[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by .eXe)
Elaborate on this sentence.

I thought the tax exemption and church comments would have been clear - but also, disestablishment of the CoE as the official state religion (talking about the UK) stop with the leaders talking for everybody (as in the recent gay-marriage stuff)...

[.eXe]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
I thought the tax exemption and church comments would have been clear - but also, disestablishment of the CoE as the official state religion (talking about the UK) stop with the leaders talking for everybody (as in the recent gay-marriage stuff)...

Well see here's the thing. Society prefers black and white. So they see theists (or some variant of that) as following a religion and it sees atheists as not following a religion.

Why in your opinion, should only organized religions be allowed tax exemption?

In regards to the CoE spouting its opinions, I would agree with you. I've always maintained that the church shouldn't involve itself in matter of the state and I have never advocated for anything to the contrary.

Also, I don't care if the CoE is removed as the official state religion (as long as it doesn't get replaced with another belief system, because I am of the opinion that state should remain separate entirely).

And again: Christianity is not anti-gay. It's just the vocal idiots in mainstream churches that make it so. This is a major reason why I disagree with the establishment of a "pope".

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by .eXe)
Well see here's the thing. Society prefers black and white. So they see theists (or some variant of that) as following a religion and it sees atheists as not following a religion.

Why in your opinion, should only organized religions be allowed tax exemption?

In regards to the CoE spouting its opinions, I would agree with you. I've always maintained that the church shouldn't involve itself in matter of the state and I have never advocated for anything to the contrary.

Also, I don't care if the CoE is removed as the official state religion (as long as it doesn't get replaced with another belief system, because I am of the opinion that state should remain separate entirely).

And again: Christianity is not anti-gay. It's just the vocal idiots in mainstream churches that make it so. This is a major reason why I disagree with the establishment of a "pope".

Don't think I said that organised religion should be allowed tax exempt status - only thing that should be allowed that is charities. However, with the set-up as it is in most countries, those recognised as religions are allowed tax exempt status - hence, Christianity is given tax exempt status, while Scientology (in most countries - I think the US now recognises it) is not.
So while it's set up that way, if you don't want to be seen as a religion because you claim not to be one, then give up your tax-exempt status gained from being a religion.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
Don't think I said that organised religion should be allowed tax exempt status - only thing that should be allowed that is charities. However, with the set-up as it is in most countries, those recognised as religions are allowed tax exempt status - hence, Christianity is given tax exempt status, while Scientology (in most countries - I think the US now recognises it) is not.
So while it's set up that way, if you don't want to be seen as a religion because you claim not to be one, then give up your tax-exempt status gained from being a religion.

Personally I could care less if our tax exempt status is gone or not.

It's not like a) it personally affects me at all and b) is in any way a requirement of the belief

Why are you trying to personally hold me responsible for the exempt status? It's not something I've dreamt up and established.

Also, I'll have you know that whether it's a religion or not, many Christian churches/organizations assist greatly in charitable causes. For example the Salvation Army. So this argument about tax exemption only being for charities is nonsense because most churches I know are quite closely involved in charitable efforts.

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by .eXe)
Personally I could care less if our tax exempt status is gone or not.

It's not like a) it personally affects me at all and b) is in any way a requirement of the belief

Why are you trying to personally hold me responsible for the exempt status? It's not something I've dreamt up and established.

Also, I'll have you know that whether it's a religion or not, many Christian churches/organizations assist greatly in charitable causes. For example the Salvation Army. So this argument about tax exemption only being for charities is nonsense because most churches I know are quite closely involved in charitable efforts.

I'm not - I'm using you to refer to Christianity.

Maybe so, but the Church itself is not a charity.

[Newbie123]

Faustus, repent!

[LionKingLover94]

(Original post by Dagnabbit)
Is this 'example' person one who has accepted Christ before they committed the murder? The way they asked for forgiveness makes it sound like their 'repentance' wasn't very severe and that they have a warped view of God, just sayin.

Fair enough.

[Carter78]

The OP title sounds like exactly the sort of pick-up line used by Catholic priests...

