, not because of the works which I did or will ever do, but because He paid for my ticket to heaven with His literal, physical, precious blood. I believe in His death burial and resurrection as payment for my sins. The work of the cross is accomplished. Nothing to be added, nothing to be taken away.

Calvary was to enable Pentecost:
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree: ... that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:13-14)

"you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9)

Until you get the receiving of the Spirit right, you have not got the salvation that Calvary made available.

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
How arrogant and self righteous to suggest Christ's blood is insufficient to purify everyone who believes.

It is sufficient, but you have to drink it by receiving the Spirit, until you do you are un-regenerated, unwashed, still "in the flesh".
The Old Testament serves as a pattern, they didn't just kill the lamb, they had to do something with the blood.

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
By greater works, Jesus probably meant spreading the gospel, but I'm still looking into this.

Keep looking! .. and spreading what "gospel"?
What did the apostles tell people who wanted salvation?

"confess Jesus is Lord"? no! - Acts 2:37-39, 8:12-18, 19:1-6

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
I cannot get my head around this sentence, what does it mean? Ho w does it answer my point that the miracles, even greater miracles bare witness to the true gospel and who is believing it, so your point that we should not expect the same as Jesus had is dud.

How many miracles have you performed?

You were asked
"And how can you tell if this has happened?" i.e. that a person has received the Spirit, you replied "Ask the person in question", the point is if they say "yes I have" or even "I can say 'Jesus is Lord' and I mean it", it does not mean they have, neither is a personal confession how the apostles were able to judge if & when people received God's Spirit.

Not judge if, but tell if.

You are confusing "becoming indwelt by the Holy Spirit", and "becoming filled by the Holy Spirit". Two different things.

Therefore it's the same Jesus, with the same miracles, including the new ones because he has returned to the Father, the ones that accompany the receiving of the Spirit.

I reapeat, how many miracles have you done?

I only needed to see your reply to me where you reasoned only Jesus has miracles following because he has a special relationship with the Father, the whole point of the gospel is to give all that relationship!

Please, stop attacking the Straw Man, and focus on the points I'm actually making.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I never said Jesus had miracles because He had a relationship with His father. I said there were some very specific Jesus did, that only He could do, because He is God.

Since you quote your own writings I soon see further proof of the fact that you havn't grasped the gospel:

"Once you accept Christ as Saviour into your life, His death burial and resurrection as payment for your sins, you are born again, born into the family of God. You are Baptised into Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:1-4)"

Monstrous heresy!
You judge that you and others are "born again" because they think they have "accepted Christ as Saviour". You simply havn't listened to what Jesus and his apostles say about the born again experience = receiving the Spirit = receiving Christ.

I haven't listened to what Jesus had to say? I find the statement slightly ironic.


Jesus' own words;

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."(John 3:36)

That settles it.

- not because someone professes acceptance, but because God / the Spirit bares independent witness. with the specific sign of speaking in tongues.

You believe you have eternal life because you speak in tongues? This is concerning.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books...tis_hutson.htm

God must give this because man's heart is "deceitful above all things" (Jer. 17:9, Acts 15:8-9).

You'll profit from reading the link above.

Also Romans 6:1-4 is about water baptism, not the baptism into Christ by the baptism in the Spirit.

Heresy.

Romans 6 doesn't mention, nor does it refer to water baptism once.

I'm saved by the washing of the Spirit, as detailed in scripture, you are ignoring this detail and replacing it with a words-only message that saves no-one! Result, all your worship and religious activity is of the flesh, vain, a waste of time.

The phrase "washing of the Spirit/washed by the Spirit/cleansed by the Spirit" is not found in the Bible. We get washed by the precious blood of the Lamb.

Titus 3:5 refers to the washing of renbirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

The word "confess", homo logos in the greek means "the same word".

The point being...

Wrong again, these are people who have received the Spirit, but who deny him by unrighteousness. So, receiving the Spirit with signs following gives you the ability to know God, but many who receive the Spirit will not make it because they do & say wrong things. But that doesn't mean the receiving of the Spirit with signs following is somehow optional.