[jmj]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I don't come on here very often.

(Original post by Okashira)
I believe what those verses are ultimately saying is that whether people reject God's will or receive God's will, God is still going to make His glory known to both them. Like with Pharaoh, before God hardened his heart, he didn't let the people go. He took away straw from the people, doubled their work load, and expected the people to have the same production as before. Of course even before that, when God met with Moses in the burning bush, He told Moses that He was sure the Pharaoh would not let his people go, even if an army would come against him to fight for the people of Israel. (Exodus ch 3 verse 19) So God told Moses that He will bring them out by His hand. So it was only after Pharaoh didn't heed God's voice, that God hardened his heart.

I believe that Pharaoh could have made the choice to let Israel go in the beginning, but that was not in his heart to do so. So God made an example out of Egypt, to show the world that He is God. (If Pharaoh would have heeded God's voice from the beginning, honoring the Lord, God would have made an example out of Egypt another way. Blessing them abudantly, showing His mercy to the world)

I agree that the purpose is to glorify God, whether that is people's rejection or acceptance of Him. I also agree that God made an example out of Egypt in order to reveal Himself. If Pharaoh would have heeded God's voice, then God would have been merciful- but God always knew Pharaoh would reject Him, as you yourself say above. Doesn't that show God already knows the decisions we make? He knew Pharoah would never listen.

(Original post by Okashira)
I agree that it is God who brings us to that realization of the need of salvation, and that is why the Gospel is being preached everywhere. Those who are being led by the Holy Spirit and walking in their born again spirit, preach God's word. God convicts those who listen.

Agree with everything you've said here

(Original post by Okashira)
Yet I only want to put the emphasis on that God hasn't choosen anyone, before they were born, whether or not they would be saved. I also want to say that, our choices are not set in stone. That the choices I'm making today, wasn't made before I was born.

What's your Biblical backing for this bit? We've already used this example before, but God knew Jacob and Esau and the choices they would make before they were even born (Romans 9). Unless you believe Jacob and Esau are an anomaly here- but other passages of Scripture seem to suggest this is not the case e.g. Ephesians 1:3 tells us God chose us in Him before the creation of the world- He knows who are is before He creates the world. Ephesians 1:3 seems to be very clearly saying God does choose us. Again, what is your backing? Thanks

(Original post by Okashira)
That is why God looks on our heart and sees our condition, and from that, determines what we will do before hand. God knows all the paths we can take, and the exact future from every choice we make. Yet the choice itself, is ours to make.

I'm trying to get my head around exactly what you mean here. Do you mean the idea that God knows each path we could take and the consequences of those decisions, but that He doesn't know which path we will take- that is up to us?

If that's your view, then of course I respect it but I struggle to reconcile that to God's character being all-knowing and all-sovereign. If He doesn't know the choices we make before we make them, how is he then all knowing? If the choice is entirely up to us then how is he sovereign?

I'm not saying we don't have free will- we are not mindless robots, we make decisions and we are accountable for them but I also think those decisions are under the sovereign, all knowing control of God. It's a tension of two things that look opposed but both seem equally true from Scripture. In fact I think we see this working out in the example of Judas.

Jesus knew full well Judas was going to betray them- He said that one of his disciples would betray Him and that it would be better for that disciple to not have been born. So here we have Jesus knowing full well what Judas was going to do and the consequences- but Judas chose to do it and was fully accountable for what he did. So we have on the one hand, our own human responsibility for sin but on the other hand we have God being entirely in charge of the situation.

What do you think?

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
You year what you want to hear then walk away.
If you had stayed in that passage a little longer you would read:

"And they spake unto him the word of the Lord" (v32)
i.e. they thought it necessary to explain what it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". The earlier examples and the words of the Lord Jesus himself show that this means receiving the Spirit, with the sign of speaking in tongues, and getting baptised.

The same detail isn't repeated here because normal rules of communication apply. If your lecturer mentions something that was details previously you don't need him/her to repeat the same detail.

Like I said, you havn't understood what it means to believe on Jesus or confess him, and you have taken no correction which shows an attitude that will waste my time. Unless you have a change of heart I won't be saying any more to you.

John 6:47-51

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."


John 12:42-50

"Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."

John 9:35-38

"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

[Christ Is Lord]

http://www.cavaliersonly.com/christi..._curtis_hutson

[NJA]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Do you understand and agree with Jesus and his apostles regarding what this means in practise?
Otherwise it is just a slogan that can mean something different today?

Jesus explained that such people will receive His Spirit (John 7:39), know the day (14:17-21), do the works (miracles, signs following) and greater works (14:12).

He ways they "will" speak in tongues (Mark 16:17), something none had done up until then, though all the other signs listed had followed (compare Luke 10:9, 19).

So, when do believers on Jesus speak in tongues?
Answer: when they receive His Spirit: Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46 (John 3:8, Galatians 4:6).

Indeed, this is how it was known precisely when believers in Jesus receive His Spirit!

[cl_steele]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
http://www.cavaliersonly.com/christi..._curtis_hutson

why do you insist on spamming threads with all your cods wallop?

[gltw]

(Original post by NJA)
Do you understand and agree with Jesus and his apostles regarding what this means in practise?
Otherwise it is just a slogan that can mean something different today?

Jesus explained that such people will receive His Spirit (John 7:39), know the day (14:17-21), do the works (miracles, signs following) and greater works (14:12).

He ways they "will" speak in tongues (Mark 16:17), something none had done up until then, though all the other signs listed had followed (compare Luke 10:9, 19).

So, when do believers on Jesus speak in tongues?
Answer: when they receive His Spirit: Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46 (John 3:8, Galatians 4:6).

Indeed, this is how it was known precisely when believers in Jesus receive His Spirit!

You see NJA you should not have to practice anything to get into heaven. Nothing we say or do can get us into heaven. Believing that Jesus was crucified is not enough either, or that he was raised from the dead. God gives us salvation of his own will, not our own. He gives us the new life, the living water within, God the Holy Spirit. He gives us these things as a free gift when we trust in what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross, when we trust that Jesus Christ did everything for us that we might have eternal life now. It's got nothing to do with pentecost or performing miraculous signs. Its all about Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What are the signs we are saved. Paul says this 2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Now if tongues were the sign, why would Paul say test yourselves? There would be no need to for they would know whether they spoke in tongues or not, the question would be irrelevant. What he is saying is examine your life to see if it is bearing the fruits of the spirit or not. If it was tongues there would be no need for self examination.

I plead with you to look to Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Don't rely on what you have done (speak in tongues) but on what Jesus Christ done. Study the scriptures without the bias of the cult that has infected your soul. Like all the cults you believe your church is the only way to be saved. Look at the symptoms. Look at your organisation and compare them to mormons and JWs, you'll see the similarities if you look closely.

But I know you wont. For 2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV (14) And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

[NJA]

(Original post by gltw)
... He gives us the new life, the living water within, God the Holy Spirit. ... It's got nothing to do with pentecost or performing miraculous signs. Its all about Jesus Christ.

Saying that receiving the Spirit has nothing to do with Pentecost or the Spirit producing signs is utter blindness!

(Original post by gltw)
Paul says this 2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV Examine yourselves ...Now if tongues were the sign, why would Paul say test yourselves?

Tongues is God's sign of receiving His Spirit, in 2 Corinthians 13 Paul is talking to people who have long since received the Spirit / salvation, so he is telling them to make sure they are living by the faith they have received.

The fact that you cannot rightly divide the scriptures again shows that to you, the bible is an alien book, you cannot discern what passages refer to what, and even the verses (such as Ephesians 2:8) that you think you understand, you don't, because that grace is only entered into by receiving The Spirit of grace, accompanied by "supplications" (Zech. 12:10, Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46).

[gltw]

(Original post by NJA)
Saying that receiving the Spirit has nothing to do with Pentecost or the Spirit producing signs is utter blindness!