Jesus specifically said they went to hell for not doing the will of the Father. I've been through this.

You haven't provided any evidence for your strange claims.

Calvary was to enable Pentecost:
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree: ... that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:13-14)

"you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9)

Until you get the receiving of the Spirit right, you have not got the salvation that Calvary made available.

You are confusing being indwelt with the Spirit, and being filled with the Spirit.

As I said, two different things. I don't have time to go through this today. Got an exam coming up on Monday. I have to revise.

It is sufficient, but you have to drink it by receiving the Spirit, until you do you are un-regenerated, unwashed, still "in the flesh".
The Old Testament serves as a pattern, they didn't just kill the lamb, they had to do something with the blood.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Believing on (trusting in/depending on) Jesus is sinonimous with becoming indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Keep looking! .. and spreading what "gospel"?
What did the apostles tell people who wanted salvation?

"confess Jesus is Lord"? no! - Acts 2:37-39, 8:12-18, 19:1-6

Acts 16:28-31

"But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Christ be with you and God bless.

I won't reply to your next post before next week. I do seriously need to revise.

PS. You seem slightly agressive throughout our conversation. It's not worth it.

Did you know that patience, self control, and kindness amongst others are fruits of the Holy Spirit?

God bless and may the Lord open up your heart and mind.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
I have a challenge for you. Buy a Bible, study It's beautiful pages, search every verse and find one Christian converting to another religion. Just one.

I already have one, it makes a great doorstop.

I have a different challenge for you - look at the world and find examples of real-life conversions, rather than limiting yourself to just a book. You'll find plenty of people moving between faiths.

I never knew you had the power to decide who is a Christian and who is not. Probably because you don't.

Only God does.

Again, search the Scriptures. If God says that a Christian never leaves the faith, then it means that a Christian never leaves the faith. But then again, if you read my replies above, there are many people who will devote their entire lives to Jesus, only to be sent to hell for all of eternity.

Search the Scriptures.

Aside from those people who leave Christianity and become Atheists, Pagans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc. - right? Or are they still Christians despite not believing in it and instead assign their faith to a different religion and worship a different god/none at all?

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
I already have one, it makes a great doorstop.

I have a different challenge for you - look at the world and find examples of real-life conversions, rather than limiting yourself to just a book. You'll find plenty of people moving between faiths.

I'll ignore your comment about the Word of God. You don't know who you are mocking. If you only knew that one day your tongue shall confess that He is the Lord...

It will be too late then.

I said this already. If you "convert" from Christianity, you were not Christian in the first place.

Aside from those people who leave Christianity and become Atheists, Pagans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc. - right? Or are they still Christians despite not believing in it and instead assign their faith to a different religion and worship a different god/none at all?

Not Christian to begin with.

If you read my previous posts you'd understood that by now.

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
I'll ignore your comment about the Word of God. You don't know who you are mocking. If you only knew that one day your tongue shall confess that He is the Lord...

The temptation to make a fictional being comment here is quite powerful...

I said this already. If you "convert" from Christianity, you were not Christian in the first place.


Not Christian to begin with.

If you read my previous posts you'd understood that by now.

I'm not buying it - if you believed the bible was the instructions of God, jesus died for our sins yadda yadda yadda then you were a Christian. If you then decide that actually that's not true, then you've left the church and are no longer a Christian.
They were a Christian in the time they believed that, by pretty much every definition going. The concept of "stop being a member = never really a member" is completely ridiculous, if I were to become a vegetarian, that wouldn't mean I was never an omnivorous person.

[NJA]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Acts 16:28-31

You year what you want to hear then walk away.
If you had stayed in that passage a little longer you would read:

"And they spake unto him the word of the Lord" (v32)
i.e. they thought it necessary to explain what it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". The earlier examples and the words of the Lord Jesus himself show that this means receiving the Spirit, with the sign of speaking in tongues, and getting baptised.