Again your cult is teaching you that being given the spirit of God and that being baptised in the Holy Spirit is the same thing. Read your Bible. They are not

(Original post by NJA)
Tongues is God's sign of receiving His Spirit, in 2 Corinthians 13 Paul is talking to people who have long since received the Spirit / salvation, so he is telling them to make sure they are living by the faith they have received.

You are not looking at the context of what Paul is saying in v3, he is specifically dealing with the Corinthians questioning his apostleship and the truth of his teaching. In v5 he is saying they must test themselves to see if they are in the faith, grounded on the truth of the work of Jesus Christ because if they deny Paul's apostleship they deny the truth of Jesus Christ's death thus are going to hell. Its got nothing to do with making sure they are living like Christians but whether they are true Christians or not.

(Original post by NJA)
The fact that you cannot rightly divide the scriptures again shows that to you, the bible is an alien book, you cannot discern what passages refer to what, and even the verses (such as Ephesians 2:8) that you think you understand, you don't, because that grace is only entered into by receiving The Spirit of grace, accompanied by "supplications" (Zech. 12:10, Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46).

You should not need to divide scriptures but deal with what the scriptures say. Not allow a cult to interpret them for you.

Zech 12:10 was fulfilled when Jesus Christ died on the cross, the comforter was given to all those with faith. You are now interpreting that supplications must be the gift of tongues, even though this is in the OT. It is very obvious that supplications is intercessory prayer.

Acts 2:4 shows that the spirit is only in those who have been saved by grace alone through their faith. NOWHERE in Acts does it say that pentecost is the model of salvation. They already had saving faith. They were the church. They were baptised in the Holy spirit as believers.

Acts 2:33 affirms that the spirit is poured on believers, a separate experience to the indwelling spirit. The bible describes them as two, therefore they are two.

Acts 10:44-46 - Again the spirit was poured.

It is clear when the spirit is poured onto believers then often they speak in tongues (being baptised in the Holy Spirit Acts 1:5). But there is an indwelling spirit 1 Cor 3:16, 1Cor 7:40, Eph 3:16, I could go on.

The first sign of a cult member is they deny that their church is a cult. Ask a Mormon or JW, they will tell you truthfully that they are not a cult.

You throw around the same scriptures every time. And every time I address them you move on and ignore what they really say, in their context. Even Satan can use the scriptures.

[NJA]

(Original post by gltw)
Again your cult is teaching you that being given the spirit of God and that being baptised in the Holy Spirit is the same thing. Read your Bible. They are not

You say they are not, please give ONE example where someone "received the Holy Spirit" but later got baptised in the Holy Spirit.

(Original post by gltw)
...Its got nothing to do with making sure they are living like Christians but whether they are true Christians or not.

Nonsense, Paul Affirms at the beginning of the 1st letter that they are Christians and affirms it with the 2nd letter, you neither understand nor believe these things.
But then have you received what they had received to enable you to?

(Original post by gltw)
Acts 2:4 shows that the spirit is only in those who have been saved by grace alone through their faith. NOWHERE in Acts does it say that pentecost is the model of salvation. They already had saving faith. They were the church. They were baptised in the Holy spirit as believers.

This is where you miss New Testament salvation.

You assume that beliebvers have received the Spirit, the disciples hadn't because he was not given until Jesus had returned to The Father (John 7:39, 16:7)

Neither had later believers:
"they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (Acts 8:12-16)

Also, the scriptures say that the baptism in the Spirit is how people are made members of the Church:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. " (1 Cor. 12:13)

It is referred to as "the beginning":

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 11:15-16)

- the beginning of what?

[gltw]

(Original post by NJA)
You say they are not, please give ONE example where someone "received the Holy Spirit" but later got baptised in the Holy Spirit.

The disciples! John 15:3 ESV Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.

They were made clean by the word Jesus spoke unto them, relieving the power of sin, applied by the spirit of God. We can only be made clean when we have the truth and its application by the spirit of God. Then they were baptised in the Holy Spirit at pentecost.

(Original post by NJA)
Nonsense, Paul Affirms at the beginning of the 1st letter that they are Christians and affirms it with the 2nd letter, you neither understand nor believe these things.
But then have you received what they had received to enable you to?

You are not reading the passage! You ignore the things of God in order to strengthen your belief in what your cult teaches.

How is it possible to be a Christian and reject the teachings of Jesus Christ? It is clear that there were many Christians in Corinth but there were others who clearly were not. He is dealing with those rejecting his apostleship, if you read the context of this chapter.

(Original post by NJA)
This is where you miss New Testament salvation.

You assume that beliebvers have received the Spirit, the disciples hadn't because he was not given until Jesus had returned to The Father (John 7:39, 16:7)

You have twisted John 7:39. it says "Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

So when was Jesus glorified? After Jesus Christ's death when he went to the father before his resurrection. Joh_16:7, “It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you.” See also Joh 7:8-12; Joh 14:15-16, Joh 14:26. Compare Eph 4:8-11. On the cross he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" . He went immediately into heaven on the cross. He did not go to hell like the creeds state. He was resurrected afterwards. In the Greek ἀνάστασις (resurrection) always refers to bodily resurrection never a spiritual one. Therefore Jesus was Glorified at his death on the cross. Thus the disciples experienced true salvation before pentecost.

(Original post by NJA)
Neither had later believers:
"they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (Acts 8:12-16)

Also, the scriptures say that the baptism in the Spirit is how people are made members of the Church:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. " (1 Cor. 12:13)

Yes. Look closer at what that verse says "drink into one spirit", in that cup we have received faith by God's grace applied by the spirit he has given becoming a single body of believers (communion of the saints)

(Original post by NJA)
It is referred to as "the beginning":

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 11:15-16)

- the beginning of what?

Peter is recalling the events of pentecost referring to the beginning of the church. You are attempting to twist it to say that at the beginning of individual salvation is speaking in tongues which is not what they are saying at all.

It is interesting that you talk about salvation yet you never refer to what Jesus Christ did on the cross. Your cult teaches another gospel, corrupt. Imitating Christianity closely. The closer the cult is to Christianity the greater the deception.

Even on your cults website there are 8 steps to salvation! In those steps it does not even include believing in Jesus Christ for your salvation, it only briefly covers that together with some other things at the top. It even says you must be baptised to be saved! And that you must support the church. Even its title "What must I do to be saved" is corrupt. It has got nothing to do with what you can do for God but for what God has done for you. Can't you see that. Your cult is full of false teaching. I could not find whether or not you believe Jesus Christ is God. Do you? Surly that would be very important, more important than british-israel nonsense or the all seeing eye. Your cults website has nothing of who God is, his nature. Who Jesus Christ really is, what he done for mankind. It is mostly about prophecy and the sensuality of "gifts" that are assumed to be from the LORD.

Galatians 1:6-12 KJV I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (10) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. (11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. (12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.



Do you believe in salvation by grace alone through faith or not?

[NJA]

(Original post by gltw)
They were made clean by the word Jesus spoke unto them, relieving the power of sin, applied by the spirit of God.
We can only be made clean when we have the truth and its application by the spirit of God. Then they were baptised in the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

You are saying they had received the Spirit, this is false, the Spirit was not given until after Jesus had returned to The Father, as shown by John 7:39, 14:17-20, 16:7, Acts 2:33, Galatians 4:13-14.

These and other verses such as Acts 10:44-48, 11:14-18 show that the term is synonymous with being baptsed in the Spirit.

John 15:3 does not say they received the Spirit, indeed the other verses show that they could not have done so.

The baptism in the Spirit, speaking in tongues = receiving the Spirit = being "born again"

There are not different classes/types of Christian, those with this and those without.

If you are without you are simply not a Christian (Romans 8:8-9), you are still "in the flesh", trying to be something you are not, wasting your time, mis-representing Jesus and leading ignorant people astray.

(Original post by gltw)
... So when was Jesus glorified? After Jesus Christ's death when he went to the father before his resurrection.

Where does the bible say this?