The same detail isn't repeated here because normal rules of communication apply. If your lecturer mentions something that was details previously you don't need him/her to repeat the same detail.

Like I said, you havn't understood what it means to believe on Jesus or confess him, and you have taken no correction which shows an attitude that will waste my time. Unless you have a change of heart I won't be saying any more to you.

[jmj]

(Original post by Okashira)
I have to disagree a little with this. You see when it talks about the potter and the clay, I believe it is more so talking on who God chose to honor and to dishonor. It makes reference to God choosing Jacob over Esau in terms of who would serve the other, and who God would continue His promise to Abraham through. We don't have the right to say to God "Why didn't you choose Esau over that deceiver Jacob?" God is the Potter, He has a right to choose who He wants to represent Him, who to make rich and who to take their riches away.

Now, when it comes to God showing His wrath to the objects prepared for destruction, Romans 9 22-23 gives the impression that those who are prepared for destruction, choose their own fate. Going back to what you said that we all deserved seperation from God, it shows that we had a choice in the matter. Yet the objects of His mercy, He has prepared "in advance". Why is it the objects prepared for mercy, are prepared in advance, while the objects of God's wrath, it is simply prepared? (As if one was prepared before hand, and the other was just prepared after the fact)

The truth is, God has prepared all men to receive Jesus, and be saved. As Scripture tells us, that God is not willing that anyone should be lost, but that all men come to repentance. It also tells us that He wants everyone to have saving knowledge. Yet there are many who will not, because of their own choice not to come back to God. So it is possible that everyone can be saved, but not everyone will be saved. Ultimately, God has not prepared His wrath in advance toward anyone, but it is prepared for those who choose to live in sin.

I find your take on this very interesting- of course, feel free to disagree however I think if we consider that God has not prepared his wrath in advance we have potentially difficult implications- I think it raises questions about God knowing everything- why would He not know those who are not His people? And also His Sovereignty- does that mean God's not fully in control of those who are His and those who are not? Yes I agree he specifically mentions Jacob and Esau, but I think his argument then moves on. Next he talks about Pharaoh in vs. 17, and Exodus is clear God is the one hardening Pharaoh's heart as well as Pharaoh hardening his own heart in order that he and the rest of Egypt may know who God is and that He is God and in charge. By vs. 19-24, I think the argument has moved on further to talk generally about people who would talk back to God ' one of you' is used in vs. 19 so to me it seems a general argument.

There are also passages I would point out like Ephesians 2, which talks about us all being spiritually dead on our own. The Scriptures say that nobody can become a Christian on their own in that case, we need the convicting power of the Spirit (John 16) as we hear the Gospel. So every time anybody becomes a Christian, it's a miracle God is doing in their hearts.

Yes, of course there's the passage that God wants everybody to be saved (2 Peter 3:8-9) that's why God delays the coming of Jesus, He is being patient and allowing more people time to turn and trust in Jesus. But this is an example of his moral will- it's entirely possible God wants them to be saved but knows that they cannot all be saved because it depends on their acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour (John 14:6). He also says this with the prophets and Israel- often God will express a desire for Israel to be saved, even though he knows many of them will not repent. So yes, I would say God certainly desires all to be saved, but He knows not all of them will be. It therefore makes sense I think that God knows those who are not saved, because otherwise that seems to imply He is not all knowing or not all sovereign.

[Dagnabbit]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
I'm not buying it - if you believed the bible was the instructions of God, jesus died for our sins yadda yadda yadda then you were a Christian. If you then decide that actually that's not true, then you've left the church and are no longer a Christian.
They were a Christian in the time they believed that, by pretty much every definition going. The concept of "stop being a member = never really a member" is completely ridiculous, if I were to become a vegetarian, that wouldn't mean I was never an omnivorous person.

You completely misunderstand what christ is lord is saying.

Christianity is infinitely more than just beliefs. It's a relationship which starts when you accept Him as saviour. This relationship is more than any relationship between two humans.