How do you explain John 20:17, where Jesus is resurrected and says:
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

(Original post by gltw)
Yes. Look closer at what that verse says "drink into one spirit", in that cup we have received faith by God's grace applied by the spirit he has given becoming a single body of believers (communion of the saints)

So you believe that the wine at the last supper was literally the Holy Spirit for them to "drink into one spirit"?

(Original post by gltw)
Peter is recalling the events of pentecost referring to the beginning of the church. ..

So, you believe people receive salvation before they become members of the church?

(Original post by gltw)
Do you believe in salvation by grace alone through faith or not?

Of copurse, but we know the grace of God in truth, it is what Jesus was full of - the Spirit of God, his nature, which you only have once you have received His "Spirit of grace and of supplications" (Zech. 12:10, compare Acts 2:4)

You do not minister that grace, which gives people power over sin.

[gltw]

(Original post by NJA)
You are saying they had received the Spirit, this is false, the Spirit was not given until after Jesus had returned to The Father, as shown by John 7:39, 14:17-20, 16:7, Acts 2:33, Galatians 4:13-14..

But he returned unto the Father at his death. His work had finished. He had achieved what no other being could have.

(Original post by NJA)
These and other verses such as Acts 10:44-48, 11:14-18 show that the term is synonymous with being baptsed in the Spirit.

All he is saying here is that those who have been baptised in the Holy Spirit should then be baptised in water and those baptised in water shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
John 15:3 does not say they received the Spirit, indeed the other verses show that they could not have done so.

(Original post by NJA)
The baptism in the Spirit, speaking in tongues = receiving the Spirit = being "born again"

You are making this out in your own mind. It does not say this anywhere in the bible. You are saying baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. It is not! Being born again is not the same as baptism of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, in some circumstances as clear from text above, those not baptised in the Holy Spirit are required to be baptised in water first in order to be saved. Which is not biblical. You don't need water baptism in order to be saved.

(Original post by NJA)
There are not different classes/types of Christian, those with this and those without.

Read 1cor12! There is one body of Christians with different gifts. Not all Christians have the same gifts. Do you have ALL the gifts from God?

(Original post by NJA)
If you are without you are simply not a Christian (Romans 8:8-9), you are still "in the flesh", trying to be something you are not, wasting your time, mis-representing Jesus and leading ignorant people astray.

You are adding in tongues to Romans, they are never mentioned. You are adding into the bible what your cult has told you. Nowhere in Romans does it ever state you must have certain gifts or you are going to hell. It says that all those in Christ have salvation, regardless of their abilities for their works. It is all to do with the condition of our heart and nothing to do with what we say.

(Original post by NJA)
Where does the bible say this?

How do you explain John 20:17, where Jesus is resurrected and says:
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

What he is saying is that he was not going to depart immediately but soon therefore you can enjoy my presence as my disciples; you cut out the rest of the verse which puts it into context. Is that not clear?

The Bible says it where I quoted 5 texts showing my point. Chiefly that Jesus said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!"

(Original post by NJA)
So you believe that the wine at the last supper was literally the Holy Spirit for them to "drink into one spirit"?

What? What has the Lord's Supper got to do with receiving salvation?

(Original post by NJA)
So, you believe people receive salvation before they become members of the church?

You enter into membership of the invisible church when you are saved by God's grace through your faith. Then you come into membership of your local church after baptism.

(Original post by NJA)
Of copurse, but we know the grace of God in truth, it is what Jesus was full of - the Spirit of God, his nature, which you only have once you have received His "Spirit of grace and of supplications" (Zech. 12:10, compare Acts 2:4)

So was Jesus God or just full of God's spirit?

So you only receive grace after you reach out to God?

(Original post by NJA)
You do not minister that grace, which gives people power over sin.

Christians have power over sin by the spirit within. But you can appear to have power over sin yet still go to hell. You can have a changed life and still go to hell. Look at the Mormons, they live good lives, are nice people, caring neighbours, they pray allot, they talk about god to people, they devote their lives to what they believe in. But they do not have a relationship with the true Jesus Christ. That is all that matters, not how much you sin.