Here's two lines from In Christ Alone which are oft quoted:

"No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand"

[LionKingLover94]

(Murders someone when one is 30)
(On one's deathbed)
"I'm SOWWWYYYYY!!!! FORGIVE ME GOD? " (Dies)
God: Of course! You repented for your sins, therefore, come right in, brah. (Opens gates to heaven)
Salvation done.

[Dagnabbit]

(Original post by LionKingLover94)
(Murders someone when one is 30)
(On one's deathbed)
"I'm SOWWWYYYYY!!!! FORGIVE ME GOD? " (Dies)
God: Of course! You repented for your sins, therefore, come right in, brah. (Opens gates to heaven)
Salvation done.

Is this 'example' person one who has accepted Christ before they committed the murder? The way they asked for forgiveness makes it sound like their 'repentance' wasn't very severe and that they have a warped view of God, just sayin.

[Okashira]

(Original post by jmj)
I find your take on this very interesting- of course, feel free to disagree however I think if we consider that God has not prepared his wrath in advance we have potentially difficult implications- I think it raises questions about God knowing everything- why would He not know those who are not His people? And also His Sovereignty- does that mean God's not fully in control of those who are His and those who are not? Yes I agree he specifically mentions Jacob and Esau, but I think his argument then moves on. Next he talks about Pharaoh in vs. 17, and Exodus is clear God is the one hardening Pharaoh's heart as well as Pharaoh hardening his own heart in order that he and the rest of Egypt may know who God is and that He is God and in charge. By vs. 19-24, I think the argument has moved on further to talk generally about people who would talk back to God ' one of you' is used in vs. 19 so to me it seems a general argument.

There are also passages I would point out like Ephesians 2, which talks about us all being spiritually dead on our own. The Scriptures say that nobody can become a Christian on their own in that case, we need the convicting power of the Spirit (John 16) as we hear the Gospel. So every time anybody becomes a Christian, it's a miracle God is doing in their hearts.

Yes, of course there's the passage that God wants everybody to be saved (2 Peter 3:8-9) that's why God delays the coming of Jesus, He is being patient and allowing more people time to turn and trust in Jesus. But this is an example of his moral will- it's entirely possible God wants them to be saved but knows that they cannot all be saved because it depends on their acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour (John 14:6). He also says this with the prophets and Israel- often God will express a desire for Israel to be saved, even though he knows many of them will not repent. So yes, I would say God certainly desires all to be saved, but He knows not all of them will be. It therefore makes sense I think that God knows those who are not saved, because otherwise that seems to imply He is not all knowing or not all sovereign.

I believe what those verses are ultimately saying is that whether people reject God's will or receive God's will, God is still going to make His glory known to both them. Like with Pharaoh, before God hardened his heart, he didn't let the people go. He took away straw from the people, doubled their work load, and expected the people to have the same production as before. Of course even before that, when God met with Moses in the burning bush, He told Moses that He was sure the Pharaoh would not let his people go, even if an army would come against him to fight for the people of Israel. (Exodus ch 3 verse 19) So God told Moses that He will bring them out by His hand. So it was only after Pharaoh didn't heed God's voice, that God hardened his heart.

I believe that Pharaoh could have made the choice to let Israel go in the beginning, but that was not in his heart to do so. So God made an example out of Egypt, to show the world that He is God. (If Pharaoh would have heeded God's voice from the beginning, honoring the Lord, God would have made an example out of Egypt another way. Blessing them abudantly, showing His mercy to the world)

I agree that it is God who brings us to that realization of the need of salvation, and that is why the Gospel is being preached everywhere. Those who are being led by the Holy Spirit and walking in their born again spirit, preach God's word. God convicts those who listen. Yet I only want to put the emphasis on that God hasn't choosen anyone, before they were born, whether or not they would be saved. I also want to say that, our choices are not set in stone. That the choices I'm making today, wasn't made before I was born. That is why God looks on our heart and sees our condition, and from that, determines what we will do before hand. God knows all the paths we can take, and the exact future from every choice we make. Yet the choice itself, is ours to make.

[the bear]

Jesus came among us so we wouldn't have to spend our lives with this nonsensical talk... he left that to the Scribes and Pharisees...

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
You completely misunderstand what christ is lord is saying.

Christianity is infinitely more than just beliefs. It's a relationship which starts when you accept Him as saviour. This relationship is more than any relationship between two humans.


Here's two lines from In Christ Alone which are oft quoted:

"No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand"

Not at all - Christianity is a religion, if you're following it's teachings, then you're a Christian. If you stop following the teachings, then you're no longer a Christian. You can say all you want about personal relationship with it, but this whole "not really a Christian" is a pathetic cop-out, bordering on the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

[Dagnabbit]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
Not at all - Christianity is a religion, if you're following it's teachings, then you're a Christian. If you stop following the teachings, then you're no longer a Christian. You can say all you want about personal relationship with it, but this whole "not really a Christian" is a pathetic cop-out, bordering on the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

I'm sorry but we can't really go any further with this debate since this is a fundamental difference. Saying Christianity is a religion and just about following teachings is, for me, not even half the story I want to tell.

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
I'm sorry but we can't really go any further with this debate since this is a fundamental difference. Saying Christianity is a religion and just about following teachings is, for me, not even half the story I want to tell.

So what else is it about? Having a relationship with your chappie?

Something that pretty much comes under the teachings of the religion, no?



It's a religion, if you follow it and consider yourself a Christian - then you're a Christian - none of this "if you leave then you weren't a real Christian" nonsense, that's not the way the world works.

Let's suppose that Tony Blair was part of the Tories in his youth - does that he became Labour leader mean he wasn't ever really part of the Tory party? No, it doesn't.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
Not at all - Christianity is a religion, if you're following it's teachings, then you're a Christian. If you stop following the teachings, then you're no longer a Christian. You can say all you want about personal relationship with it, but this whole "not really a Christian" is a pathetic cop-out, bordering on the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Christianity is not a religion.


Posted via TSR iPhone App

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by .eXe)
Christianity is not a religion.


Posted via TSR iPhone App

Ok, so in that case you don't need your churches and we can use that land for something else?

Christianity is a religion, that's why it's the state religion (of the UK at least).

[.eXe]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
Ok, so in that case you don't need your churches and we can use that land for something else?

Christianity is a religion, that's why it's the state religion (of the UK at least).

No you are right, we don't actually need a church to be a Christian. A church is merely a physical symbol of a belief system.

But why should they be removed?

Are you suggesting that everything that isn't "required" must then be eliminated?

Then let's remove pizzas, burgers, sugar and caffeine too because last I checked...they aren't "required" for our existence.

Crude example but it's exactly the nonsense you're suggesting.

"Don't require it? Then eliminate it."

Nice suggestion Sherlock.

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by .eXe)
No you are right, we don't actually need a church to be a Christian. A church is merely a physical symbol of a belief system.

But why should they be removed?

Are you suggesting that everything that isn't "required" must then be eliminated?

Then let's remove pizzas, burgers, sugar and caffeine too because last I checked...they aren't "required" for our existence.

Crude example but it's exactly the nonsense you're suggesting.

"Don't require it? Then eliminate it."

Nice suggestion Sherlock.

Well, actually sugar is required, however I didn't say "if it's not required, get rid".

What I'm saying is, if you're not a religion, why have religious buildings?
I could just as easily asked - why do you have tax-exempt status if you're not a religion?

The point being, if you're not a religion - then stop acting like one. I don't have a church in which to worship the Fonz, that church doesn't have tax-exempt status - because it's not a religion. If you're not either, then don't dress yourself up as being one.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
Well, actually sugar is required, however I didn't say "if it's not required, get rid".

What I'm saying is, if you're not a religion, why have religious buildings?
I could just as easily asked - why do you have tax-exempt status if you're not a religion?

The point being, if you're not a religion - then stop acting like one. I don't have a church in which to worship the Fonz, that church doesn't have tax-exempt status - because it's not a religion. If you're not either, then don't dress yourself up as being one.

Elaborate on this sentence.